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So I guess my real issue is people believing fictional stories as fact

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TylerMayhemDurden TylerMayhemDurden

In response to “So I guess my real issue is people believing...

Yep. I have the same issue. There are a ton of historically accurate stories in the Bible, but there are also a lot of parables that don't make scientific sense (and aren't supposed to be real).

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canthink

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That's my big problem with faith, right there. You don't need to understand to believe. In my case, yes I do. I wouldn't invest money in something I don't understand, so why would I base my entire view of the universe and life itself on something that I don't understand?
Greeks, Egyptians, and Buddhists, to name a few, have God(s) that were resurrected.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying about women and eyewitnesses.
One example of a biblical impossibility is Jonah being swallowed by the whale. And living.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “That's my big problem with faith, right...

Oh, adding onto my other comment, I personally don't really buy into the whole "Jonah being eaten by a whale and surviving" story as literal. Within the context of the prophecies surrounding Jonah's story, it seems that it's more of a parable, considering it's surrounded by heavy prophecies about the coming of Jesus. In fact, the story of Jonah was probably used when the Bible was read aloud to keep the attention of young or distracted listeners. Additionally, Jonah was being sent to Nineveh which was, at the time, a deteriorating city. Why would he be sent there to protest against corrupt rulers? There's no point, really.
There's so much parable in the Bible. I suppose the Bible could be a good argument against itself if you approach it literally, but given that Jesus himself spoke mostly in parables (rather than literally), I don't think it's meant to be that way.

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canthink

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That's my big problem with faith, right there. You don't need to understand to believe. In my case, yes I do. I wouldn't invest money in something I don't understand, so why would I base my entire view of the universe and life itself on something that I don't understand?
Greeks, Egyptians, and Buddhists, to name a few, have God(s) that were resurrected.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying about women and eyewitnesses.
One example of a biblical impossibility is Jonah being swallowed by the whale. And living.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “That's my big problem with faith, right...

Well, yes, I do need to understand. I'm not buying into a religion that I was raised to believe, I'm believing in something that I see evidence for both personally and academically. But that doesn't mean I need to understand 100% of it because that's extremely difficult with any subject.
Gods, not real-life religious leaders. Yes, historians accept that Jesus existed. It's just a matter of believing what he said or not. Buddhism is modern, yes, but doesn't actually believe in or follow a main god (or a god in general), so that argument doesn't really make sense. Did you mean Hinduism?
Okay, well consider the societal position of women in Biblical times. They were pretty much disregarded in terms of opinion and importance. For example, in a large crowd, only men were counted. If a woman's opinion was so undervalued and, in that time, not dependable, why would the Bible cite mostly women as eyewitness sources? That's extremely counterproductive.
Jonah wasn't even necessarily swallowed by a whale. Matthew 12:40 says he was, but the Greek translation could mean any type of large fish. Corinthians defines any creature that does not live on land as a fish, so there could be any number of creatures that swallowed Jonah. That means there could have been enough space in the gullet of the fish to swallow a man whole. Additionally, "three days and three nights" is a Hebrew idiom that actually means the period of time started in the beginning one day and ended in the day directly following (although not used idiomatically for Jesus' revival, as far as I know). And there have been documented cases of men surviving inside of fish. You can also make the argument that Jonah's experience with the whale is an analogy for Jesus' resurrection, so it doesn't even have to have happened. It can be a metaphor.

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canthink

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A good argument against Christianity is any story, because to find one that scholars or whomever believe to be true is impossible

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TylerMayhemDurden TylerMayhemDurden

In response to “A good argument against Christianity is any...

That's not accurate. The gospels are accepted to be true by Biblical scholars, and many others, as well as the majority of (the rest of) the new testament. There are just a few examples in which the stories are rejected due to their physical and lawful impossibilities, mostly in the old testament.

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canthink

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Not only that, there's a story in there about the earth stopping its rotation. Which I don't really see how is supposed to be metaphorical, it just doesn't make much sense to me. If the earth stopped rotating, gravity would cease. Which means everything that isn't connected to the earth would be flung into space much like a slingshot

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TylerMayhemDurden TylerMayhemDurden

In response to “Not only that, there's a story in there about...

Well, even the people who wrote (transcribed) the Bible doubt that one. It doesn't make sense to them either. Joshua 10:13 "Is this not written in the book of Jasher?" This is an editorial comment written in by the scribe of Joshua, who seems incredulous that this happened.
It was also ignored in Hebrews 11 and Psalm 136 (and all other psalms), which mention the great works of God.
The story is considered a "tall tale" and is rejected by other parts of scripture. It's not really a good argument against Christianity since it seems to be rejected by not only the document itself but by many scholars since it's physically impossible.

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canthink

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I don't like to argue against any religion in particular, I prefer to focus on the entire concept of religion. Human needs present an obvious reason why we could create religion. Every religion has god(s) who happen to look like the people that believe in that religion. Prayer, from any faith, has no measurable effects. Every religion ever created has the same amount of supporting evidence and is just as likely to be true as the next. There is no reason to choose one over another unless one was born into a particular religion and brought up to believe that is the truth. Religions centered around a deity (or many) have always existed and are incredibly diverse. Every civilization with every religion has been adamant in the truthfulness of their faith. They can't all be right, so is it more likely that Christianity (or any other) is miraculously the one that turns out to be true and the rest are just fairy tales, or that they're all wrong?
Also, why would God tell only a certain group of people in a certain area about himself and then leave it up to them to tell everyone else? Why not go over to the next continent and tell at least one person over there that they're worshiping the wrong God, rather than let His followers take their sweet time getting there and then slaughter the pagans they find?

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “I don't like to argue against any religion in...

Can you give me examples from the old testament, though? I find it's easier to argue when I have a specific quote to analyze.
Yes, each culture has been adamant in their faith. That's completely true. However, Christianity was completely counterproductive in its methods of storytelling (and proving that its stories are true) and the fact that it's widespread validates its claims. For example, the way Jesus' followers claimed he rose from the dead. Any other religious sect from the past that claimed their leader rose from the dead was ostracized. In fact, if a religious sect's leader died, they usually found a new one or abandoned the cause. It was completely unheard of to insist that someone was brought back to life. Additionally, it listed primarily women as sources of information and witnesses. In that time period, women's opinions never really counted for anything. However, the Bible didn't fabricate any eyewitness accounts so it can only list women. I really hope that makes sense. If not, I can expand on it.
In regards to a God only telling a chosen amount of people: I don't have an answer for you, but I don't understand how that could disprove religion. You don't need to understand everything about the nature of a God to believe in Him.

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canthink

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Random sections equalling about a third. I started at the begininning then skipped through parts.. Some of those stories are really messed up, and condratict themselves a lot. Like killing is wrong, but we should murder gays and people who have **** before marriage

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TylerMayhemDurden TylerMayhemDurden

In response to “Random sections equalling about a third. I...

Yes, the old testament is pretty messed up. But scholars generally accept that Leviticus (which I think you read, that or Deuteronomy), along with other passages, was a way to keep Jewish Israelites alive until the coming of the Messiah. Think about it: in that time period, having many sexual partners meant more STDs. That means no **** before marriage. Pork (animals with hooves) are disease ridden. That means people shouldn't eat them. There are a huge number of internet resources that can further expand on this, since I'm not a Biblical scholar and I could easily word this incorrectly.
And yes, the stories are messed up. That was a completely different culture with more significant punishments for wrongdoings.
Additionally, old testament law does state that the punishment for **** before marriage is death, but I've read that wasn't even enforced most of the time.

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canthink

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I've read about a third of the bible, and it's probably the strongest tool disproving Christianity there is

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TylerMayhemDurden TylerMayhemDurden

In response to “I've read about a third of the bible, and...

Which third was it?

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canthink

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Okay, then how do you explain the impossibilities that aren't miracles?
I've read a few stories from the Bible and I'm familiar with the ones that I haven't read. I prefer to research the book rather than actually sit down and read it. I've tried that and it got boring very quickly.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “Okay, then how do you explain the...

Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with the old testament, where I'm guessing the impossibilities come from, so can you give me some examples?
I think it's also important to read things firsthand, especially religious documents. The Bible is interpreted differently by many scholars so it's most effective to read the most important books yourself to get a better idea of how to argue against Christianity.

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canthink

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It honestly isn't worth the effort. You said "they're supposed to be impossible. That's why they're called miracles." That's all I need to hear to know that you're beyond reason and nothing I say will make any difference to you.
I do appreciate you saying "I'm not saying you have to believe". That is a good attitude, and I thank you for that.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “It honestly isn't worth the effort. You said...

Did you read my response to the person below?
I don't believe that everything that's scientifically inaccurate in the Bible is meant to be a miracle. I realize that it's way too general of an argument to explain things away. However, especially in the gospel, some things are meant to be miracles. NOT all, by any means.
Just out of curiosity, though, have you read the Bible or any other religious texts?

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canthink

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So basically whenever something in the Bible doesn't make scientific sense you can just call it a miracle and then it's perfectly logical? Ok

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tag tag

In response to “So basically whenever something in the Bible...

Well, no. I'm not saying you can explain everything illogical away by calling it a miracle. There's a ton of information that I don't understand in the old testament and that I won't dismiss as a miracle. That's not the point of my argument at all.
The point is, the things Jesus (and others) did were supposed to be miracles and were treated as such in the Bible. By contrast, other things were socially and scientifically accurate and were also treated as such.
I'm just saying that a lot of things that weren't scientifically accurate weren't meant to be. I'm not saying that everything that doesn't make sense scientifically can be passed off as a miracle.

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canthink

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No. No, there is not. I'm not going to explain why there is no evidence pointing to the validity of the Bible and Christianity because that's such a ridiculous assertion.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “No. No, there is not. I'm not going to...

Why not explain? I'd like to hear it.

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canthink

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The thing is, there's actually a ton of academic evidence that points towards the validity of the Bible and Christianity. If you're at all interested, read Mere Christianity (CS Lewis) and/or The Reason for God (Timothy Keller), and that's just the beginning. There is very little scientific evidence that disproves Christianity, unless you're counting the scientific anomalies in the Bible. But the thing is: they're supposed to be impossible. That's why they're called miracles. Additionally, as someone said before, some scholars even believe that the Bible is a long parable, so the impossibilities don't really matter in terms of the truth of the Bible.
I'm not saying you have to believe. I'm just saying there's a lot of reasons people believe, and that living in a society like ours should not discredit those beliefs whether they're supported academically or personally.

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canthink

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Alright, guess it was a silly question for me to ask. Just felt like a hypocrite and have more issues with going to church than most. May end up deleting this thread.

+121 Reply

Anonymous

In response to “Alright, guess it was a silly question for me...

No, don't worry about it! I went through the same issues not too long ago, and it's never bad to have a second opinion. If you did go since then, I hope you enjoyed it. Never feel bad about reaching out, even if it's something that's seemingly very simple! :)

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canthink

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There's nothing wrong with going to church, in my opinion. Being open-minded is never bad.

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canthink

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I respectfully disagree. This post supports the "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" argument. Honestly, you can have your cake and your body too. The difference between obesity and enjoying food in general is the ability to trust your body to balance things out. If that means you eat a "healthier" meal after indulging, that's fine. But if that means you can't enjoy a piece of cake, something is wrong.

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canthink

In response to “I respectfully disagree. This post supports...

No, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sorry about that rant, it's just that I'm recovering from some eating issues myself (and just learning you can have cake and not be obese) and this post kind of reflected some things I would tell myself during the bad stages. I'm glad you clarified though, sometimes I jump to conclusions :)

+33 Reply

canthink

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I respectfully disagree. This post supports the "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" argument. Honestly, you can have your cake and your body too. The difference between obesity and enjoying food in general is the ability to trust your body to balance things out. If that means you eat a "healthier" meal after indulging, that's fine. But if that means you can't enjoy a piece of cake, something is wrong.

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canthink

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I'm so excited for Christmas this year! I can't wait for the holiday season :)

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canthink

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This made me really excited! I can't wait for Christmas. Seeing the lights through the snow, decorating, spending time with friends and family...it's the best time of the year. :)

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canthink

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Especially if you're a runner. I can't pin mine back (too long) or tuck them into a ponytail (too short), so they bounce around as I run. Really becomes a nuisance on long runs.

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canthink

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"Though famous for its beaches and cultural versatility, Earth is constantly bombarded through the hostility of its natural inhabitants. Recommended for those looking for a vacation that's out of the ordinary."

+1010 Reply

canthink

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