You can easily be nice, moral, AND smart without adhering to a religion of any kind.
Thats an extremely generalized statement. Plenty of people have done terrible and immoral things in the name of God.
Hitler was catholic...
Hitler was catholic.
Hitler was Christian/Catholic and he killed 11 million people. However, I know that this is not how most Catholics behave and that basing your opinion of a group of people on one person a seriously wrong. There are whole theological debates on whether or not there is a point in believing in morals if you are an atheist that cannot be summed up into one statement.
He was "Catholic". But being Catholic and saying you are Catholic are two different things.
You will never understand what I am trying to say, and if you treat people poorly you will never understand what Jesus is trying to say. People can be good and moral whilst also being atheist. People can also be awful and perverse in the name of religion. Hitler's religion had nothing to do with what he did. That is what I am trying to say. He obviously didn't truly believe in Catholicism. But being atheist wouldn't have made him evil either.
No, any one who is immoral would do something that bad. Atheists can be good people too. You don't have to fear God to do the right thing. Though I admit following a religion can make it easier to create a foundation for morals, because you have a specific place to learn them. Being atheist does not make people immoral. Just like calling yourself a Catholic doesn't make you good. To be good, you have to do what's right. I am using you in the general sense.
And just because they say there religis doesn't mean they will be nice all that shit they can still do the wrong thing
BTW there have never been even close to 10 billion people on the planet at any one time. If Hitler killed over 10 billion people we would be extinct.
Also, even if you say Hitler wasn't a "real Christian", that doesn't make him atheist by default, because atheists don't believe in a God, and Hitler calling himself Christian, even if he didn't follow the Christian practices, means he did believe in that God.
Also, everyone, you just got trolled. Check out this chick's profile, it's all for the lulz.
Yes, but you're saying he was atheist by default, which isn't true - if you believe in a deity, you're not an atheist. And, if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, and the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth, then that's some level of Christianity.
It's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy -
"Timmy is a Christian."
"Timmy punched an old lady last week"
"Oh, that means Timmy's not a REAL Christian."
People who believe in religion are capable of committing wrongs. However, it is completely different when someone believes that they are justified in murdering millions of people. Christianity teaches against this and to truly be Christian you have to believe in it and act upon it. There is a difference in doing something wrong and believing you are justified in doing it.
I wasn't saying that Hitler's faith had anything to do with his actions - the Nazis for the most part were fairly areligious. But, I'm just stating that anyone who doesn't follow certain religious practices or concept is not an atheist by default.
A belief in the Christian God, as well as believing that Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God, is a level of Christianity, albeit the smallest level, whether one follows other practices of Christianity or not.
This is true. There are many levels and forms of spiritual belief. I just disagreed with your example in the sense that "Timmy" most likely knew that what he did is wrong and therefor can call himself a Christian if he believes in it. To be a religion, you have to believe in its teachings. So yes there is a hypocrisy of not wanting to claim someone when they do something wrong, but if they believe what they did is right, and it goes against your teachings, then no they are not the professed religion.
I disagree, in that they may not be part of an organised religion if they don't follow the teachings, but that having faith and belief in the God of a particular religion indicates a minute level of said religion.
Also, I think using Hitler as an example is bad for any argument - he didn't do what he did in the name of any religion or lack of religion, he did it for social and political reasons.
No, you could be agnostic and believe in some sort of God or deity. To be a religion, you have to believe in it. It's more than just saying you are something. And yes, Hitler is a terrible example.
Yes, but agnostics don't believe in a specific God of deity.
Like, I reckon the most basic, utter minute level of Christianity is
1. You believe in the Christian God.
2. You believe that Jesus was the son of God.
3. You believe that Jesus, the son of God, died for humanity's sins.
Of course, there is much more to Christianity than that - the belief in the Bible as the word of God, and certain things that organised religious sects and institutions teach, but I reckon those three things would be the utter minimum. Does that make sense?
And, I do agree that saying you're something is completely different to actually being something - Hitler certainly wasn't a holy man by any means, and I personally don't know if he believed in the Christian God or not, but I don't think you can judge an individual's personal faith purely by their actions, and not their beliefs about God.
Agnostics mostly just do not believe in organized religion and think that God is unknowable, so I suppose you are correct. I also agree with you that the three things you mentioned are the minimum, but by believing in the Bible, you would be believing in the teachings of Christianity. For the last part, if a person shows, through their actions, that they do not follow the teachings of a religion, then they are not of that religion. If someone who says that they are Hindu kills a cow and doesn't believe that they have done anything wrong (according to the specific religion), then they really aren't Hindu, because they do not believe in the dogma.
Hmmm, that's a fair point you make, about if a person specifically goes against the basic teaching of a religion. I would still dispute the different between Christian faith, and organised Christian religion, though.
I think that's another example why Hitler is a bad example for anything - how people interpret religion to fit their agendas. Like, this isn't actually in Hitler's writings, but in the writings of modern day Neo Nazis - they talk about the world living in peace and harmony. And it's like WAT until you realise that they considered people that weren't of European origins, and disabled people, etc., to be subhumans, therefore everything the Bible says about treating people correctly only applies, in their minds, to white people - because they don't consider others to be real people. But, that's off topic to what we're talking about, because I don't think the Nazi party was motivated by either the Bible or the Christian religion.
How do you differentiate between of religion or of faith? By participation/membership in church? Because I agree that that there is a marked difference between people who claim a religion and not a church. Many Christians call themselves nondenominational when they do not follow a specific sect. I really did just mean, you cannot claim to be something when you do not truly believe in it.
I also find it abhorrent when people use religion as a means for violence or enslavement. People can twist anything into what they want. In my opinion, religion and faith should be something used to reach a greater understanding of the supernatural. Any religion that teaches hate or violence, is not something I could support or really fathom.
People are really capable of using anything as a weapon.
I'm not sure how I divide them. I'd say faith in more personal and more private, and kind of immeasurable - no one can possible know or determine another individual's beliefs, attitudes and relationships with God. That said, I do very much agree with you that there's a large different between simply claiming to be Christian, and then disregarding everything the religions teaches, or that Jesus taught.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree - that's why I added the disclaimer at the end - I don't blame the Christian religion at all for the actions of the Nazi party, it was just something I was musing about how, in their own minds, Neo Nazis probably think they're following the Bible - because they don't consider certain people to be humans, therefore anything they do them is not a crime against humans.
I really enjoyed discussing this with you, and you made me stop and think a few times. Thank you :)
And thank you! I almost never am able to have an intellectual conversation with somebody!
Hitler being an atheist is debatable, as he actually claimed to adhere to Catholicism.
But regardless of him being a Christian or atheist, how would you justify the Crusades? Those were in the name of religion.
Please ignore this person, the one who made the post. They are either a troll or an ignorant child.
Yeaaah. No more feeding the trolls.
They had "good intentions"? That doesn't even like...begin to make sense.
So ur saying it's ok to steal someone elses land because U think ur better than them for being a cathoic
When u said they had good intentions the crusades were about steeling the Muslims land
How about you stop shoving your religion down other peoples throats. I dont believe in god because there's no proof he exists, And my opinion is not going to change
There are no facts when it comes to religious beliefs.
No, there are only opinions.
Okay here we go: God answers prayers in three ways, yes, no, and wait, right? You can apply that same rule to anything and it will still be true. If you pray to a frog, it will "answer" your prayers in one of those three ways. If you pray for money, you might stumble upon $20 on the ground. That is a yes to your prayer. Or you may lose your home and job and never make another cent. That is obviously a no. Or maybe in 3 weeks you get a promotion. That was a wait. Oh look, the frog just answered your prayer. No matter what or who you pray to, your prayer will be answered in one of those ways
You aren't answering me. How do you counter my argument of praying to a frog has the same result as praying to God? That's like if I said "eat this banana and you will either get 1 million dollars or you won't get 1 million dollars". Now are you going to worship bananas when you get or don't get a million dollars? Probably not. But why? That is the same thing God does.
Well when you put it that way...
Your counter-argument to that is "yeah but God exists"? That is the worst argument for God I've ever heard. No logic or facts or theories or anything, just "yeah but God exists". Who do you think that's going to convince?
Explain to me again why God exists. Please. How can you prove that God exists? Saying something like "because he makes me a good person" doesn't count.
Nearly everything you said was incorrect. I'm a nice person to deserving people and I have plenty of morals. I'm probably a better person than a good 70% of the Christians I know. And LOL to the whole "smartest people were Christian"! Almost every "smart" icon was either atheist or agnostic.
So true :)
@1273935 (secretninja): HAHAHAHAHAHA. I'm an extremely nice person.
Thanks, but I'll pass.
Most of the founding fathers of America questioned or just plain bashed religion.
@1273964 (secretninja): The founding fathers were theists, but did not belong to a specific religion. They prayed to a generic God and worshiped Him. They called Him God because that was the English word for a supernatural deity, not His actual name.
By separating yourself from Christians you're making atheists sound like separate species with completely different morals. Christians really aren't any different as human beings. Therefore, if you are a more moral being than 70% of Christians, you are likely a more moral being than 70% of atheists/other religious people that you know. Overall, that just means that you are a moral being and that does not relate to your religious beliefs.
Obvious troll is obvious. You're twelve and fit all the internet stereotypes of twelve year olds. You're religious and fit all the religious stereotypes.
But anyway, I'm agnostic and I have morals. You know where I get my morals? Common sense. If it hurts people, don't do it. See, it's that easy.
-I shouldn't hit that old man, it would hurt him.
-I'm tempted to shoot at cats in the yard, but that would hurt them, so I won't do that.
-I love this girl, she loves me. I'll date her and fuck her because my relationships and sex life won't hurt anyone. And I won't cheat on her or leave her because that would be mean and hurt her feelings.
-I really wanna kill this kid, but his family will be upset so I won't do it.
^^ That is my mindset. It works pretty well.
It would hurt her feelings so you won't do it? So if the saying "what he/she doesn't know won't hurt them" goes you wouldn't mind cheating on her in secret? "I shouldn't hit that old man, it would hurt him." Really? How did you even reach that point of thinking of hitting him? Shouldn't the question "what did he ever do to me?" come first? I doubt this is how you really differentiate right and wrong, this was probably just a poor choice of words.
If she found out she would be hurt so I won't do it. I love her too much to ever cheat on her anyway.
I reached that point of thinking because I had to think like an individual who has never been taught right from wrong. People don't usually think "What did he ever do to me," unless they were taught to do so. I was trying to say that people learn morals by observation. They do something that hurts someone and someone does something that hurts them and then it clicks and they realize, "Hey, doing mean stuff hurts people. I don't like getting hurt so I won't hurt others." It's my theory for how The Golden Rule and Karma came about.
Are you kidding or are you serious...?
How do I do that?
I've tried praying. No one heard me.
If he won't talk to non-believers like me because we are non-believers, how do you expect us to ever believe? He only reveals himself to those who believe, which means that no atheist can ever believe in him because to believe we need evidence, and we only get evidence if we believe? That is just wonderful
How has God affected your life? And I don't mean something like "the church has helped homeless people in my community", or "faith in God has helped me through hard times". I want to know how God has personally reached down and touched your life.
That's exactly what I didn't want to hear. Thats called the placebo affect.
Well I haven't wasted an hour every Sunday of my life going to church. I have actually gotten up and helped myself, not just waited for God to help me.
So God loves us all, unless we don't love him? Then he let's u's burn forever..
I hate it when people try to shove religion down my throat! I will believe what I want to believe! Mind your own business.
Actually all those were opinions:
"He will make you nice and you'll be moral" - OPINION
"Did you know that some of the smartest people were Christians" - OPINION
Again, that is an opinion.
what are you basing that assumption on?
What the hell are you talking about?! You CANNOT assume that ALL atheists are "mean" and "stupid" just because a few that you have met are. You are very ignorant.
I am an atheist. I am smarter than most of the people at my school. I read books with words in them that half of my classmates couldn't even pronounce. I volunteer at an animal shelter. I plan to start some sort of program when I am older to help abused animals and to raise awareness that breeds like pitbulls are not naturally vicious, and I am going to save hundreds of dog's lives by doing this. I've stopped (Christian) people from killing rabbits because I believe that if an animal didn't do anything to hurt you, you should leave it alone. I talk to my friends and make them happy when they get depressed. Okay, I think we have established that I am more moral and nice and caring and smarter than many many religious people. Your argument has been obliterated. Way to generalize atheists. What if I said that since I met a Christian person that bullied me, all Christians are stupid bullies? That is essentially what you are saying, only pertaining to atheists. Re...
Your so ignorant!!
Thank you :) And I suggest learning more about other religions, have an open mind. Okay? Oh and nice picture.
... I was being sarcastic.
Because people think and act differently. You are making up a stereotype of atheists...
No... It's easy to be good without god.
Woah, wait!! YOU ARE 12 YEARS OLD?!?!?! Hahahahaha. I probably know more about the bible than you!
I never said you were stupid...
Nope. I just said you are young.
"Why would those atheists be any different then all the rest?"
... I can't even believe you set yourself up for that. The majority of the christians I know are stupid bitches. That must mean you are too.
That would be the point.
I agree keep ur Jesus freaken to urself I think ur trying to stir up trouble or land on the worst of amirite, amirite?
Cool story, bro :]
You are such an ignorant brainwashed child...I am actually laughing out loud reading your comments.
You said earlier that religious people tend to be more moral and smarter than atheists. That sounds pretty mean to me. Putting down atheists?
Okay well a lot of religious people are mean too. And how many atheists have you met, and how many of them have been mean? And also they are probably mean to you just because of the way you generalize, stereotype, and insult them.
No, they are mean because they have no morals
That is not true at all. Do atheists say that murder is okay? Or say that it is okay to rob people? Or say that it is okay to bully people? No
It's easy to say "oh, just believe in god." If I asked you to not believe in god, you couldn't do that because you can't change your beliefs out of nowhere. Take it this way.
Don't believe in god. Right now, stop believing.
However you felt about not changing your beliefs just now is exactly how atheists feel when you tell them that. You can't just give something a chance if you don't want to. If I tell you that puke is the tastiest thing in the world, you're never going to eat it. Simply because you can't will yourself to do it, it's out of your control. Beliefs aren't controllable. They come with how you think.
Yah, that's true...I guess you really can't. But as christians we just can't turn our backs on God but being atheist you really have nothing to lose believing in God. "They come with how you think" I understand that but its why you think this way that's important. If beliefs come from how you think then understanding how you think can help us understand your belief. Atheists here really don't want to believe in God, which I don't understand. Atheists are probably not all like this because the atheists here are probably the ones that care enough to prove Christians wrong.
The definition of hell is a place without god so I don't think anything would change
did someone come back from hell and tell you that?
Do you believe anything anyone tells you?
The definition of u is jesus freak emphesis on the freak
Just because u belive in god doesn't not mean I are automaticly nice think about all the preists butt fucking little kids right now
How now those little kids will be scared for life and live in terror for a long time
U proably also think gay ppl shod go to hell