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Clear as mud: the Father and the Son are one-in-the-same, totally inseparable. The Father can have his Son tortured, and killed, for whatever unfathomable reasons, and that is <em>glorious</em>, <em>wonderful</em> and a sign of abiding love.  The Father has his fully grown Son put to death, and everyone sings <em>Hosanna</em>.  BUT, a woman and her embedded embryo are <b>two separate entities</b> never to be confused or considered <em>one</em> under any circumstances.  A <em>woman</em> who chooses abortion is an abomination in the eyes of the Abrahamic God of filicide.   Oh boy, what next?

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speckleasmePurplatiousPopsicleStickJamesEthannerzhulikCharleybearTrishVicZincclayslayerChuckTomTiffanee

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Ethan
Clear as mud: the Father and the Son are one-in-the-same, totally inseparable. The Father can have his Son tortured, and killed, for whatever unfathomable reasons, and that is glorious, wonderful and a sign of abiding love. The Father has his fully grown Son put to death, and everyone sings Hosanna. BUT, a woman and her embedded embryo are two separate entities never to be confused or considered one under any circumstances. A woman who chooses abortion is an abomination in the eyes of the Abrahamic God of filicide. Oh boy, what next?

Top Comment

This post, coming from an avowed atheist, is a baited load of ****. I want to be friendly, but you specifically and deliberately post this kind of babble to get a rise. You have no understanding of what you are speaking because you don't even believe in God. You actually talk about God more in your posts and comments I think than I do!
And you are not looking for any answers when you do something like this.
Posts like this definitely follow your other comments and statements about loving Jesus and practicing His teachings - don't you agree? This post is a clear example of blatant disrespect and antagonism towards one specific brand of faith - Christianity. You have become a walking contradiction and really should either get on board with God or really and truly stop believing in Him as your label atheist claims.

+22 See / Add Replies

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

Comments

The father should not harm his son in those ways and has no right to do so. Personally I know this all too well. Frankly I cannot imagine why you would say a father can do such things, as I am aware of no precedent for him to behave that way toward his son.

0 Reply

Purplatious Purplatious

In response to “The father should not harm his son in those...

Only the biblical precedent. (btw this is sarcasm)

011 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “Only the biblical precedent. (btw this is sarcasm)

The what now?

Oh, wait, so you're saying the pro-life stance contradicts the Bible?

I thought you were just saying the pro-life stance is wrong.

011 Reply

Purplatious Purplatious

In response to “The what now? Oh, wait, so you're saying the...

Yes, just saying there is a contradiction when the arguments is a mother should not kill a child when the bible have several reference to sacrificing offspring and siblings to appease the bible's god.

+121 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “Yes, just saying there is a contradiction...

I see. I can see the contradiction here, and it is troubling. But what, then, of pro-choice Christians, or of pro-life non-Christians? Or are we only concerned specifically with pro-life Christians here?

+11 Reply

Purplatious Purplatious

In response to “I see. I can see the contradiction here, and...

Good questions. I am not concerned much, just pointing out the oddity of saying a dad can sacrifice his son but a woman cannot abort an embryo.

-11 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “Good questions. I am not concerned much...

I see. Changing my vote; I can certainly agree with that much. I do agree that this is a strong argument against anyone who would actually simultaneously agree with both of the two stances you're saying contradict each other. I know of no such people, but I suppose I can lay that dissonance aside.

-11 Reply

Purplatious Purplatious

In response to “Good questions. I am not concerned much...

how at the "Bitter Waters" test In the bible? that was also Abortion

0 Reply

clayslayer clayslayer

you said "Abrahamic God of filicide"

but Muslims don't believe that God can have children
I think Jews may be on the same boat

nor do we believe that Jesus (pbuh) died/was crucified
we believe he was saved

one of the definitions of crucifixion is "severe and unjust punishment or suffering; persecution."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crucifixion

since God is fair
it doesn't make sense for Him to punish unjustly like the definition says

Muslims also believe that each individual is only responsible for his/her own sins
so crucifixion and Original Sin have no place with us

SO IN YOUR FACE

..............................................................

I wanted to defend God
the Abrahamic God as you put it

-111 Reply

fuzala fuzala

In response to “you said "Abrahamic God of...

And well done.

-111 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “And well done.

As Abraham's hand was "stayed" I do believe Issac's survival exonerates Abe himself. And I am not sure if god killing, for example, all the first born son's of Egypt (or Samaria, or Tappalua or Amalek) counts either.

-11 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “As Abraham's hand was "stayed" I do...

Sacrifice

I should note that in Islam
it's Ishmael who was to be sacrificed

Jews and Christians believe it was Issac

Also
"Two, the Quran teaches that the sacrifice was not the decision of Abraham's alone; but his son's too, as Ishmael was equally prepared to willingly submit to God's command for the sacrifice."
http://www.onislam.net/english/...ge/442710.html

a fetus does not give consent

GOTCHA WEEEEEEEEE

one question
I don't understand what is meant by "stayed"
what does that mean?
..........................................

Egypt

"After being told by a fortune teller that he would be overtaken by a man from the Children of Israel, Pharaoh ordered all male babies to be executed.

The Noble Quran describes the horrific life of the Children of Israel as follows,"



[And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.] (Al-Baqarah 2:49)
http://www.onislam.net/english/...am/440852.html

so it was Pharaoh who did that

..........................................

as for the other places
I have never heard them before

I'll need more information before I can defend

0 Reply

fuzala fuzala

In response to “**//Sacrifice//** I should note that in...

Not sure why/what you are defending? You have provided enough evidence that the God of Islam did not order the killing of his only son. The god of Abraham was perhaps a poor choice of wording. at the time it seemed better than "jesus's alleged dad."

Anyways, in Catholic tradition Zadkiel the angle reached out and "stayed" (i.e., held or stopped) the hand of Abraham as he was about to plunge the knife into his son. I get that that is not a literal reading of Genesis which is usually interpreted to say an angle "called out" to Abraham and told him to stop. But the image of the angel Kadkiel appearing out of thin air and staying the hand in mid-motion is so Hollywood I cannot resist it.

Not sure if the other places are mentioned in Quran, here are biblical passages
2 Kings 15:16
1 Samuel 15:3
Hosea 13:16

0 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “Not sure why/what you are defending? You...

oh, okay
I see
thank you

you said you weren't sure if Egypt counted
so I explained how it was Pharaoh who did that

I did not find the other places you listed

0 Reply

fuzala fuzala

In response to “oh, okay I see thank you you said you...

also in exodus, the Pharaoh does order the killing of Jew's firstborns (which is how Moses come to the Pharaoh's daughter as a refugee from that attack.)

However the final plague wrought by the god of the Jew's was also "the death of the first born sons" The ritual of the lamb's blood smeared on the doorpost allowed that god to identify and therefore "passover" the homes of the Jew's (thereby sparing their offspring from the plague which killed the Pharaoh's son and all other firstborns including humans and cattle.)

0 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “also in exodus, the Pharaoh does order the...

oh so that's what you were referring to

I didn't now about passover
I just knew of it as a holiday

0 Reply

fuzala fuzala

To support your case, a biblical quote that does not consider an unborn baby to be a full life.

First for some context, read Exodus 21:12

Then Exodus 21:22 for the killer. (And it actually pertains to death so that pun is valid!)

-11 Reply

speckleasme speckleasme

In response to “To support your case, a biblical quote that...

I don't get it (wary)

I thought that one was killing someone who has murdered?

+11 Reply

fuzala fuzala

In response to “I don't get it (wary) I thought that one...

Wait what do you mean by that?

0 Reply

speckleasme speckleasme

In response to “Wait what do you mean by that?

I think you should explain to me what the verse means

I don't understand how it relates to abortion

0 Reply

fuzala fuzala

In response to “I think you should explain to me what the...

Well the first one says that if a man kills another man, he shall be killed. So the penalty for murder is execution.

Then it says that if a man causes a miscarriage, or he kills an unborn baby (depending on the translation) he shall be FINED. not killed. Therefore, the bible (this section at least) does not consider a fetus to be a full life.

-11 Reply

speckleasme speckleasme

In response to “Well the first one says that if a man kills...

OHHHH

I didn't see that there were two verses
I only saw the first one

it's true though
killing someone who is born is more reprehensible than one that is unborn

I don't know if it has to do with "full life" though
I'm not sure what that phrase means actually

-11 Reply

fuzala fuzala

In response to “Well the first one says that if a man kills...

Considering that the Jews of old did not even name their children until several days after they were born (a practice not uncommon in ancient people), this doesn't surprise me. In those days, infants died all the time. It was commonplace. People would have multiple children knowing that some of them would die. So the idea of killing an unborn child does not seem so heinous back then. I think our modern perspective has changed some of these attitudes. Additionally, Exodus 21:22 refers to the death of an infant as a casualty, not as a result of a conscious decision to end the infant's life. So not a direct comparison.

-11 Reply

Logan Logan

This post, coming from an avowed atheist, is a baited load of ****. I want to be friendly, but you specifically and deliberately post this kind of babble to get a rise. You have no understanding of what you are speaking because you don't even believe in God. You actually talk about God more in your posts and comments I think than I do!
And you are not looking for any answers when you do something like this.
Posts like this definitely follow your other comments and statements about loving Jesus and practicing His teachings - don't you agree? This post is a clear example of blatant disrespect and antagonism towards one specific brand of faith - Christianity. You have become a walking contradiction and really should either get on board with God or really and truly stop believing in Him as your label atheist claims.

+22 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “This post, coming from an avowed atheist, is...

I just don't understand this mentality that someone who points out issues with Christianity or any religion is somehow automatically "bashing" or is it at least, "contradictory". I know you seem to have some obsession with atheists "talking about God", well guess what, you've posted a lot of posts about evolution, so what's the deal there?

-22 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “I just don't understand this mentality that...

Thank you Logan, I could not have responded more clearly. Pointing out what appears to me to be at worst contradiction in logic and at best a double standard does not seem to admission that a god exists.

-11 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

You are both trying to "understand" something you deny the existence of. I can take the Bible and "prove" that IT is God's Word and was given to us by divine inspiration. I, along with other Christians, accept and have endorsed that. The atheist denies the existence of God, and yet tries to use God's book to either attack those who believe it, or ridicule and further look for ways to tear it down and find "contradictions." Since you don't believe the God of the Bible, and it is the same as myth or fairytale, why do you waste so much time looking for ways to criticize it? You also do not believe in Santa, unicorns, or ghosts, but I never see you making posts about all the fallacies or inconsistencies that you find with those "imaginary" friends.
I could quote all kinds of Bible verses to you, but the last time I did, you made it clear that the Gospels authenticity were suspect, and that I quoted all verses out of context. Easy for a person to say who does not believe in God to begin with.
You atheists are completely not even in the same realm when arguing religion. If there is no God, then there can't be religions that are built around deity figures. And yet, more people in the world choose to believe and accept God and a religion, while you maintain He does not exist! You can not have it both ways. If there is no God, then you would not be obsessed and continually taking shots at Him and His followers (because logically and according to your own definition there is no such thing.) But the fact is, you KNOW millions of people DO believe and do follow, and they have no problem with it whatsoever. Logan has made past comments that it has gotten his attention that millions would follow and even die for their faith. That is an astute observation. There IS something more to it than just printed words in an ancient text.
The Bible is great literature, and can be read by anyone for sure. But it is also a spiritual book, requiring a re-birthing of your own spirit by God to be able to understand its real and true message. It is God's book to His people. Since you don't claim to even believe in God's existence, the book could not possibly reveal its meaning to you (since you could not possibly be one of His own). Christians are called the "the children of God" all throughout Scripture. God's children hear and understand His words as His voice. Again, you are not able to enjoy such "nonsense," and yet you so desperately want to attack the beliefs and "double standards" of every illogical half-witted believer!
And I have never seen similar posts of this nature from either of you regarding ANY other faith. Why is that? Would you make the same criticism and attack against Islam or ANY other deity based religious faith? If not, why? Certainly your mental capacities are capable of finding inconsistencies and fallacies in each and every one.
And what is so amazing, the very God you deny, IS a source of constant interest, fascination, and study by both of you. So if there is no God, you sure spend a great deal of time, effort, and energy fighting against and pointing out the nothingness of nothing! You are spending your life fighting against and criticizing a "straw man" - which makes you appear to be either crazy or disingenuous. If something doesn't exist, then stop telling all of us who already believe it does, to try and see things through a closed unbelieving mindset! When you have "seen the Light" you no longer want to return to the darkness. A non-believer IS in darkness (according to the Bible), and can not see the Light. And yet you continuously try to darken the Light of a believer with your ignorance and insults. However, any and every attempt will fail. Jesus Christ died on that cross to pay for the sins of the world, and then resurrected bodily from the tomb to shatter and destroy the hold that sin and death had on this world. Those who accept Him and His payment for their sins can and are reborn (the term born again is used in the Bible), and become a new creature in Christ. Saul of Tarsus became Paul of the New Testament, and he had a rebirthing experience. He was never the same, and ended up penning a good portion of the New Testament. Every atheist must start exactly where any believer has - at the foot of the cross. If you fail to start at square one, all other attempts at trying to "understand" are complete failure.
I refuse to continue arguing religion with either of you. You at least got one thing right in this post: "clear as mud." To you, I can understand why you would have that problem. For me, there is no problem at all, and your post is an insult and slap in the fact to all Christians. For one who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, you have missed the message and pathway by hundreds of miles!

-11 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “You are both trying to "understand"...

FSFL, I don't have time to read this now but I will. Your first sentence needs response however. I am simply saying "I DON'T understand." I said it is as clear as mud. You are wrong that I am trying to understand god, I am trying to understand the logic of people who say abortion is wrong but then tell me about how their god had his son killed. I am not interested in understand something I don't believe in, I am curious about people who use, what appears to me to be, flawed logic. I'll be back in a while to read your comment.

-11 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “FSFL, I don't have time to read this now but...

But you used a God concept from the Bible to make your comparison by/with. Therefore, you clearly were not trying to just understand abortion.
If God is not real and the Bible is just mythical fairytale (which is NOT my position), then you can't use it for analogies. If it is not real already, then its contents are purely storybook pablum.
I believe the Bible wholeheartedly, and the Father/Son issue is something that I understand and accept. You made a comment to Purp. saying that your post was clearly sarcasm (which I picked up the moment I read it), and I just can not stand to see you choose a God example to understand your dilemma. The Father/Son concept is a God concept, so you obviously are toying with God enough to pit one idea against another through a God filter. If He was not in your mind, then you could not possibly be using Him as a logical example. If he is not real or doesn't exist, then you would not even think of anything associated with Him or His book to make an Earthly analogy.

0 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “You are both trying to "understand"...

"You are both trying to "understand" something you deny the existence of."

Wrong. I am trying to understand a religion. I am trying to understand why people do what they do. People exist. Religions exist. Bibles exist. Those things can be proven, observed, and investigated. I do not need to believe in God to understand the actions of humans.

"I can take the Bible and "prove" that IT is God's Word and was given to us by divine inspiration. I, along with other Christians, accept and have endorsed that. The atheist denies the existence of God, and yet tries to use God's book to either attack those who believe it, or ridicule and further look for ways to tear it down and find "contradictions.""

I know you believe that any disagreement with your beliefs is an "attack" and I feel sorry for you because it makes you incapable of any kind of debate. That is how most Christians are in my opinion. They are not interested in any kind of debate, because questioning their beliefs is threatening to them. As I said before, if you make a claim and say "the Bible supports it", I can look at the Bible and say "no, in fact, it does not". You are making claims based on a book that has words that anyone can look at and read. If you claim something is there when it is not, you bet that I am going to be the one to find that.

"Since you don't believe the God of the Bible, and it is the same as myth or fairytale, why do you waste so much time looking for ways to criticize it? You also do not believe in Santa, unicorns, or ghosts, but I never see you making posts about all the fallacies or inconsistencies that you find with those "imaginary" friends."

Do people dedicate their lives to Santa and unicorns? Do people KILL and DISCRIMINATE because of Santa and unicorns? No, they don't. So don't try and make the comparison. You are only making yourself look like a fool. You know damn well while people like me focus on religion and especially Christianity in the United States.

"I could quote all kinds of Bible verses to you, but the last time I did, you made it clear that the Gospels authenticity were suspect, and that I quoted all verses out of context. Easy for a person to say who does not believe in God to begin with."

By all means, let's have a verse-quoting war. If you're going to claim that something is in the Bible and it is not, I would love to disprove that.

"You atheists are completely not even in the same realm when arguing religion. If there is no God, then there can't be religions that are built around deity figures. And yet, more people in the world choose to believe and accept God and a religion, while you maintain He does not exist! You can not have it both ways. If there is no God, then you would not be obsessed and continually taking shots at Him and His followers (because logically and according to your own definition there is no such thing.) But the fact is, you KNOW millions of people DO believe and do follow, and they have no problem with it whatsoever."

False. There can absolutely be religion without deities. For example, do you know that other religions in the world exist besides Christianity? What about Hindus and Native American religions? People based their lives on these religions, and yet, according to you, their gods don't exist. Yet these people have built entire religions and societies based on entities that don't exist in your mind. So it is absolutely possible. But of course, like most Christians, you are completely Abrahamo-centric and completely disregard all other deities and religions of the world that have nothing to do with your own.

"Logan has made past comments that it has gotten his attention that millions would follow and even die for their faith. That is an astute observation. There IS something more to it than just printed words in an ancient text."

I don't think there is. Look at this way: if you have a religion that promises ETERNAL BURNING for those who do not believe in it, why wouldn't people believe in it? Christianity has remained so popular because of this. And I know this from debating Christians who ultimately boil down the reasoning behind their beliefs to Pacsal's Wager.

-11 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “"You are both trying to...

Interesting in all of this response how you conveniently left out the meat and core of my long comment - the spiritual rebirth. You can debate and argue religion with me or anyone until the cows come home. You can say the Bible does or does not say such and thus from now until you die. We can have a "verse quoting war" (very odd term) and discuss interpretations all day every day - but you would be purely doing so from a human/fleshly standpoint and opinion. As I said to Vic, if there has been no spiritual rebirth, then you are missing the KEY ingredient in understanding things of the Spirit. Since you don't even believe in Spirit, you truly have missed the life force of the Bible. That which is of the flesh is flesh, and that which is of the Spirit is spirit.

BUT, you can not argue the changed life experiences that millions of people have had by giving their lives to Jesus Christ. You think that you can only believe in God when everything is fully proven to you. That is your downfall and that day will sadly never come. You want to SEE "to" believe, when God's way is BELIEVING "to" see. To become God's child, one must have the faith of a child (according to Jesus), and trust the Father's words. If God said it, then He is good for anything He promised or included in His Word. If a person, any person, is unwilling to believe God exists, then it will be extremely difficult (actually impossible) to reach a point of admitting that His Son, Jesus Christ, is in fact, THE Savior of the world. There are many religions and many holy books, but there is only ONE Savior that I am aware of who made the claims, died on the cross, resurrected on the 3rd day, and promised to return. God gave us a Created Universe, a fully inspired Word of God, His only begotten Son, and promised of return. And yet, the atheist thumbs his nose at all of it and says "prove it."
I have never said or believed what you accused me of regarding other religions. I have cited in numerous comments that the fact that there ARE so many religions and deities, ought to in and of itself be proof enough for any atheist that there has to be deity and supernatural existence. Yes, of course I KNOW there are other religions other than Christianity. I did go to Bible college and have studied the Bible all my life. I don't say that to impress or dazzle. And I have studied other religions. I would never put down the religion or deity that another person chooses because ultimately, each person has to make their own choice (I might take a swipe here and there which I have). At least I believe in deity - you do not. So if anyone is putting down religion, it would clearly be yourself, who claims there is no deity. Others have enough sense to pick a religion and deity of their choosing and stick with it throughout their lifetime. I actually respect those people more than a person who will go their entire lifetime denying God - especially in light of all the data and recorded experiences of religious followers worldwide. Even a shoddy scientist would have to look at all the monumental data in our world pertaining to religion and have to conclude that SOMETHING is going on and there has to be deity somewhere. And as you stated, even die for it. Why does dedication to a religion have anything to do with God's existence to you? I cited Santa and unicorns because ALL atheists love to cite those as being in the exact same category and classification of deity. If they aren't real, and God isn't real, then ALL of them are just as "believable" or "unbelievable" as the other. If a person is going to spend huge amounts of effort and energy tearing God's "non-existence" apart, then they should at least be consistent by doing the same to Santa and unicorns. If me using that comparison makes me look "foolish," then how foolish must the atheist look grasping at them as examples to say God does not exist? Especially in light of clear Scripture that says "the fool hath said in his heart there is no God." I think you have your foolishness mixed up!
I choose Christianity for a reason - not to put others down or to discredit them. And there are few and far between the religions that have absolutely NO deity concept whatsoever. After all, religious groups are concentrations of like minded people who believe a body of teachings, ideas, concepts regarding sacred writings and a deity. After examining the various religions, writings, and teachings of many different religions, I made a choice for myself (in spite of the way I was raised and brought up). And I have made a choice based on a belief in a specific deity. The atheist refuses to make a choice and spends their life attacking others who do in fact decide to believe and invest their lives in their beliefs while honoring their deity. I find that highly insensitive and intolerable. If the atheist does not want to believe in deity, so be it. I can live with that. I do not make it my life purpose and goal to seek out every atheist I can find to try and discredit their lack of belief or disbelief. But somehow, they always seem to gravitate towards, specifically Christians, and shout out their views that THERE IS NO GOD, and PROVE IT! We have already proven it to ourselves, and our job in life is NOT to prove it to every person who denies God's existence! The believer's job is to live according to His teachings and share with as many who may have an interest along the way.

0 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “Interesting in all of this response how you...

So in other words: I disagree with you that there is a God, therefore I am insulting you and putting you down. Proof of my point. You cannot handle disagreement, you cannot handle different beliefs and anyone who has a different belief than you is putting you down. Congratulations on being insecure.

-11 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “Interesting in all of this response how you...

"Interesting in all of this response how you conveniently left out the meat and core of my long comment - the spiritual rebirth. You can debate and argue religion with me or anyone until the cows come home. You can say the Bible does or does not say such and thus from now until you die. We can have a "verse quoting war" (very odd term) and discuss interpretations all day every day - but you would be purely doing so from a human/fleshly standpoint and opinion. As I said to Vic, if there has been no spiritual rebirth, then you are missing the KEY ingredient in understanding things of the Spirit. Since you don't even believe in Spirit, you truly have missed the life force of the Bible. That which is of the flesh is flesh, and that which is of the Spirit is spirit."

That is just another way of saying I am not qualified to even debate with you. Yet I said time and time again that I am not debating the spiritual meaning of the Bible. I am debating the earthly meaning. The meaning of the Bible that people use to justify their humanly acts, to justify treating people a certain way. They use a literal interpretation of an ancient text written in an ancient language that other people can certainly look at and examine. It DOESN'T MATTER that I don't believe in God. I belive that people

"BUT, you can not argue the changed life experiences that millions of people have had by giving their lives to Jesus Christ. You think that you can only believe in God when everything is fully proven to you. That is your downfall and that day will sadly never come. You want to SEE "to" believe, when God's way is BELIEVING "to" see. To become God's child, one must have the faith of a child (according to Jesus), and trust the Father's words. If God said it, then He is good for anything He promised or included in His Word. If a person, any person, is unwilling to believe God exists, then it will be extremely difficult (actually impossible) to reach a point of admitting that His Son, Jesus Christ, is in fact, THE Savior of the world. There are many religions and many holy books, but there is only ONE Savior that I am aware of who made the claims, died on the cross, resurrected on the 3rd day, and promised to return. God gave us a Created Universe, a fully inspired Word of God, His only begotten Son, and promised of return. And yet, the atheist thumbs his nose at all of it and says "prove it.""

Yes, I do say "prove it". There are many religions of the world, as you acknowledge. Many people who do not believe in Jesus. Many people who look at all your evidence and say that it does not matter at all, atheists and theists alike from different cultures. You think that just because there is a "savior" that that somehow makes your religion superior to others. Others would say that personal enlightenment makes their religion superior, others would say an escape from the cycle of reincarnation makes their religion superior to others. You see what I am saying? It is all about cultural perspective. I don't care how great your religion sounds to you, there are many other religions of the world that sound great to others and your personal experiences do not elevate your religion above others.

"I have never said or believed what you accused me of regarding other religions. I have cited in numerous comments that the fact that there ARE so many religions and deities, ought to in and of itself be proof enough for any atheist that there has to be deity and supernatural existence. Yes, of course I KNOW there are other religions other than Christianity. I did go to Bible college and have studied the Bible all my life. I don't say that to impress or dazzle. And I have studied other religions. I would never put down the religion or deity that another person chooses because ultimately, each person has to make their own choice (I might take a swipe here and there which I have). At least I believe in deity - you do not. So if anyone is putting down religion, it would clearly be yourself, who claims there is no deity."

See my other response.

"Others have enough sense to pick a religion and deity of their choosing and stick with it throughout their lifetime. I actually respect those people more than a person who will go their entire lifetime denying God - especially in light of all the data and recorded experiences of religious followers worldwide. Even a shoddy scientist would have to look at all the monumental data in our world pertaining to religion and have to conclude that SOMETHING is going on and there has to be deity somewhere. And as you stated, even die for it. Why does dedication to a religion have anything to do with God's existence to you?"

You continually use faulty logic like this over and over again and think that's supposed to convince me there is a God? It doesn't work. People die for other causes as well. People die for political beliefs, people have killed themselves because of cults. Look at Jim Jones. Does the fact that he was able to manipulate hundreds of people into committing suicide prove that they died for somehting bigger than themselves? No, it doesn't. It proves that the human mind can be profoundly affected by things. ESPECIALLY things that claim to be metaphysical and play a factor into what will happen to you after you die for all eternity. That is where I believe the power of religion comes from, not from any unseen supernatural force, but from the promises that it makes and the fact that is in unfalsifiable.

"I cited Santa and unicorns because ALL atheists love to cite those as being in the exact same category and classification of deity. If they aren't real, and God isn't real, then ALL of them are just as "believable" or "unbelievable" as the other. If a person is going to spend huge amounts of effort and energy tearing God's "non-existence" apart, then they should at least be consistent by doing the same to Santa and unicorns. If me using that comparison makes me look "foolish," then how foolish must the atheist look grasping at them as examples to say God does not exist? Especially in light of clear Scripture that says "the fool hath said in his heart there is no God." I think you have your foolishness mixed up!"

I am not all atheists. Address ME specifically. And you use circular logic to prove that I am a fool? Good job being a bigger fool.

"I choose Christianity for a reason - not to put others down or to discredit them. And there are few and far between the religions that have absolutely NO deity concept whatsoever. After all, religious groups are concentrations of like minded people who believe a body of teachings, ideas, concepts regarding sacred writings and a deity. After examining the various religions, writings, and teachings of many different religions, I made a choice for myself (in spite of the way I was raised and brought up). And I have made a choice based on a belief in a specific deity."

Good for you. Others have chosen Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Native American spiritualism, and atheism for the same reasons. Learn to accept that people have differing beliefs than you and see the world differently than you. So far you have demonstrated that you cannot do that.

"The atheist refuses to make a choice and spends their life attacking others who do in fact decide to believe and invest their lives in their beliefs while honoring their deity. I find that highly insensitive and intolerable. If the atheist does not want to believe in deity, so be it. I can live with that. I do not make it my life purpose and goal to seek out every atheist I can find to try and discredit their lack of belief or disbelief. But somehow, they always seem to gravitate towards, specifically Christians, and shout out their views that THERE IS NO GOD, and PROVE IT! We have already proven it to ourselves, and our job in life is NOT to prove it to every person who denies God's existence! The believer's job is to live according to His teachings and share with as many who may have an interest along the way."

No, the atheist does not spend their lives attacking others. When have I attacked anyone? You're the one who attacks Muslims and atheists constantly for not "seeing the light" but I could say the same about you. "Realize that it is all in your head, that there is no deity, that you are wrong and a fool." But do I say that? No! Because it's absurd. I acknowledge the possibility of some metaphysical force, but I do not actively believe in it or worship it or try to affect the lives of others based on it. AND YOU CAN'T STAND THAT. And that says far more about you than it does about me.

-11 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “"Interesting in all of this response how...

Have you demonstrated to the believing community that you can accept their belief in a God? No, not even close. And I accept all and any beliefs any person may have. But you are talking to me and asking me why and what I believe. You keep saying that I am making myself superior, when I am explaining why I believe and what I believe. If that is threatening or insecurity as you claim, then oh well.
I am not even threatened in the least by you. Your choices are on YOUR shoulders, not mine. If my logic is so faulty and there is no substance to anything I say, then the hell do you constantly wish to challenge my belief? Is that to prove your rightness? Superior sense of logic? More provable world view? What drives you to take a believer, who is perfectly content with believing in God and a Bible, to task on anything? I don't understand what is to be gained.
If you worshipped the shoes you walk in, that would be fine by me. If you pray to ants, I don't care. If you can give me any basis for your belief, then I accept that. But I have made clear, the atheist has put himself in the status of believing NOTHING and in NO ONE. I contend that is faulty and failed logic, and is not genuine. Everyone believes in something and has to give an answer as to why we are here and what our purpose is. By claiming atheism, one pretends to be avoiding all of that. And I don't even care, other than I know all people believe something. The only difference is in WHAT and WHY.

0 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “Have you demonstrated to the believing...

I never said there was no substance to anything you said, so I'm not sure where you keep getting that. Yes, I believe there are problems with your logic, but I never said there was no substance to anything or you said that your beliefs were based on nothing. It doesn't I can't still find issue with them. And you are clearly mistaken if you think that I am ignoring the question of humanity. I do believe things about how humanity originated, but there's no point in discussing those with you.

You also seem to think becoming an atheist required no thought or investigation. Which could not be more false.

-11 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “Interesting in all of this response how you...

I am sorry if I accused you of anything. The only things I feel I could possibly accuse you of are:

1) using faith as an argument for knowledge
and
2) having a different interpretation than I of Jesus's message to the world

I cannot ask you to prove anything. I can ask for guidance in reconciling what appears to me to be contradictions in the text and I have asked for that. Unless I missed your point, the solution you seem to offer is that I should accept these words as the truth and only then I will know that they are the truth.

Lastly I do not think seeing is believing because I do not trust my eyes (they have deceived me too many times) and I do not trust my mind as I change it too often for it to be reliable.

-11 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “You are both trying to "understand"...

"The Bible is great literature, and can be read by anyone for sure. But it is also a spiritual book, requiring a re-birthing of your own spirit by God to be able to understand its real and true message. It is God's book to His people. Since you don't claim to even believe in God's existence, the book could not possibly reveal its meaning to you (since you could not possibly be one of His own). Christians are called the "the children of God" all throughout Scripture. God's children hear and understand His words as His voice. Again, you are not able to enjoy such "nonsense," and yet you so desperately want to attack the beliefs and "double standards" of every illogical half-witted believer!"

Not true at all. I want to show, when someone claims something is supported by the Bible, like denying women and homosexuals rights or killing people or discriminating and treating people like overall crap, that their beliefs are not supported by their ancient text. They want to use a book to justify negative treatment of other humans and I can show them that that is incorrect. If someone claims "The Bible is the word of God", guess what? That is impossible to disprove and why it is not a falsifiable claim and one that I should not even be wasting my time with. But if someone says "the Bible proves that homosexuals should be killed", I can look in the Bible and show someone that is incorrect. If some Christian says "The Old Testament doesn't apply", you bet your **** I can show them they are wrong. You know how many times I've heard that? You think Christians are all united on what the Bible means? If that were true, there would be no Catholics, no Presbyterians, no Lutherans, no Seven-Day Adventists, etc. You all do not agree AT ALL what the Bible means.

"And I have never seen similar posts of this nature from either of you regarding ANY other faith. Why is that? Would you make the same criticism and attack against Islam or ANY other deity based religious faith? If not, why? Certainly your mental capacities are capable of finding inconsistencies and fallacies in each and every one.
And what is so amazing, the very God you deny, IS a source of constant interest, fascination, and study by both of you."

I'm a religious studies major, so in fact, I do spend a lot of time on other religions. But the fact is, in the United States, Christianity is the only religion that is political relevant and relevant to my life. I don't know any Muslims. I don't know any Muslims who are trying to use Islam to justify unfair laws. I do know Christians in that position, however, so excuse me if I decide to focus on them.

"So if there is no God, you sure spend a great deal of time, effort, and energy fighting against and pointing out the nothingness of nothing! You are spending your life fighting against and criticizing a "straw man" - which makes you appear to be either crazy or disingenuous. If something doesn't exist, then stop telling all of us who already believe it does, to try and see things through a closed unbelieving mindset! When you have "seen the Light" you no longer want to return to the darkness. A non-believer IS in darkness (according to the Bible), and can not see the Light. And yet you continuously try to darken the Light of a believer with your ignorance and insults. However, any and every attempt will fail. Jesus Christ died on that cross to pay for the sins of the world, and then resurrected bodily from the tomb to shatter and destroy the hold that sin and death had on this world. Those who accept Him and His payment for their sins can and are reborn (the term born again is used in the Bible), and become a new creature in Christ. Saul of Tarsus became Paul of the New Testament, and he had a rebirthing experience. He was never the same, and ended up penning a good portion of the New Testament. Every atheist must start exactly where any believer has - at the foot of the cross. If you fail to start at square one, all other attempts at trying to "understand" are complete failure."

No, what I am spending my life doing is understanding HUMANS. Humans do things in the name of religion and I can try and understand what they do and why they do something. I can understand whether or not their holy texts truly support their actions. I can understand why they occupy their lives with something that I wouldn't, etc. I do not need to acknowledge the existence of God to acknowledge that PEOPLE do things in the NAME of God.

"I refuse to continue arguing religion with either of you. You at least got one thing right in this post: "clear as mud." To you, I can understand why you would have that problem. For me, there is no problem at all, and your post is an insult and slap in the fact to all Christians. For one who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, you have missed the message and pathway by hundreds of miles!"

No, the post is not an insult. But you refuse to entertain any idea that goes contrary to your beliefs. That is the difference between you and I. You are afraid of disagreement. I clearly am not. If you look above at my comment about Exodus 21:22, you can see that I was at least partly disagreeing with their logic. I did not even agree to this post. So quit lumping me in with people who make petty insults and then go on their merry way. You know damn well that I debate religion better than a lot of people. This is not about "whether God exists or not". This is about "whether the Bible says something or not" and I CAN participate full well in that discussion.

0 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “"The Bible is great literature, and can...

As usual, we butt heads, and I don't enjoy butting. I don't mind a good conversation. But when you say that everything I say is wrong and I am incorrect, then you are in fact making it clear that you have it all figured out.
And where and when have you ever seen me afraid of your comments or anyone else's? If I was afraid of anything, I would shut the hell up and run away like a scared person. Why should I be afraid? I fully KNOW there are plenty of beliefs "contrary" to MY beliefs. So what! I can allow them to stand right alongside of mine, as long as that person will let me be. But I, just like most people, when my views or faith is attacked or belittled, I jump in and explain with good reason why I believe what I do. Fear is not my motive. Love is. When a person understands that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, and that this sacrifice ALONE was what satisfied God's demand for the payment of all sin, THEN I (or anyone) can come to God out of thankfulness and appreciation for paying a debt that I would never have been able to pay.

0 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “As usual, we butt heads, and I don't enjoy...

When you tell me that I can't discuss something because I don't share your beliefs, you better bet that I am going to respond, and it's not going to be amiable. How would you like it if I told you have no right to talk about homosexuality because you're not homosexual?

0 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “When you tell me that I can't discuss...

When have I said that?

0 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “When have I said that?

Well you kept talking above about not understand and wasting time. I get that you think we can't fully understand it. Fine. But we can have a discussion about what the Bible does and doesn't say. Biblical interpretation is not limited to those who believe in God, especially when one is applying that interpretation to a tangible worldly issue.

0 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “When have I said that?

I would have to say that I received a similar message, that as a non-believer I should not be discussing god. Perhaps I misread your intent.

0 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “You are both trying to "understand"...

Ok I read this.

If someone claimed that abortion is wrong because the Unicorn said so, I would read what the unicorn supposedly said and point out any logical contradiction I saw. This has not happened to me. Many people have said that the bible tells them xyz and so yes, that is where I go to look for contradictions.

On this subject (abortion) I have never heard anyone use the Old testament, the Torah, the Talmud, Quran or any other religious text (except the Christian Bible) to argue against abortion, so therefore, you are correct, I have never looked there for contradictions in their logic. In fact most Jewish and Hini folks know are pro-choice.

There are others on this site that have provided answers to contradictions I have seen in the other contexts, on other subjects (such as women's right, charity, godly vengeance) and they have provided clear and logical arguments using their text sources to support their positions. In those cases I thanked them and learned from them and in many cases changed my opinion on that subject.

So yes, I have yet to get an earthly, logical explanation as to how a story about an omnipotent being who chooses to sacrifice his son is logically compatible with the argument that abortion is always wrong.

I don't get that. I do get it that (for some) there need not be any "logic" but rather, for them, some other source of knowledge called "faith" guides them, so that they do not see this as a contradiction.

I admit that my feeble mind is not capable of making that leap, and that for me, I would need some clearer explanation of how these seemingly similar ideas (filicide and abortion) are infact not related or somehow logically reconcilable. As yet no one has been able to do that, although Fuzala did show that (logically) the Quran does not have this contradiction as it does not report the filicide that is reported in the bible.

0 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “Ok I read this. If someone claimed that...

This seems to be getting completely ridiculous. You are trying to drag me through something of YOUR own creating.
First, I never said anything about God or the Bible in my abortion arguments (even though I could have). I specifically have pointed out in several threads that I am doing the best I can in most arguments to NOT use God, Bible, or my Christianity as the weight for my logic or intellect. Why? ONLY because I know several people on this sight are atheists or agnostics and do not believe in God or the Bible. I could argue ALL discussions from a Biblical perspective, but what would that accomplish? Using a book that others do not view as supernaturally revealed, inspired, or written (even though I believe those things) would do nothing to sway an unbeliever. I can argue far better with a straight unbeliever using Bible because they at least allow for the possibility of deity and have a basic recognition and "reverence" for His existence. But when an atheist tells me he has zero belief or acknowledgment of God, then I see no point or purpose in using a book from God to drive points home.

The dilemma you present is totally unrelated to anything. As I answer your questions and dialogue with you, I constantly put myself in to your mindset as well as my own. You, being the atheist claims there is NO God - period. So, on that assumption or belief, If there is no God, there can be NO Father and NO Son - therefore there can be NO sacrifice. That IS correct logic and deduction based on your premise of NO GOD. IF, I did not believe in the existence of God (writings or not), then God and His Word would be the last of my concerns and the least reference I would use in debate or logic. By you using God in your arguments, you are simply telling me, the believer, that you do in fact acknowledge and believe there is a God because you constantly use His book as an arguing point. I accept the Bible as God's Word. You don't even accept that there is a God. You arguing against me with God's book, in my opinion and vantage point, makes you appear to be a lunatic - only because you are using the book of a ghost to argue religion and challenge Christian views and principles.

And yet you insist on taking Godly accounts from a Godly book to try and bait and corner me on what I do or don't believe or how my faith could be valid. It is as if you and Logan think that if you can find a stronger argument or trap a believer, that you will somehow gain some sort of notch on your belt or receive the coveted non-believers award! It is silly.

Yes, I have taken shots at atheists numerous times, but those are NOT attacks on anyone's faith or religion (according to yourself, you have NO beliefs and NO religion). I could not possibly be offending anything or anyone, because when you attack nothing, you still end up with nothing (exactly what you claim that I have). I view atheism as a flawed approach to any logical or rational thinking, and that ALONE is why I continue chipping away. You, on the other hand, know full well that a believer has a world view rooted in a deep belief in a Creator and what is termed by Himself, as His Word. God spoke audibly to His very first created humans in the Garden of Eden, and continued speaking to early Old Testament hand picked leaders: Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Elijah, etc. The Ten Commands were written "by the finger of God" on to the tablets that He provided for the first set, and then re-written by Him on the 2nd set of tablets that Moses provided (because he had broken the originals). Since you atheists don't believe there is a God, you could not possibly begin to believe that God could communicate THROUGH a human instrument and personally guide and instruct them on what to write. I have no problem believing that an all powerful Being can do anything He jolly well pleases and chooses to do. After all, the Creator is not subject TO His Creation. He transcends it, and has the ability to work WITHIN and WITHOUT it. If a Creator is Everlasting, and spoke everything in to existence, then miracles and a miraculous book are easy accomplishments for such an entity.

Anyway, I clearly digressed. I will lightly entertain your flawed analogy and premise of abortion. Abortion is the taking of a fetus's life by a mother's choosing. It is ending a human life purely for convenience or inconvenient purposes. Regardless of the reason, a life is being stopped in the womb.
Jesus was NOT aborted by His Father, nor was He murdered as you erroneously assert. The design and plan for Christ's birth, death, and resurrection were all foretold in the Old Testament. It was decided and predestined before the foundations of the world, that this would be God's will and plan. Why God chose to do it this exact way is His prerogative, not mine. Jesus easily could have stopped the crucifixion, but then He would not have been fulfilling His mission of willingly laying down His life as the ultimate once and for all sacrifice for the sins of humanity. He GAVE His life - it was not TAKEN.

Christians view life as sacred because Scripture plainly teaches that God knows us in the womb (and even before our inception since He knows all things). There are numerous verses referring to this fact and teaching. And the Biblical idea of humanity is that we were created in the very image of God. Since this can not be a physical image, it must include things such as emotion, feeling, thought, and spirit - all qualities God possesses. But of course, none of this matters when a person avowedly does not believe in the existence of God. Any thoughts or views I may have or hold about God, make very clear sense to me as a believer. And to your original open words of this post - "clear as mud" to you. I say rightfully and understandably so.

0 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “This seems to be getting completely...

In other words, you are allowed to attack us, but we're not allowed to criticize or even question you. That is part of why you are viewed as a big bullshitter. You can't have an argument with someone this way!

-11 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “In other words, you are allowed to attack us...

I don't attack YOU - I attack your faithlessness and non belief - an ideology that has no substance, foundation, or merit. That is my opinion. You can question all you wish, but you need to enter a believing status before much of what you struggle with will ever be answered.

-11 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “I don't attack YOU - I attack your...

Opinion or not, that will not stop me from criticizing your beliefs all I want. And you can cry "bashing!" and "attack!" all you want.

011 Reply

Logan Logan

In response to “Opinion or not, that will not stop me from...

Fine by me. I only ask that you stop trying to throw God in my face. I get it about Him and have accepted. Because you don't or can't believe should not be grounds for you to say I have nothing or believe in nothing.

0 Reply

freespeechfreelancer freespeechfreelancer

In response to “This seems to be getting completely...

This seems like a pretty logically refutation of the premise of the original post. Thank you.

0 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “You are both trying to "understand"...

Gods are invented by man, then religion is built around the delusion that this invented god exists. and Prove the the bible is the word of God...LOL and then I want you to get out of the bible, and without it prove this Jesus or God , and I know you will just offer up lip service with nothing but hee haws and hummms, and some excuse as to why you wont or cant . Be there a thousand times with you people..

01 Reply

clayslayer clayslayer

You've made your ignorance very clear

+22 Reply

Jennitalia Jennitalia

In response to “You've made your ignorance very clear

Thank you. My goal is to avoid the appearance of knowledge.

-112 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc OP

In response to “You've made your ignorance very clear

guuurl

you supposed to explain

-111 Reply

fuzala fuzala

The Son agreed to the Father's plan, after all, they are the same being. The reasons are completely fathomable, if you would try to understand the beliefs you are mocking. The woman and child, on the other hand, are not the same being. The child does not agree to be killed.

011 Reply

justwondering28

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