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No, women were created to make babies.

Nobody :(

Yes, women aren't baby factories.

Trishrrw070193SobriquetBetterThanEzra1119drhannahnuxvomicaMaelthus

Women need the same authority of their bodies as men do of theirs

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Wait, what?

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WunderscorePhilboydStudgeAnita_RobinCauzisaid

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BetterThanEzra1119Blucatt
My view is irrelevant on the matter, however, does it not seem counterintuitive to legally stop a woman from having an abortion, but at the same time refusing to tie her tubes because she is "too young"(Mind you, I am talking about 24 and above)?

Explained by Vrendowl...

Just a pondering, I wondered if anyone else thought about this, or if it is even a possible issue elsewhere.

Top Comment

We should all have the right to govern our own actions. This applies to birth control, abortion, and countless other topics.

+441 See / Add Replies

Wunderscore

Comments

Gee I don't know, that sounds confusing to me. Abortion is not illegal. Is sterilization legal? Could you state that another way? I'm not sure what your view is.

0 Reply

Daver Daver

There is talk of making abortion illegal by some political candidates. And I have had friends whom have been told "no, you cannot get your tubes tied, because you're too young" These same people already had had 3 or more children, and did not wish to have any more. It is not that sterilization is illegal, but there seems to be a whole lot of doctors who refuse to do it here because of age.

+22 Reply

Vrendowl Vrendowl OP

In response to “There is talk of making abortion illegal by...

Ahhhhh thanks, now i get your point. You are conflating a possible LAW with the opinion of individual doctors. Then asking if they are contradictory.
YES, but ----- (there's always a but) Laws are binding on everyone, while an individual's opinion is not.

+231 Reply

Daver Daver

We should all have the right to govern our own actions. This applies to birth control, abortion, and countless other topics.

+441 Reply

Wunderscore

In response to “We should all have the right to govern our...

Why is it your opinion that an individual should have some rights, that effect other individuals, but not certain other rights that also effect other individuals. (wt)

-11 Reply

Daver Daver

In response to “Why is it your opinion that an individual...

Because those individuals are not yet individuals.

+231 Reply

Wunderscore

In response to “Because those individuals are not yet individuals.

Do you profess to know of a certainty the point at which a human begins to exist.
In truth, you nor anyone else really knows. You have little more than opinion based on arguments of others.
Acknowledging this unknowing, when is it OK to kill an unborn ?

-11 Reply

Daver Daver

In response to “Do you profess to know of a certainty the...

I believe that if the fetus can survive independently of its mother's womb, then it should be valued as a child. However, if the fetus cannot survive independently of its mother's womb, it is not yet a person.

Obviously I'm not professing to know anything; I'm just stating my beliefs. I'm allowed to do that, right?

+442 Reply

Wunderscore

In response to “I believe that if the fetus can survive...

Yes of course. Just trying to get to WHY you believe that when there is nothing solid to base it on

-11 Reply

Daver Daver

In response to “Yes of course. Just trying to get to WHY you...

I don't believe that it's immoral to "pull the plug" on a person that cannot survive without the aid of a machine. Why is this different?

+33 Reply

Wunderscore

In response to “I don't believe that it's immoral to...

I am th most pro abortion person I know
however I find this argument odd.

Pulling the plug is letting nature take its course
Euthanasia involves taking a human life
Abortion is the removal of tissue from a person's body
The three are completely unrelated

Unless you are suggesting
Removing the embryo/fetus from the mother
Placing it in a comfortable bed
(complete with pain control medicine
and palliative care)
Treating that blob of tissue like it was a human being
Not offering any life support assistance
But comforting it until it perishes
Treating the now rotting blob of tissue
like you would treat a deceased human
complete with funeral arrangements

To me this seems absurd

+111 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc

In response to “I am th most pro abortion person I...

I'm saying that if an individual, born or otherwise, cannot survive independently without external aid, it isn't necessarily unethical to remove the aid.

+11 Reply

Wunderscore

In response to “I'm saying that if an individual, born or...

That sounds like you are saying
that the embryo is an individual.
Which (in my eyes) it is not,
it is part of the mother.

Many pro-lifers use that argument
[it is an individual]
to argue against abortion.

Is an embryo an "individual"?

0 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc

In response to “That sounds like you are saying that the...

I mean in later development. I don't think that an embryo is an individual yet, but even if I did, it can't survive independently. An embryo can't survive independently, and neither can a fetus that's less than however many weeks old. Who cares if they're individuals? Both are still part of the categorization that my beliefs define. You don't have to agree.

+11 Reply

Wunderscore

In response to “I mean in later development. I don't think...

I am not trying to get us to agree
I am just trying to learn from you
Please help me understand your beliefs

I was wondering, since you said"
"it isn't necessarily unethical to remove the aid."
If that means
it is not necessarily unethical to remove the aid
from say a 1 year old baby
or a 3 year old toddler?
Like just let them go
and fend for themselves?

Because I have argued that
ethics are arbitrary
and that a mother should have the right
to take the lives of her offspring at any age

So I was just trying to re-evaluate
those arguments
based on your recent statements

My mind works slowly

0 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc

In response to “I am not trying to get us to agree I am just...

But those children are capable of performing life-sustaining functions independently. Yes, they still require support. But their bodies are able to support their lives.

0 Reply

Wunderscore

In response to “But those children are capable of performing...

Help me understand the
difference/similarities between:

- End-of-life support
(e.g., feeding tube, respirator)
- Prenatal life support
(e.g., umbilical cord, amniotic sac)
- Postnatal life support
(e.g., bottles/breast milk, cribs/blankets)

Is withholding any or all of these service
ever "necessarily unethical"?

0 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc

In response to “Help me understand the...

A baby can perform life-sustaining processes. Obviously food and shelter must be provided. But the organ functions necessary for life can be completed independently.

+221 Reply

Wunderscore

In response to “A baby can perform life-sustaining processes...

that makes total sense
thanks for clarifying

+11 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc

Women should have the right to have their tubes tide when they're older than 18 (or perhaps 21), regardless of your other points.

It does seem counter-intuitive at first, but I agree with Daver. You are conflating two separate issues.

+33 Reply

PhilboydStudge PhilboydStudge

In response to “Women should have the right to have their...

Children are the issue, so they are in fact related.They are a big issue when people try what they can not to conceive/have any [more] children. In Colorado, I believe that is the state, it is already illegal to have an abortion. I myself would never ever be able to do it, regardless of circumstance. There should be better, more concrete ways to avoid it for those who do not want children. Although I was recently(yesterday) told a woman(like a man) could sell her reproductive parts, like ovary, or eggs, so a profitable fix perhaps?

0 Reply

Vrendowl Vrendowl OP

In response to “Children are the issue, so they are in fact...

So you're argument is about woman who do not want children? I know of no State where it is illegal for a woman to have her tubes tied, not to mention use contraception. These seem like concrete choices to me.

02 Reply

PhilboydStudge PhilboydStudge

In response to “Children are the issue, so they are in fact...

The difference is simple:

Abortion is postcoital birth control
Tubal Ligation is precoital birth control

The former is treatment of an emergent condition
The later is treatment of a long term condition

Being pregnant is an acute issue that requires immediate response
Being sexually active is a chronic issue that requires careful planning

0 Reply

VicZinc VicZinc

No form of contraception is 100% accurate. I did not say it was illegal, merely that many doctors will not do it based solely on a woman's age. I know of at least 4 women who have experienced this.

0 Reply

Vrendowl Vrendowl OP

In response to “No form of contraception is 100% accurate. I...

They fear the woman might regret it, as it's irreversible. A woman deciding this at 25 might very well think otherwise 10 years later; and from what I've heard at least, not being able to procreate when you really want it is pain that aches for years.
Many doctors won't perform operations on someone just because she asks for it, their ethics demand that they weigh carefully the effects on the patient's life.

0 Reply

hugo

In response to “They fear the woman might regret it, as it's...

If they want kids so badly, they can just adopt. There's hundreds of thousands of kids in the foster care system.

0 Reply

BetterThanEzra1119 BetterThanEzra1119

Women created from man to make like decisions. We are given thought, intelligence to many different levels, common sense, we walk, talk, live. Our choice is what we have to live each day with. Abortion, tubal ligation, or children. All extremely large desiciosions that are with that person daily upon what direction they took.

+111 Reply

Cauzisaid

Deep subject. This is my two cents worth. Keep the change!
I am one that believes that we as Spirits choose our parents, trails, lessons and our human bodies way before we come into the world we live in. If a woman get's pregnant after she has been raped she should have the baby and if she doesn't want the baby there is adoption. Why and by what right do we as humans have to decide to take the life of another being. If the woman's life is a health concern I'd have to say that she needs to follow the advice of her Dr. Even the ones who entered this world with countless disability's have their purpose. We need to stop playing the part of "Divine Order"

The "embryo" is his/ her own being, own essence, the mother's body is a vessel for the child to come forth. If we were more connected to our Spiritual order we would see that. It's sad to live in a world where life is taken for granted, even the life of the unborn.

0 Reply

Anita_Robin Anita_Robin

don';t want a baby? don't have ****, SIMPLE AS THAT! once you have created a baby murder is NOT a choice!

0 Reply

Anonymousmouse Anonymousmouse

Abortion is not "removing tissue" from the womb, it is murder of a baby. I don't care if you try calling it a fetus, the semantics are irrelevant. That said, a parent has the choice every day to take care of, give up, or kill their child. Most gratitude from me, my mother chose to take care of me and my siblings. All you pro choicers, it's murder. All you pro lifers, as much as there are numerous ways a parent can take care of their child, it is ultimately up to them as whether they step up or not. It's right in line with "Honor killings", no?

0 Reply

Vrendowl Vrendowl OP

In response to “Abortion is not "removing tissue"...

If I catch a woman talking about YOLO [You only live once], bet she best not be at the planned parenthood getting an abortion done. I'm not sure what I would do, but it's guaranteed not to be pleasant.

0 Reply

Vrendowl Vrendowl OP

IMO the government should butt out. All polls indicate an even division between sides, so there is no justification for any law forcing everybody to go the same way.

+112 Reply

that_guy that_guy

In response to “IMO the government should butt out. All polls...

Where there is a will, a way will be sought until found, legality is of little importance in the lengths someone will go to to do what they want to do.

01 Reply

Vrendowl Vrendowl OP

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