If abortion were illegal, then women attempting home abortions would be persecuted. But to what extent can we persecute them? How will we know if it was a home-abortion or an accident? Are we going to jail a pregnant lady (who may not even know she's pregnant) when she takes pills? Drinks? Heavy-lifts? Falls down stairs? Women may be jailed if she causes a miscarriage, because it'd be nearly impossible to prove it was an accident. This is a serious infringement on human rights , amirite?

Many women will be imprisoned without proof. And it's not even that, but more of how much of our freedoms will get restricted. If someone's pregnant, they have to live in constant fear that if she gets a miscarriage, she's in deep legal trouble. If she has a drink, she can get arrested for it. If she falls down stairs, she can get arrested. I still stand by the fact that it's next to impossible to prove whether or not it was an attempted abortion. I've posted several real life examples, so this isn't something I came up with. People are getting arrested for having miscarriages. People are getting denied cancer treatment because it has a slim chance of harming the fetus. We're living in a time where all women are is a fetal incubator. Put the precious fetus at any sort of risk, and we'll put you in jail.

You seem to miss the fact that there are instances in real life where this has happened. And whether or not she actually did intend abortion, it doesn't matter. The point is the government has really no means of knowing for sure. This isn't something you can have solid proof on, which is why it's hard to convict.

"The charges against Taylor were dropped ultimately but not because this is a draconian, hateful, anti-woman, anti-family piece of legislation that harms women and families. They were dropped because Taylor's doctor confirmed that she was in her second trimester at the time of her fall, not the "criminal" third trimester."

They weren't dropped because they realized it was stupid, it was dropped because it wasn't in the 3rd trimester. Had it been, she would've been charged. So clearly, the point stands.

How do you PROVE that a woman's intentions were malicious? How do you know that they were intentional? A woman got arrested for falling down the stairs. Tell me how we can distinctly tell whether she was doing it on purpose or as an accident? How do you prove something like that?

I disagreed with what you were saying in that specific comment, I'm sorry that you take offense.

There are other cases where giving birth to a stillborn baby resulted in arrest. Trimester was not specified, but I just think this whole thing is ridiculous. You shouldn't live in fear of being tried for a miscarriage. Pro-life people are really set on persecuting people who damage a fetus, and signs are showing. Sure, the charges were dropped, but it's ridiculous something like this is even considered in the first place, to be charged for having a miscarriage. Coming from my own opinion, "fetal homicide" by the mother is not a crime. That's where my argument comes from.

Yeah, I deleted the comment after I found that information out. I still don't think she should have been arrested. She had to go through trauma of suicide, miscarriage, and now jail time because she failed her suicide attempt. I can't help thinking women would be more likely to take stronger methods in suicide so they don't survive and deal with this.

Obviously not. She wasn't trying to have an abortion is what I'm getting at.

There are probably very few cases where the miscarriage was an accident but she was put in jail. The point is she was accused of committing a crime because she miscarried. That fact in itself is ridiculous.

It's not that it isn't cruel or inhumane. It's just that I think a person's body is their own property. A person can cruelly and inhumanely maim themselves all they want, and I won't object. I think as soon as the baby's viable outside the womb it's easier to induce the birth rather than abort, but that may cause the baby to have lifelong damages. Doctors should encourage the mother to give birth when it's viable, but in the end the decision's in her hands.

Can a baby make decisions regarding their body?

And I thought you were pro-choice. What would you say in response of your own pro-life argument?

I still love seeing J_A_C_K post. It's like observing a drunk toddler.

http://amirite.net/727303/1751238
A drunk toddler who absolutely kicked your ass the one time I ever talked to you.

was exactly what I was going to say, she would have to be proved to have intentionally killed the child for her to be convicted.

Fixed. Of course most of them aren't questioned. These only happen when there are strict-anti abortion laws. She didn't cause the death of her baby on purpose, she was trying to commit suicide. Trying to kill herself, not trying to get an abortion.

Getting proof someone killed their baby is easy. Getting proof that it was intentional, is not. You can fall down the stairs by accident, or you can do it because you want an abortion. There's no way to have solid facts to distinguish the two, unless maybe she explicitly said she did this on purpose.

Once again, you seem to be missing the point where I said someone HAS been arrested for falling down the stairs. I didn't make this up.

First case. Purpose wasn't trying to kill her baby specifically, was arrested, persecuted, and put in jail.

Was going to respond. Then saw this wall of text and decided that what I was going to say had probably already been said.

Hey @spareseconds! It's been a few days.

I'd just like to throw my change into the pot.

I agree with Catalyst and Pieman about the courts. In a judicial setting that follows the laws and statutes set in America the burden of proof rests on the prosecution, not the defense.

In the case of the falling lady, it seems to me as if she broke the law several times. Suicide is illegal and apparently so is late-term abortion where she lived. Whether or not it was part of a suicide attempt, she knowingly and willingly tried to kill the baby. Assuming it can be proved that it was intentional, those are perfect grounds for jail time.

And I think it's ironic how you called a ban on killing unborn babies anti-family. And just out of curiosity, do you support New York's soda ban? Because I found it odd that most textbook liberals will justify abortion on the grounds that "it's her body and she has the right to do what she wants with it," but when it comes to sugar, fat, and sodium, the rules change. Just an observation I had.

I actually first thought of you as a women: I was going to say Mrs. Pie but changed my mind

I just don't think it's a crime.

And my opinion is the law would be best gotten rid of, and never attempted to be brought back.

^This.

"She had to go through trauma of suicide, miscarriage, and now jail time because she failed her suicide attempt."

Out of all the nonsense, spewing out of sparesecond's mouth, I'm pretty sure this was the worst.

1. Yes she did go through the trauma of suicide. Lots of people go through trauma, yet that doesn't mean they can get away with murder. Feeling pity for someone's terrible life is not a reason to excuse them of murder.
2. Going through the miscarriage obviously wasn't very traumatic for her. Clearly, she didn't give a shit if the kid died.
3. She's not going to jail for her failed suicide, she's going to jail for the planned murder of her baby.

"She didn't cause the death of her baby on purpose, she was trying to commit suicide. Trying to kill herself, not trying to get an abortion."

She specifically stated in her suicide note that she intended to kill herself and the kid.

Pretty much, your dumb.

Also, I can't believe this post is positive.

That one case.

generally things like witness testimony, suspect demeanor, and the method by which the child was killed. as you have stated though it would be difficult to prove intent so a lot of women would get off of the murder charge they should receive. but it would be better than allowing abortion to be legal. although you seem to be for some reason under the impression that since it's difficult to prove that they intentionally killed the child means that many women would be imprisoned without proof, but that is not how it works. as PocketPie said because people (in the U.S. at least) are innocent until proven guilty, the problem would be women getting away with killing their babies intentionally rather than them being imprisoned for an accident.

they can't be convicted without enough proof, it would be illegal for the judge to do so. if a judge were to sentence someone with insufficient then they are at risk of losing there job and facing legal action themselves. miscarriages happen all the time, the only reason someone would come under investigation would be if someone was suspicious of how it happened. it has nothing to do with women being a "fetal incubator" it is about protecting a child from harm.

I seriously hope you never have children because if you view your own life as being more important than your child's then you would be one horrible parent.

Apparently links don't work.

Denied Cancer treatment: http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/25/w...een/index.html

Arrested for falling down stairs: http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/b...ll-down-stairs

Testing someone to see if "it was intentional" is undoubtedly going to lead to copious amounts of inaccuracy. A woman tells you she didn't do it on purpose, how do you go about convicting her because you believe she did?

No, it's obvious she did something to kill the fetus. But it's not obvious whether or not she did it to get an abortion, or if it was an accident.