+5

If a person is useless, an idiot, a coward, etc. then there's nothing wrong with telling them that. They deserve to know what people think of them, even if it really hurts their feelings. It doesn't have to be done cruelly, but it should be done.

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Watchful_questioneers avatar Life
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Is this a joke?

VicZincs avatar VicZinc Disagree 0Reply
@VicZinc Is this a joke?

Oh, I forgot to add- only if the trait is something they can improve about themselves- otherwise, there's no point in making a big deal about it

@Watchful_questioneer Oh, I forgot to add- only if the trait is something they can improve about themselves- otherwise, there's no point...

what's a way to phrase things so it isn't done cruelly?

obviously, one way is not to do it while there are people there to witness but what else?

@fuzala what's a way to phrase things so it isn't done cruelly? obviously, one way is not to do it while there are people...

Yeah, definitely in private.
Well, obviously there's no way to do it without hurting their feelings, but just avoiding doing it around other people, mostly. And don't sugarcoat it, or the opposite.

In addition, it shouldn't be told to them at a time when they're already really sad, or really happy

@Watchful_questioneer Yeah, definitely in private. Well, obviously there's no way to do it without hurting their feelings, but just...

it seems to me that doing so can make a person really defiant

saying someone is an idiot or useless as a person doesn't sound like a good idea to me
I'm just not seeing how this can be helpful

I mean I could point out that an action they have taken was senseless, but saying that they are idiots seems mean

I also think constructive criticism works better in a burger formation
the buns are supposed to be positive things
and then the middle can be something negative

so start of with the good
go into the bad
and end off on a good note again

like
good: I can see why you did what you did
bad: but it had these negative effects
good:I know that you're better than that

@fuzala it seems to me that doing so can make a person really defiant saying someone is an idiot or useless as a person...

That's a really good point. I guess the post is a little off-key then. They should know that they do some "undesirable things", or such, but they shouldn't think that they are useless or stupid because it seems very final and immovable

@Watchful_questioneer That's a really good point. I guess the post is a little off-key then. They should know that they do some...

Or at least they shouldn't be told they are because not all people will respond well to it. Everyone has their own way of receiving criticism, but the important thing is that nobody is left completely ignorant of ever having done wrong

Except it's kinda mean and even if you try to say it nicely it'll still make them feel badly about themselves.You know, I truly don't know anybody who's cruel enough to say stuff like this.

@PuDdInGKup Except it's kinda mean and even if you try to say it nicely it'll still make them feel badly about themselves.You...

I am constantly afraid of the things I do not know, especially about myself. I practically beg people to criticize me (seriously, feel free to do that right now if you're reading this), it's the fastest path of self improvement, for me anyway.

Does it make me feel temperately bad about myself, possibly even throwing me into a bout of self hatred and despair? Yes.

But once I have climbed that mountain of self improvement and become the thing that some ass thought I couldn't be, a better worker or student, the more desirable version of myself that a loved one wants and/or just a better version of myself for me, I feel happy. This happiness outweighs the pain of the past and improves my life in a noticeable way.

Even if I can't improve the thing they're criticizing me for but it's an issue I can at the very least be more self aware.

Lens avatar Len Agree +2Reply
@Len I am constantly afraid of the things I do not know, especially about myself. I practically beg people to criticize...

Yes, I see why it would be reasonable for somebody to be honest and tell others about their flaws if they ask, but Watchful_questioneer is talking about just telling them straight-up "you're annoying" or "you're stupid" without them asking for constructive criticism or anything. It just doesn't seem right.

@PuDdInGKup Yes, I see why it would be reasonable for somebody to be honest and tell others about their flaws if they ask, but...

Even so, I can think about it in context and improve myself.

For example, lets say I'm in a university level math class and I start getting excessively loud with my friends, someone across the room yells, "shut the fuck up, you're annoying".
I can see that I was obviously being obnoxious in some way, perhaps it was the volume I was reaching or the content of what I was yelling. I can then know not to be so loud or perhaps be more considerate with the things that I say when I reach such a loathsome volume, if for some reason it is necessary.

Perhaps it's the "back in the good ol' days" idea I've gotten from my grandfather but I feel like if there was more criticism in the world we'd all have thicker skin, be more understanding, be better with communication and I feel most importantly, be better people.

Lens avatar Len Agree +1Reply
@Len Even so, I can think about it in context and improve myself. For example, lets say I'm in a university level math...

"If a person is useless, an idiot, a coward, etc. then there's nothing wrong with telling them that." There is NO reason you should call somebody any of those things, even if you think they need improvement. Especially that word "useless". You do NOT call people useless.

@PuDdInGKup "If a person is useless, an idiot, a coward, etc. then there's nothing wrong with telling them that." There is NO...

Why not?

Sure, there's more delicate ways of putting things but it's understandable that if someone's frustrated or honestly just too lazy to deal with someone else they'd simply be slanderous.

Lens avatar Len Agree +1Reply
@Len Why not? Sure, there's more delicate ways of putting things but it's understandable that if someone's frustrated...

This is seriously hopeless... Calling people useless? That's makes people freaking DEPRESSED. Not only that, but you have no idea what they're dealing with in life. Maybe the only other living person in their household has cancer? Calling them useless really doesn't help them and they'll start harming themselves. It just isn't right to say things like that before you know what they live through.

@PuDdInGKup This is seriously hopeless... Calling people useless? That's makes people freaking DEPRESSED. Not only that, but...

I'd like to point out that you called this situation hopeless which would imply that I'm hopeless in understanding this then you go on to say that it's wrong to call other people hopeless which is somewhat hypocritical, I think. Regardless, I do have thick skin so I don't mind at all.

Perhaps someone is having a rough time in life but there's generally a reason others are putting others down. Normally there's improvements to be made and a person who is unaware of them is unable to actively fix those issues if they're unaware of them.
If the person's life is ruined by the insults; in a "straw that broke the camel's back" fashion, do you really intend to blame the people who insulted them for doing something poorly so heavily?

I also think I'm not explaining my position well enough, not to say a disconnect on your end but simply a lack of information from my end.
I do have an issue with something like, if I may use another needlessly long example, a group of belligerent people insulting someone they have no issue with simply for fun or to bolster their own ego.
Although I'd imagine that doesn't change much.

Lens avatar Len Agree 0Reply
@Len I'd like to point out that you called this situation hopeless which would imply that I'm hopeless in understanding...

That's not quite what I meant with the "hopeless" thing but okay.
I honestly don't understand how calling somebody "useless" would help them improve themselves at all. Would you be able to give me any sort of example of where this would help anyone?

@PuDdInGKup That's not quite what I meant with the "hopeless" thing but okay. I honestly don't understand how calling somebody...

I know, I just thought it was a bit ironic.

Fuzula made me notice I'm not thinking of other people but rather in this "oh wouldn't it be nice" sort of way.

A man on the street walks up to me and says my hair looks fucking retarded. I look in a nearby window and consider, "What's wrong with my hair?" Sometimes my hair gets really screwed up by wind, so I may notice that some of my hair is flopping around in all the wrong ways and I'd put up my hood. Thereby avoiding the embarrassment of my rebellious hair when I meet up with my friends.
Or perhaps my hair is just absurd to him due to the length, either way it allowed me to reflect on myself and be more aware of how people perceive me which I see as very positive.
So I took a very negative thing and simply flipped it into being a fantastic thing that I enjoyed thoroughly.

Fuzula pointed that this isn't how other people operate though, she's right.
It's not effective for everyone.

So I definitely have to back-peddle to "It's best that we all be constructive in our criticism and attempt to be as considerate as possible."

Begrudgingly so, but still.

Lens avatar Len Agree 0Reply
@Len Even so, I can think about it in context and improve myself. For example, lets say I'm in a university level math...

I get what you're saying about thicker skin
but I think that it's important to teach people to be considerate

you being loud wasn't considerate
but that hypothetical person's words weren't either

it's the whole two wrongs don't solve things
you took the words well
but someone else might say "them's fightin' words"

it depends on how each individual reacts

people are gonna blow up over stupid things sometimes
and others are gonna react stupidly

even if one person stays reasonable
things happen

calling someone an idiot, in most cases, can lead to more harm than good

as opposed to reasoning with someone
which can mean the opposite

if someone has an issue they're unaware of
wouldn't it be more beneficial to talk to them reasonably than to say "stop doing that ya idiot"?

that person is more likely to learn that way

you, Len, would learn either way
but I don't think most can say the same

@PuDdInGKup Yes, I see why it would be reasonable for somebody to be honest and tell others about their flaws if they ask, but...

By saying "telling them that", I'd meant that the point has to be gotten across that said attribute is however prominent it is. I don't believe in sugarcoating it, because that can be deceiving to people and make them think less of the issue. If they can't handle the full degree of seriousness of the situation (which doesn't need to be bomb-dropped- it should be delivered however slowly it needs to be for the person to not be overwhelmed, even if that means over the course of days), then shame on them for being in such denial.

There are people who could handle it well, and others that couldn't. However, people should definitely know how bad the problem really is. Like I said- it doesn't have to be cruel (which may be a somewhat flexible term depending on the person being informed). It's possible to convey the severity of the issue gently, without sugarcoating it.

"telling them that" can be a process that can take as long as it needs to prevent them from being overwhelmed.

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