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The majority of the wage gap is not a result of gender discrimination. Instead, it exists because of numerous factors which are intentionally left untouched by feminist organizations, amirite?

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
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@1762196

This is largely true. But I hate the fact that because I have a working womb, there's the possibility that an employee will not be as likely to take me on because I might get pregnant. I don't want children, and quite frankly can't envision a future where I'll ever want children.

I don't think there's anywhere you can put that on your CV either, or if I did I don't know if they'd even believe it.

I think it's unfair to say that ALL feminist organisations purposely skew the information to make it look like there is wage discrimination, because I'm certain you can't have read all of the organisation's literature on the matter.

@1762196

ashbashcrashed - you're right, it's very unfair that just because women have the potential to become pregnant, they are considered riskier to hire than men. Especially when you consider that any efforts to have women prove that they are not trying to get pregnant, or even trying NOT to get pregnant, would amount to an invasion of privacy.

@B10ckH34d - OMG NATURE IS SO SEXIST UGH

@1762196

...Did you really not get that that was a joke?

@1762196

I think the key word here is 'overall'. Both men and women have advantages and disadvantages, making them equal with all things taken into account. Unfortunately, the things important for working are biologically skewed toward the men's side.

I've said it before, and at the risk of sounding sexist, I'll say it again. Nature has differentiated men and women so men take care of the current generation by not having to stop working, and in olden days by being stronger and better hunters etc. Women's bodies are made to accommodate the next generation, carrying them during pregnancy and nourishing them (before the invention of milk formula or using animal milk), thereby ensuring the continuity of species.

I think the problem is that the current generation stuff gets a monetary reward while the next generation stuff is compensated for in other ways, if at all.

@1762196

Yeah I just took it as an opportunity to expand on my point.

@1762196

Nature isn't sexist. The difference was made before we decided what should be paid and what shouldn't. considering that the next generation stuff makes sure there is a next generation and the current generation stuff supports them and advances civilisation, thye are both equally important, but the current generation stuff is like a secondary industry and the next is like priamry industry. Both industries are equally important for the development of a country, and the primary one is harder and the secondary is 'more fun'.

The way I see it, there should be laws against husbands not giving their wives enough money for no reason. Before marriage there's really no way to protect women from accidental pregnancy.

Male and female are opposites. Total equality is not economically (for companies) viable, so the best we can do is make laws to prevent men from taking advantage of the position we were given, or have like artificial wombs in hospitals. Come to think of it, if we can do that to erase the functional (not aesthetic) differences between male and female bodies, equality would be possible. Plus, women could further their careers without being more or less incapacitated for 9 months.

Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS.

A couple of problems with it :

It doesn't take into account any amount of testing/experiments done on this issue. Identical resumes are sent to employers, one male one female, guess who gets the call back the majority of the time? Just coincidence, is it? (Similar testing is done with white sounding names versus more ethnic names with similar results, but that's a bit off subject.)

"Total hours paid" - They're suggesting that the reason women appear to be paid less is because men just work longer hours so when you average it out it just seems that women are paid less. What they leave out is that they included part time workers in that "study." Of course they are working less, those people were specifically part time. And often times employers will fill part time positions with females while males are offered more substantial work. But even with similar hours, experience, education, etc women are still underpaid.

OK, experience. Time and time again women are hired to do menial jobs, never gaining work experience that was offered to their male counterparts, to their disadv...

Anonymous +8Reply
@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

How can they ever expect to move forward if they can't gain the work experience that they need?

Women are still assumed to be the caretaker. Women are constantly asked about their home responsibilities (children) while mostly men are not. Does she have to take them to school? Who will pick them up? What if they get sick, how much time off will she need? Oh, I can see she's a risky hire! While with men it's assumed that he has a dutiful wife to take on all of those responsibilities. It's almost never assumed he would perform such womanly duties. I guess there are no such thing as single fathers.

Look kid, it doesn't take a genius to see that women continue to get the short end of the stick, or why. What I don't understand is why people insist on denying it. It's difficult enough being a woman trying to make a career, now try throwing ethnicity into the mix. Or poverty. Kid, the world is full of prejudice and discrimination. Open your eyes.

Anonymous +9Reply
@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

I see what you mean. I will admit that I've complained about the wage gap before, but I acknowledge there are obviously tonnnes of reasons why it exists, not just that 'evil employers hate women'.

I can also understand why you would get sick of all these people just harping on about how women get paid less because evil men blah blah blah.

There are different types of feminists. Some hate men, some want to shift the balance so that women have the edge over men and others (I include myself in this group) just want to be viewed as equals to men. Not better. Not worse. Just equal. I want men to be able to cross dress without being called a faggot, and for women to not have to put up with 'women can't drive' jokes. I want mixed gender sport teams. I want people to stop saying women who join the army are distractions (Rick Santorum... grr).

I personally think these issues are what feminist groups should be focusing on, because each year the wage gap is decreasing.

@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

Ah, I forgot all women have children to look after. Silly me. I remember reading an article which said that women who have higher education are often marrying 'beneath' them (with regard to education and job prospects) because more women get University degrees. But, it is likely that women who have a partner with a good job will be more able to stay at home to look after the children.

In recent years however, more men are staying at home to look after their children, and what is happening even more than that is the care is being split between both parents. And the likliness of this happening is rising. Obviously there are still plenty of men who believe a man's worth is in his work, and a woman's worth is in keeping the household running. Plenty of women still believe this too.

I'm getting a bit off topic here. But, what I'm trying to say is I don't see the running of the home and children as a menial job. It's an important job, just as earning the money to run it is. However, I would just like to say I am glad that women can also work if they want to, as I want to.

Feminism is all about opening up choices; as someone who doesn't want kids or to get married this is very importan

@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

t to me. I also love voting, so the women of the past who fought for these new choices and rights are dear to me.

I'm extremely glad I was born when I was. Because if I'd been born before feminism I think I would have gone crazy.

Yet there is still a lot to be improved on. There are some people who call themselves feminists who judge other women on what they want to do-be it a stay at home mother or a mechanic (all while calling other women sluts and then complaining about either society or men slut shaming). Both jobs are just as important as the other, and it doesn't matter which body parts you have while you're doing them. I hope there is a day where a man will not be mocked for wanting to look after his children, and a woman will not be scorned for not wanting children (as I frequently am. People use the most hideous excuses as to why I will change my mind one day when I know I won't, such as "you just haven't met the right man' [I have] and "you'll understand one day" which isn't really a good reason.)

Okay that was entirely off topic sorry. But it's related to this post, definitely.

@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

...There are more men employed than women, so I'd say that's not true with the whole affirmative action thing.
And, women are the ones who usually get made redundant in times of recession first, as much fuss is made about all of the unemployed men.

@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

I wasn't denying the existence of help for women in gaining employment, however I've often found that it's in fields which are typically 'male' such as maths and the sciences.

Also, above you mentioned women take 'long leaves of absences' as a reason they don't gain experience.
Men don't? Also the only long leave of absence I can think of a woman taking is maternity leave, but the way you phrased it made it seem like women were taking a lot of time off work because they could.

@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

The long leaves of absence are to take care of their child. My mom, for example, was a stay-at-home mom for about 10 years. I also assume this happens more often among college-educated women because they're more likely to marry college-educated men who can financially support them while they stay home to raise their child (and because of this, women in professional careers, where experience is most needed, are likely to have less experience). Men don't generally quit their jobs to take care of their children.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are 0Reply
@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

Oh, it's just you said "women take long leaves of absence" and I get fairly bitchy about things like people expecting all women to have children.

Yep, my gender roles thing was entirely off topic. Sorry about that.

Out of interest, which feminist groups are doing that?

Also isn't America one of the only four countries in the world which doesn't give paternity leave? And you guys get fairly bad maternity leave don't you? Seems like a fairly bad deal.

Well. I'm still unsure how to vote on this post to be honest. I agree that there are a lot of other factors as to why there are wage gaps, but I also believe gender discrimination does have a part to play. However, the amount varies from country to country. Perhaps I should just pretend it says "in America" so I can vote on it, because then I think I could agree with you (just spent the last year immersed in American governemt and politics and this came up a fair bit in all the background reading). Though I'm still unsure about the whole 'feminist organisations are saying it's the only reason' thing.

@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

Here's one (National Organization of Women):
http://www.now.org/press/04-11/04-12.html

They don't directly state that the wage gap exists solely because of discrimination, of course, but it's the only implied reason apparent in the article, and that leads many people to believe it is the only reason. Still, to be honest, the article is not a great example. I guess I meant more feminist individuals than feminist organizations.

Also, perhaps I'm being overly harsh on these organizations. It wouldn't exactly make a strong case if they said "Women earn less money than men. And the vast majority of that is because..." I guess I'm just tired of feminists (individuals, not organizations) citing wage gap statistics as proof of sexism and how misinformed the public seems to be because these feminist groups cite these statistics without properly explaining the reasons behind them.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are 0Reply
@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

I didn't say they all have children to take of, I said they're more likely to have to take care of children. And that is most definitely true.

You're now getting into the issue of gender roles, where I'm more likely to take your side. However, the sexism apparent in gender roles doesn't detract from my argument that women's lower wages aren't a direct result of discrimination. Maybe a large part of the wage gap (in America =P) can be attributed to the child-raising role they're supposed to fill, but that doesn't mean that employers are intentionally giving women less pay, as some feminist groups seem to want the public to believe.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are -1Reply
@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

I know it's not that powerful, but affirmative action does mean if a man and a woman are equally qualified, the woman will normally get the job, so two of Renee's claims don't make sense.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are -3Reply
@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

There's more men employed than women because many women choose to stay at home and take care of their children.

As for your second point, I can quite honestly say I've never noticed this. All the statistics and whatnot are about people without jobs, not men without jobs.

Affirmative action isn't as powerful for women as it is for racial minorities, but it still exists.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are -3Reply
@Hey guess what OP, I've read that before. We covered it in a college class. It's all BS. A couple of problems...

1.) I'd like a reference to these experiments. Due to affirmative action, the opposite is normally true.

2.) They're talking about hours worked in full-time positions. Men, on average, are more likely to work overtime and on weekends.

3.) Again, because of affirmative action, women can obtain professional positions easier than men. Women have overall less experience than men because they either take long leaves of absences or become stay-at-home mothers when they have their children.

4.) That's more of a social construct issue than a wage issue. If a woman is unreliable because she constantly has to leave work to take care of her children, she's less valuable to the company and it is therefore understandable if she receives a smaller salary.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are -4Reply

I'm going to read this over the next few days. So far, I don't see how feminist organizations have done anything to ensure the existence of wage gaps.

@Monopolygamy I'm going to read this over the next few days. So far, I don't see how feminist organizations have done anything to...

Oh. That changes things a little bit..still, I don't quite believe a feminist organization would make an absolute statement like that.

@Monopolygamy I'm going to read this over the next few days. So far, I don't see how feminist organizations have done anything to...

Well, I guess they don't actually make that claim... but I do believe that's what they want people to believe because I constantly hear them cite wage gap statistics and blame it on gender discrimination without listing any other possible causes.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are 0Reply
@Monopolygamy I'm going to read this over the next few days. So far, I don't see how feminist organizations have done anything to...

When I said "left untouched," I meant they don't analyze any of the reasons behind the wage gap and instead claim it exists solely because of gender discrimination.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are -1Reply
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@1762199

You're right, thanks. Fixed it above.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are +1Reply
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@1762203

Haha, don't worry, I didn't expect anyone to read the whole thing, especially if they're not passionate about the "issue."

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are +2Reply

In America anyway.
That article doesn't look at any other country.

@ashbashcrashed In America anyway. That article doesn't look at any other country.

But the problems exists in other countries which have all of the same problems, and when they talk about these things they're not talking about America. It's not a debate 'solely concerning America'. If the OP just wanted to talk about America, then they should have specified which country it was about.

@ashbashcrashed In America anyway. That article doesn't look at any other country.

Holy fuck, "America is the only country in the world" syndrome or what.
I wasn't saying America isn't a big old country filled with a lot of feminist organisations. I was merely pointing out the fact that the way this post is phrased makes me think it is a general statement which applies to more than one fucking country, no matter how big it is and how conceited some of its people are.

Yeah, yeah, because you know what, no other country has these debates. Those terms you mentioned earlier apply ONLY to America because it's a large country.

I remember clearly stating that the link only focused on America. That was my whole point. I was just pointing out, that with a general statement such as this one, it'd be nice for people to talk about one of the one hundred and ninety something countries that never get included in these debates. Alternatively, maybe the OP should have just specified it was just about America. Like every other issue on here seems to be.

I'd just like to clarify: I have nothing against America. I'm just sick and tired of people on here treating it as though it's the only place that ever matters.

@ashbashcrashed In America anyway. That article doesn't look at any other country.

Speaking as someone not from America, I can assure you that working class, wage gap and glass ceiling are also used in my country, and I'm fairly sure plenty of other countries too.

There's this thing where those words and that debate are NOT 'solely concerning America'.

The debate is global (and global means the rest of the world that isn't America) so get over it, and stop trying to pretend this post hints that it's just about America. The only clue that this was only about America was the OP's evidence, and that wasn't included in the post. Nowhere in the post does it say "in America". So, my point, that the OP should either change the post to be just about America if that's what was intended, or to include evidence from other countries having the same debate remains valid.

Your argument about 'most feminist organisations being American' doesn't really matter. The post doesn't say the majority. It just seems to say all feminist organisations do it.

Also, in which countries is it illegal to have feminist organisations?

@ashbashcrashed In America anyway. That article doesn't look at any other country.

generally when people reference the wage gap, the working poor, the glass ceiling, or any of these things it is a debate solely concerning America.

Pedo_Cats avatar Pedo_Cat Yeah You Are +2Reply
@ashbashcrashed In America anyway. That article doesn't look at any other country.

the OP mentioned feminist organizations, the majority of which exist in the United States. Feminist organizations are illegal in the countries that need them most, so the implied existence of them means that the OP was referencing the first world, and probably America. Also the link our OP gave us talks about the US department of labor.

Pedo_Cats avatar Pedo_Cat Yeah You Are 0Reply
@ashbashcrashed In America anyway. That article doesn't look at any other country.

I never said Amuuuurica is the only country that matters, I was merely pointing out how the OP used subtle references that imply that he was indeed talking about America.

Pedo_Cats avatar Pedo_Cat Yeah You Are 0Reply

I think it's mostly because women cost more to insure because of potential pregnancy and other health reasons

Before any comes here commenting that I'm a sexist pig encouraging discrimination and criticizing those attempting to achieve equality for women, I challenge you to read this article: http://www.consad.com/content/r...l%20Report.pdf

I doubt anyone will read the whole thing, but if you care enough about this "issue" to make some angry comment on this post, you should at least understand the basic points outlined in that article.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are -3Reply
@YeahIAm Before any comes here commenting that I'm a sexist pig encouraging discrimination and criticizing those attempting...

I was completely prepared to read it even though I don't care too much (yet, anyways, I'm sure it'll be different when I begin a legitimate career), just to be informed. Then I saw 95 pages and decided not to. ):

@YeahIAm Before any comes here commenting that I'm a sexist pig encouraging discrimination and criticizing those attempting...

hey so I didnt read the whole thing obviously (just the forward) while its convincing there seems to me to be some pretty glaring ommissions. I did some research (ie googling) here is just one example: First of all, there are important kinds of direct employer discrimination which CONSAD’s methods cannot measure or disprove. For example, some employers are more likely to hire women to lower-paid positions and men to higher-paid positions. (Empirical testing – by sending male and female testers to apply for the same jobs — has proven that this sort of sexist occupational sorting sometimes happens.)

This sort of occupational segregation leads to women’s average work experience not being as good as men’s — which CONSAD’s methodology would classify as an “explained” difference in wage gap that has nothing to do with discrimination. It would be more accurate to conclude that the differences in women’s and men’s resumes may be partly caused by employer discrimination, and CONSAD’s methods cannot account for this.

There are more failings as well: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/20...-measuring-it/

Anonymous +3Reply
@YeahIAm Before any comes here commenting that I'm a sexist pig encouraging discrimination and criticizing those attempting...

re above link: The article cites about 15 reputable gender wage gap studies that would be imcompatable with your given link. Ok and this is irrelevant really but I went on their website (the research organizations) and couldnt find any female names on their top execs list :)

Anonymous +1Reply
@YeahIAm Before any comes here commenting that I'm a sexist pig encouraging discrimination and criticizing those attempting...

Completely understood. It was a challenge for an angry poster, not something I expected anyone to do. You can just read the 2-page foreword by the U.S. Department of Labor if you want, though.

YeahIAms avatar YeahIAm Yeah You Are -2Reply
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