Gay marriage should be up to the church. From a non-christian point of view, it seems rather obvious that the government can't control christian practices, unless of course the first amendment doesn't exist. amirite?
If you think that marriage is a soley christian concept then you have an extremely narrow worldview. Did you forget people of other religions or atheists, or couples of differing beliefs? It doesn't take a church to perform a marriage. You must at least know one other, that a captain of a ship can perform it. But there's loads of different options.
Exactly what I'm saying. Gay marriage is only a problem for Christians/religious people because they believe (from their RELIGIOUS views, not political views) that marriage should be between a man and a woman.
So why "Gay marriage should be up to the church?" when you're specifically talking about gay christians (of which there really aren't many) and not gay people as a whole?
And like I just said, a church isn't the only place you can get married. There are government rules based methods of getting married that don't involve a church atall. It's these purely practical secular methods that virtually all gay marriage supporters are concerned about, not specifically religious methods.
And such arguments unfortunately extend into politics, how people vote, and how laws are made. Your country might have a separation of state, but that doesn't make it secular in law if those in positions of changing them are biased (which everyone is).
They really shouldn't though. As greatlamp3 said "It's not a political matter though, so you can't just vote to make it illegal. Making something illegal is a politcal matter. You shouldn't make something that's not of political concern illegal." Gay marriage shouldn't have to be voted on at all. People have the right to be against gay marriage all they want, but they don't have the rightto impose their will on others... even though right now they do.
THIS. EXACTLY. Pretty much sums up how I feel when people say, "oh, well I won't let my religious beliefs affect anyone else but myself, so don't get all uppity." Despite the good (naive) intentions behind those words, the notion is impossible to me. To get to a position of (political, legislative, etc.) power in the US, you can only get far if you declare some type of religious affiliation and subsequently appease your followers. I remember Obama getting a ton of flack for not definitively saying he identified with Christianity.
sidenote: A deeply religious friend of mine said that she believed that gay marriages should be legal government-wise, but that churches should not be forced to recognize them; that way both sides "win." I'm actually fine with the idea b/c why would a gay couple frequent churches they knew to be hostile anyway? I would be interested to hear opinions (of the non-gays-go-to-hell variety) opposing this though.
That's the way it is. Like I said, marriage is a legal status, not a ceremony, although a couple may get a marriage ceremony if they wish. No gay marriage legislation will force a church to perform a marriage ceremony for same-sex couples - it's a non-issue.
I guess I wasn't really clear in my comment. I agree with you in that marriage is a legal status. I was more asking religious people what they thought about my friend's mindset because she's the first religious person I've met who has even considered that marriage recognized by the church can be separate from marriage recognized by the state. I wasn't really thinking about churches being forced to perform the actual ceremony b/c that'd never fly - moreso about what comes with church acceptance (e.g. marriage counseling with the priest? benefits? sing-alongs? idk). It would have been interesting to hear from gay Christians as well and their views on that b/c they'd probably like to be recognized by both. Though I do have a gay Catholic friend who told me he didn't support gay marriage spiritually or legally, which boggled my mind a little...
Should be up to no one. You can be against gay marriage all you want, but no one should have the right to impose their will onto others. People vote to make it illegal because they don't like it but as you said it is not a political matter and should not even have to be voted on.
I was saying the place they marry should decide whether or not they support gay marriage. But maybe it shouldn't even be up to them and just accepted everywhere.
It's not a political matter though, so you can't just vote to make it illegal. Making something illegal is a politcal matter. You shouldn't make something that's not of political concern illegal.
Marriage isn't a Christian practice. Marriage is a legal status of a relationship that gives the couple certain state and government rights. Even though some people may choose to make their marriage religious, such as have a Christian, or Jewish, or Hindu ceremony, it doesn't make marriage itself religious.
Correct. But again, the only reason the government is against it is because of religious or homophobic reasons.
Religious - Christians believe marriage should be between a man and a woman
Homophobics - Obviously they'd be against it
If you think that marriage is a soley christian concept then you have an extremely narrow worldview. Did you forget people of other religions or atheists, or couples of differing beliefs? It doesn't take a church to perform a marriage. You must at least know one other, that a captain of a ship can perform it. But there's loads of different options.
Exactly what I'm saying. Gay marriage is only a problem for Christians/religious people because they believe (from their RELIGIOUS views, not political views) that marriage should be between a man and a woman.
So why "Gay marriage should be up to the church?" when you're specifically talking about gay christians (of which there really aren't many) and not gay people as a whole?
Church as in whoever marries the couple. Each individual 'church' has its own rules.
And like I just said, a church isn't the only place you can get married. There are government rules based methods of getting married that don't involve a church atall. It's these purely practical secular methods that virtually all gay marriage supporters are concerned about, not specifically religious methods.
But saying gays can't marry is a religious issue, not a government issue. All the arguments against gay marriage are religious or homophobic.
And such arguments unfortunately extend into politics, how people vote, and how laws are made. Your country might have a separation of state, but that doesn't make it secular in law if those in positions of changing them are biased (which everyone is).
They really shouldn't though. As greatlamp3 said "It's not a political matter though, so you can't just vote to make it illegal. Making something illegal is a politcal matter. You shouldn't make something that's not of political concern illegal." Gay marriage shouldn't have to be voted on at all. People have the right to be against gay marriage all they want, but they don't have the rightto impose their will on others... even though right now they do.
Right
THIS. EXACTLY. Pretty much sums up how I feel when people say, "oh, well I won't let my religious beliefs affect anyone else but myself, so don't get all uppity." Despite the good (naive) intentions behind those words, the notion is impossible to me. To get to a position of (political, legislative, etc.) power in the US, you can only get far if you declare some type of religious affiliation and subsequently appease your followers. I remember Obama getting a ton of flack for not definitively saying he identified with Christianity.
sidenote: A deeply religious friend of mine said that she believed that gay marriages should be legal government-wise, but that churches should not be forced to recognize them; that way both sides "win." I'm actually fine with the idea b/c why would a gay couple frequent churches they knew to be hostile anyway? I would be interested to hear opinions (of the non-gays-go-to-hell variety) opposing this though.
That's the way it is. Like I said, marriage is a legal status, not a ceremony, although a couple may get a marriage ceremony if they wish. No gay marriage legislation will force a church to perform a marriage ceremony for same-sex couples - it's a non-issue.
I guess I wasn't really clear in my comment. I agree with you in that marriage is a legal status. I was more asking religious people what they thought about my friend's mindset because she's the first religious person I've met who has even considered that marriage recognized by the church can be separate from marriage recognized by the state. I wasn't really thinking about churches being forced to perform the actual ceremony b/c that'd never fly - moreso about what comes with church acceptance (e.g. marriage counseling with the priest? benefits? sing-alongs? idk). It would have been interesting to hear from gay Christians as well and their views on that b/c they'd probably like to be recognized by both. Though I do have a gay Catholic friend who told me he didn't support gay marriage spiritually or legally, which boggled my mind a little...
You don't HAVE to get married in a church or by the church.
So you think whether gay marriage is legal or not should be up to the government?
So because I don't think it should be left to the church, that means I do think it should be left to the government?
Who else is there?
Should be up to no one. You can be against gay marriage all you want, but no one should have the right to impose their will onto others. People vote to make it illegal because they don't like it but as you said it is not a political matter and should not even have to be voted on.
I was saying the place they marry should decide whether or not they support gay marriage. But maybe it shouldn't even be up to them and just accepted everywhere.
Accepted everywhere. Bad things happen when you don't have set laws and let people follow their own.
It should be up to the people. Isn't that democracy?
It's not a political matter though, so you can't just vote to make it illegal. Making something illegal is a politcal matter. You shouldn't make something that's not of political concern illegal.
yeah all those pregnant 16 year olds get married in court.
Marriage isn't a Christian practice. Marriage is a legal status of a relationship that gives the couple certain state and government rights. Even though some people may choose to make their marriage religious, such as have a Christian, or Jewish, or Hindu ceremony, it doesn't make marriage itself religious.
Correct. But again, the only reason the government is against it is because of religious or homophobic reasons.
Religious - Christians believe marriage should be between a man and a woman
Homophobics - Obviously they'd be against it