Hence why the OP said "Just a regular person like anyone else on earth."
Meaning if he wasn't God and didn't do all the great things he does.
Meaning it would just be some guy going around saying "DAMN YOU, DAMN YOU TO HELL."
where`d you get the notion that God damns people to hell? the reason each and every person was born destined to hell is because of our sin nature not because of a lack of praise ( though that is one of the results of sin).... if u ask me, sending ur child to die for hateful, ungracious, wicked, selfish, and vain people is the ultimate expression of love.
ya but theres the whole thing about being turned away at the gates of heaven because you denied his divinity your whole life. A good, caring, and thoughtful human being could be sent to hell juust because he deinied his divinity.
But if the person did not have the grace to accept God, which God would know because He can see into everyone's heart, he or she would not be damned to Hell, nor would he or she for involuntary ignorance.
It's not a black and white, you don't accept me, you're going to Hell. It's a why didn't you accept me? Could you have but you didn't want to?
If a person was never told of the existence of God and Christianity, but was still a kind, helpful person all their life, I think God would forgive them because it wouldn't be their fault.
God makes it known to each and every one of his creations that He exists. He does not just leave them to not know who He is...
So if you were kept in solitary confinement all your life, with only meals brought to you (with no messages hidden in the peas), you would somehow figure out on your own the complicated story of Jesus dying for our sins and coming back to life and God and everything?
No, He would find a way to reach you. He would be present in your life.
God will not accept sin period. That is why missionaries go all over the world to try and tell everyone. Christians were commanded to in Mark 16:15. Unfortunately, ignorance will not be a plausible excuse
I agree. That's what I was trying to get at in my comment too. :-)
Being a kind, helpful person cannot earn anybody's way to Heaven. The ONLY way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus as the one to have been sacrificed for all the band things we've ever done, in our place. Any other way, a person has no redemption for their sins, and cannot get into Heaven.
So if you don't believe Jesus was divine or anything, you're not getting into heaven?
846: "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847: This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848: Although in ways known to Himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.
1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inor...
...inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
This is what I believe being Catholic. I guess it kind of depends. Either way I don't pretend to know who exactly is going to heaven and who isn't, but I have hope that God is merciful.
If you don't accept Jesus as the sacrifice to take your punishment for all the sins you've committed, then you can't get into Heaven. There's no other way to be redeemed for all of the bad things you've ever done.
What if you don't believe heaven? No harm done I guess.
You're free to believe whatever what you want, but that doesn't change the truth.
What's the point of being in Heaven?
To be with the God that loves you, forever? Eternal happiness, joy, peace, love, and all that comes with it? Avoid a place where there is no love, no happiness, no peace?
If God cares more about whether I believe in Him as my Savior or whatever than He does about how I treat my fellow human being, I don't want to be around Him. Ever.
Not saying that He doesn't care about how I treat my fellow being, but if believing in Him or not is the make-it-or-break-it of going to Heaven, He's not my kind of God.
Also, you can find love and happiness on Earth.
Can you find love and happiness on earth that is free from pain, disappointment, or lonliness? No.
It's not about whether or not you believe in Jesus; it's whether or not you take His gift of salvation. Without accepting Jesus to have taken the punishment for every bad thing you've ever done, you have no other way to be redeemed. No good thing you do can take away a bad thing - and God can't be in the presence of sin. The point of Jesus dying on the cross was so that anybody could accept Him to be the sacrifice that would cover their sins and make them pure in God's sight.
That's bull. You can, if you don't care, be like, "Oh, well Jesus died for this -" and then stab someone to death 'cause he slept with your wife.
(Not YOUR wife, you're a girl. But you know what I mean.)
I mean, that's extreme, but apparently it has the same repercussions as anything - none, from God anyway.
Like, you're saying God's all, oh, you know, be good to your fellow man and stuff, but if your ass is covered anyway why should you care? What's the point of the Ten Commandments then? They're "COMMANDments" for a reason, no?
My point still stands - I don't want to be around God if what makes or breaks my going into Heaven has everything to do with my relationship with Him and nothing at all to do with my relationships with everyone around me.
The decision to accept Christ is one that a person makes in their heart - not just what they say. A person who has truly accepted Christ will without a doubt feel conviction for their sins and will desire to be Christ-like. They won't be perfect, because no one is, but they will put in the effort to be as Christ-like as possible.
The thing you have to understand is, it wasn't God's decision for it to be that way. The fact of the matter is, God is perfect, and CANNOT be around sinful beings. Any and all sins committed by any person by default condemn them to Hell. That is why God sent His Son to die as a perfect sacrifice, in our place, so that we could get to Heaven. He offers this gift of salvation free to ANYONE who wants it - it's not a bad offer. Who else do you know that would be watch their son die for your eternal salvation?
So now I'm damned to Hell forever. Why isn't there a time limit? I get this amount of time in Hell for this sin, and that amount of time in Hell for that sin, and so on and so forth until I've served my time. And then I've been rightfully punished and should therefore have them erased.
And to be honest I don't know anyone who would watch their son die for my eternal salvation, but then if I did I'd think they're messed up. But you can't really compare the two, because one is supposedly God and the other is a human.
You are only damned to Hell is you choose to be damned to Hell. There is no time limit because regardless of how much time you spend in Hell, you will never gain redemption. You can't decide to accept Jesus as your savior once you are in Hell. And nothing can erase your sins but faith in what Jesus did on the cross.
It DOES seem kind of messed up, doesn't it? That some one would choose to be separated from their Son, via death, because they loved you so much? Because they loved someone who continually denied them and spat in their face and disobeyed them? It seems messed up that Someone would love that kind of person enough to send their Son as a sacrifice to be their salvation. You know what's even more messed up? That despite that huge sacrifice, there are still people who won't accept that sacrifice, who won't take that free gift, because they want to live their own way instead.
Before I respond to this, I want to come back to something I sort of missed in what you said before - how do you connect "Jesus is my savior and died for all my sins" with "I should try my best to be Christ-like"? I'm missing the bit where "I won't get punished for my sins" connects to "I should try my best not to do any".
That's a bit off-topic, but ok.
When a person truly accepts Jesus as their savior (in their heart, not just with their mouth), they are saved. They will not go to Hell or bear the eternal punishment for their sins. However, they will bear consequences on this earth for the wrong things they do. That is why, when people accept Christ, He works in them to strengthen them and give them the desire to do what is right and not what the world says they should do. People who are saved by Christ aren't perfect, obviously. They will trip up just like everyone else. But, they will feel guilt for their sins and work to be more Christ-like, in most cases.
Again, people who are saved don't necessarily always become more Christ-like. However, I would venture to say that if one doesn't feel any desire to serve Christ after fully realizing what he's done for them on the cross, they did not truly accept Him. If they have, they are just going to live with their consequences and never fulfill the plan that God has for them. Neither is a great option.
So I'm thinking that when one dies they find out what's correct about life and God. Obviously they can't decide not to do any more sins now because they're not capable, but once you die you would certainly be shown what's right about God. And then, I'm thinking, one would be able to believe in Jesus and stuff. And then, you know, forever is a damn long time to be punished for something you realize was wrong and regret.
When a person dies, their time is up. There is no more time to choose Jesus. A person doesn't have to have everything right and straight with what they believe in order to be saved; they merely have to accept Jesus as the sacrifice for their sins, and that He is the only way to Heaven. All else is fluff. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp and believe in.
Yes, forever is a long time. But, there is no other way. A person who dies without redemption is covered in every sin they have ever committed, with no way to earn or accept a Savior to take their punishment for them. It's a terrible punishment, but every person is given the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. EVERY human decides for themselves whether they will go to heaven or hell.
So they can't do anymore right but they can realize what's right and decide that if they could, they'd do it over again. They still have a MIND, even if there's no way for them to carry out what they want to do.
Hell is supposed to be a punishment, right? And us non-omniscient beings punish our kids, or the government punishes its citizens, a) for the sake of punishing, and b) to learn that what they did is wrong. Forever is a damn long time to be punished for the sake of punishing, and if learning that what they did is wrong isn't going to help them, there may just as well be heaven or limbo and no hell. Isn't Jesus supposed to be merciful?
Also, there's the thing where everybody's different and any religion does take a damn good bit of faith without at least one open miracle or two. For some people, they need more than faith to go on because that's just the way they are. They've seen fucked-up things or been fucked over, by people of their faith or not, or they just see no reason to believe in any religion. You're actually telling me they're going to be judged the same?
Hell is not a punishment, it is payment. The price of sin is an eternity in Hell; therefore, if one does not have a Savior to have paid that price for them, they have to pay it themselves.
Jesus IS merciful; He gives each and every one of us a chance to accept Him as the payment for our sins. He gave us this beautiful world to live in, He willingly sacrificed Himself so that we could have eternal salvation, and gives us that option free of any cost -all we have to do is accept His gift. I believe that is not only merciful, but gracious.
Yes, everyone will be judged the same. Bad experiences with religious people are not an excuse nor a waiver for the payment of their sins. Bad things happen to everyone, because this world is full of sin and evil. Bad things happen to both people of faith and people without faith - the difference is that people of faith trust that God will take care of them and their situation.
Well kudos to you to have such strong faith, but that's completely unfair and rather irrational. Let's say there's a Christian who's gone through some brutal shit, like his brother got mugged and then killed for no good reason and his mom hung herself afterward and then his dad went off the deep end and now him and his dad are being thrown out of the house because he couldn't pay the rent, his dad being out of a job and him being, like, a teenager. Asking him to still remain faithful is asking a huge amount. Kudos to him if he does and I know there are people out there in really tough situations who do, but everybody's different and everybody's situation is different.
Going through bad situations in your life is not an excuse to not have faith, nor is it a waiver to get into Heaven without accepting Christ. Does it make it ok to murder someone if you've had a really hard life and it was a bad day? Does it make it ok to cheat on your significant other because you went through some really bad stuff and feel that you need to? Having difficult situations in life isn't an excuse to do more bad things, just like it's not an excuse to give up faith in God.
And, regardless of how many bad things have happened in a person's life, they've still sinned at some point, and without Christ they have no way to be redeemed in the end. No amount of excuses can change that.
You absolutely can never draw a comparison between not believing in something and freaking murdering someone. There's absolutely no comparison. None. At all, whatsoever to speak of. Nor cheating on your spouse, for that matter. Not believing in something is only between you and that thing. Murder and adultery is between you and another person, or multiple people. Your priest would probably agree with me, that for a lot of people it's extremely difficult - and sometimes impossible - to have faith when they've gone through extreme trauma and this is completely reasonable.
And if, say, you're to agree with me, because this is the only way I can reply to your second point, then the idea that people won't go to Heaven because they didn't believe in Christ - even if they were absolutely upstanding citizens of society - is absolutely unjust. But we're going in circles with this point and should probably drop it because we're just not going to agree.
It's not just not believing in it; to choose not to believe in God is to blame God for your problems and say that you have a right not to believe in Him and still get to go to Heaven because of it.
My priest...? I'm not catholic.
It's never "impossible" to have faith, regardless of the trauma. My mother went through some absolutely terrible things throughout her childhood, including abuse and neglect within her family. She was depressed for many, many years, and had to raise two children as basically a single parent because my father was in and out of rehab and spent all his money on drugs or alcohol. All of that crap could have been a real good excuse not to believe in God, couldn't it have? She could have blamed Him for what she went through and decided not to believe in Him. But instead, through the years she has chosen to cling to Him and let Him heal the parts of her that have been broken by the things that the devil put in her life to bring her down. So don't try to tell me that trauma can make it impossible to have faith, because the reality is that that's a lie. The devil will do anything to make people believe that they don't need God, and that is one of his lies.
As to your second statement, it's not unjust. If a person has committed any sin in their lifetime, then they are stained by imperfection. No matter how 'absolutely upstanding' they are, they have sinned at some point and are not perfect. They NEED redemption for their sin. They need a pure sacrifice - just like people in the Old Testament had to sacrifice pure animals to cleanse them of sin, people need to accept Jesus as their perfect sacrifice. It's completely free, and it's sad how many people won't accept it because of their own pride or because of lies that they are fed by the devil.
I may have used "believe" in the sense of believing He exists or not; if I didn't, pushing aside the argument of Jesus-is-your-savior, I'm still saying that I don't see why God cares >more< about whether you believe in the whole Jesus thing than whether you were good to your fellow being.
Priest, pastor, Father, idk.
Non-sarcastic kudos to your mom, but some people aren't as strong as her.
Still thinking the whole thing doesn't work, now tired of arguing it. I say we drop this bit. Just pointing out, though, that the sacrifice wasn't the only bit of redemption from sin.
It's not that God 'cares more'; it's the fact that everyone needs redemption for their sins. The price of sin is, as it has been since Adam and Eve, death and an eternity apart from God and love. Sin is the reason we are separated from God. Therefore, sins have to be atoned for in some way. In the Old Testament, people would sacrifice animals to atone for their sins and cleanse themselves in the eyes of God; after Jesus died and became the ultimate sacrifice, people didn't have to do that anymore. Jesus IS the ultimate sacrifice of atonement for sin, and all anyone has to do is accept His love in order to be able to be with God forever in Heaven.
It wasn't by her own strength that she survived all that. God gave her strength, and He will give anyone strength who asks for it.
I don't know what you mean by "the sacrifice wasn't the only bit of redemption from sin."
...I think I got it now. I still don't agree with it but I'm just not going to. Thanks for actually being so patient though. o_O
And those who have given up? I'm not going to continue arguing with you about whether they were correct in giving up or not, but do you agree it can at least be understandable?
Like today, there are 3 parts of redemption. I don't know what every part of redemption was back then, but considering - well say, for example, you spoke about someone behind their back. That's a sin between you and another person (and God, but that's not the point) (as opposed to a sin between you and just God). The three parts of repentance are asking forgiveness from that person, saying you won't do it again, and asking forgiveness from God. I'm assuming, because I haven't really looked into it, that the sacrifice was the last bit, so there needed to be something else for the other 2 bits - very possibly the same thing as today but I don't know for sure.
The ultimate expression of love kills 9 million children under 5 years old every year.
Flame war inbound
Jesus was the closest to being God in human form
So god is a crazy homeless guy walking around in sandals?
Crazy? He wasn't homeless. And what's wrong with sandals?
what do you mean crazy?
i'm going with no way because if god was real, even being a god that's still a dick move.
Why did people no way this? The keyword was if he was a human.
Seriosuly, i got nothing against christianity or god or anything. But as a stated, "If god was jsut a regular person like anyone else." Im not saying he actuay damns people to hel jsut because they dot beleive in him, but he was down on earth with no divine powers or anything, you would think that hes conceited. like if you met someone who damned you to hell because u wouldnt praise them, you would thi k thats theyre pretty conceited.