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Scotland will be making a big mistake if they vote YES for independence in 2014. All the romantic nonsense spouted by Salmond and his cronies serves a single purpose - to allow Salmond to fulfil his selfish dream of finally being a real Prime Minister. He would sell his own country down the river to do it. Scotland must vote NO. They cannot survive without England. amirite?

24%Yeah You Are76%No Way
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@1854252

What do you base any of that on? Most people want independence? Economically sound? Doing what? Their arguments are nothing more than romantic conjecture. Look at how the world operates now -- greater union is the path to greater prosperity. Dividing this nation in this foolish and reckless way will be damaging to Scotland and its people.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are -1Reply
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@1854419

I love the way you make these bold statements about Scotland to try and argue against me, and then add that you in fact know nothing about it. Let me tell you something about it - without England, Scotland will flounder. If they could've truly managed alone with England, they could have been independent long ago. And being too into the EU is too rich for them. They'll end up like Greece, unable to keep up and then dragged into Europe's abyss of Debt, which England has skilfully kept the nation out of

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are -4Reply
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@1854431

Here are some things you should know: First, England has already devolved significant powers to Scotland, as a way to let them run their own affairs, but continue to benefit from the financial, military and political power of the UK. This move for independence now will rob the Scottish people of that support. Blind nationalism is in Salmond's eyes, not mine. Secondly, how does dividing the nation create a better situation for people? Fanciful nonsense! Greater unity is the BEST way to secure a more prosperous future for EVERYONE. Thirdly, dropping the dead-weight of Scotland would actually prove fruitful for England. Not having to deal with their healthcare alone would save us billions each year. So don't try and get across that I'm some kind of Imperialist not willing to let go of a colony. As you aptly pointed out, Scotland is NOT a colony. They are a country, part of a great NATION, and they are being led astray by nationalist idiots who just want to wave flags and call themselves government leaders.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are +1Reply
@1854431

Do you even know what "English" policy in Scotland is? I doubt you'd be saying any of these things if you did. And no, there is no extreme nationalism, just extreme rationalism, something the scottish people were known for, before Salmond brainwashed them with his fanciful crap about Scottish independence.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are -2Reply
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@1854437

Therein lies your ignorance - if the Scottish don't like policies in Scotland, then they are the current policies laid down by the scottish legislature. London passes few laws over Scotland these days already. But then again, you didn't know any of that did you?

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are -2Reply
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@1854451

Wow, the ignorance continues. Scotland DOESN'T follow English law, they follow Scottish law. And the things the Scottish people will lose are hidden from them by the nationalists. The people are not being fully informed of what's at stake. For example, Scottish servicemen and women will lose their careers, scottish workers within the UK will be classed as foreigners and lose their social benefits and status, their passport will be worth less, and their foreign ministry more powerless to help citizens in trouble. Nationalists love to paint this picture of a cruel Imperialist England dominating them. The truth is very different. A benevolent and tolerant goverment in London that has allowed them every scrap of independence while giving them ALL the benefit. Salmond's move now is for personal power, not for the benefit of the Scottish people. He's a rat and a deceiver!

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are -2Reply
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@1854479

You see, you really just don't get it. You still think that this is about the English trying to maintain control. We already GAVE control of the country to the Scottish people. When I'm talking about "passing laws", i mean FEW, and nothing like you'd think. I'm talking about enabling legislation like gay marriage, a kind of macro-style law, which the scots still have a say in, and can choose to change in their country if they want. You need to read about the UK, man, you really know nothing about it works.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are -1Reply
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@1854489

You've really missed the point of my post and my critique of your arguments haven't you? Allow me to sum them up more clearly for you:

1) The post is a message TO that effect. To state that it's my opinion that the scots need to be well-informed on the reality of independence. And that Salmond is concealing it from them for his own personal gain

2) I'm criticising you for making so many ignorant statements, and regarding my views as illogical when you have absolutely NO factual or experience basis for your own.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are -1Reply
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@1854495

Salmond IS a liar, deceiver and power-hungry. And he WILL sacrifice the security of Scotland to gain a political position. And of course I'm anti-independence. But I am so out of genuine concern for Scotland and its people, whom I love dearly. They are being led astray, and "what they want" as you put it is frankly unattainable. They're just led to believe it is with romantic nationalist crap.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are 0Reply
@1854495

The differences between what you saw in Braveheart and now are numerous and significant. We're not talking about a colonized people struggling for independence from an evil overlord. We are talking about dangerous nationalism threatening to destabalise a country and damage the lives of many of its people.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are 0Reply
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@1854508

Really? Wow you walked into this one. The majority of Germany also voted for Hitler. Good idea? How could so many people be fooled? Erm...Hitler? Stalin? Kim Il Sung? Mao Zedong? Khmer Rouge? Ho Chi Minh? How did any of these people get so much initial support? By duping the population. Now before you shoot off on a "scotland won't go that way" rant. What I'm saying is that MY concern is based on Salmond's transparent power-grabbing tactics, during a time when Scotland already has independence in its own affairs, while at the same time being an EQUAL partner in a greater nation. You still seem to be harboring under the delusion that Scotland is somehow subservient to England.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are +2Reply
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@1854511

Once again you miss the point entirely. The people of Scotland ARE being lied to and misled about the consequences of independence. Salmond is a crank and is basing his drive for independence on entirely personal reasoning. He twists facts, and outright lies about what independence would mean for Scotland, and people listen. It's unnerving. He would gladly ignore all opposition in Scotland (of which there is much I might add) in order to satisfy his own personal desires for power. The UK strongly believes in self-determination --- it's the main reason we don't negotiate with Argentina over the Falklands. Through this post I merely voice my concern for the people of Scotland, and implore them to see reason. However, I was afraid that some ignorant people would crawl from the woodwork and attempt to denounce me as an imperialist or something ;-)

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are -1Reply
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@1854547

...what's not to understand. I'm clearly opposed to it, so of course I'm saying they should vote NO. What I'm saying too is, that there really is NO real case for a YES campaign, as I have outlined already. And furthermore, Salmond is pushing a foolhardy YES campaign by playing on the romantic sentiments of people, which is dangerous. All these things are connected, can' t you see? Of course the referendum needs to take place, but the vote MUST BE a no. I am expressing my hopes that the scottish will not allow themselves to continue to be led astray by fools like Salmond. Being led that way is not an affront to their intelligence. Just as the genius Germans were led astraty in 1933. Anyway look, as much as I always enjoy debate - it's hard to really debate this with you if you don't know enough about it. It's frustrating for me to tell you most of these things which are objectively true, like the facts on English/Scottlish law, devolution etc (which you are evidently unaware of), when you just retort with conjecture and guesswork.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are +2Reply
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@1854727

Why do you treat everything I say as some kind of objective statement of fact? have you ever been in a debate before? You know this is all what I think, right? "I'm saying there's no case for a YES" is my opinion, much as the opposition would think vice versa. What aren't you getting about this?

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are 0Reply
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@1855163

First of all, the debate is with you, not Salmond. Secondly, I told you it's hard to debate with you since you on this since you admitted yourself you don't know anything about the issue --- this was not a jibe at your intelligence, and if you think it was then yes you are being overly sensitive. Third, the point of passionate debate is to destroy the other perspective. It is my opinion that the opposite side of the argument is nothing but romantic, fanciful rhetoric, something I have made quite clear I might add. Therefore, I argue vehemently against it. My unionist opinions are strong, much as say, a Chinese persons on keeping Tibet within China are strong. Finally, how is my opinion here not debatable. I say that Scotland must vote no. The motion is "Scotland must say no" - how is this not a debate-like topic? I also hold that if the post is still left on here, that it must also have been deemed officially debatable opinion by amirite, since it wasn't removed by a mod.

TommyUK1234s avatar TommyUK1234 Yeah You Are 0Reply

Scottish people think they are the richest country in the UK, and when they leave they'll get all the gas and oil that would naturally fall in Scottish territory, but they're wrong. The UK will get almost all the "Scottish" oil, because it was discovered when Scotland was part of the UK. Considering how much Scotland likes government assistance, like free prescriptions and uni educations, this will be way too heavy a blow for them.

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