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you got something wrong
they're still washing their hands

and if they're wearing disposables sleeves
I don't see a problem

just change them between each patient
it's really not that difficult

and where do you get off saying it's a sexist value?
the dress of men and women is different everywhere

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +5Reply
@fuzala you got something wrong they're still washing their hands and if they're wearing disposables sleeves I don't see...

Exactly. "My worry is that allowing some medics to use disposable sleeves you compromise patient safety because unless you change the sleeves between each patient, you spread bacteria." Well, if doctors are expected to wash their hands between each patient and change their gloves between each patient, I'm sure they'll be required to change their disposable sleeves.

@Frank_n_Furter Exactly. "My worry is that allowing some medics to use disposable sleeves you compromise patient safety because...

yup

a lot of articles blow things out of proportion
and make a big deal out of nothing

I don't know what their agenda is
but it sucks that people read this stuff and accept it without questioning the information and the logic behind it

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +4Reply
@fuzala you got something wrong they're still washing their hands and if they're wearing disposables sleeves I don't see...

"From now on, Muslim female staff will not need to wash their hands before procedures as it compromises their modesty." They are not still washing their hands. And the sleeves are still less sanitary than washing and scrubbing, whether they're changed between patients or not. The principle of this is what bothers me more than anything. Changing the rules of a profession because they conflict with someone's beliefs. That isn't right.
Of course the dress for men and women is different everywhere. I've heard many reasons for Muslim women covering themselves, all of them sexist. Perhaps my information is inaccurate, so would you like to tell me a non-sexist reason for Muslim women covering themselves?

AtheisticMystics avatar AtheisticMystic Yeah You Are -2Reply
@AtheisticMystic "From now on, Muslim female staff will not need to wash their hands before procedures as it compromises their...

what?
I just read the article over
and I did
Ctrl+F "hand"
Ctrl+F "wash"

and the word "hand" shows up nowhere in the article
the word "wash" doesn't show up in the article

scrub your hands
scrub your arms
then put on the disposables
very hygienic
no big deal

sexist means one gender is superior to the other
but that is not the case

there is an obvious distinction between men and women
the genders are different but equal

how is having different amounts of required coverage sexist?

women cover themselves for modesty
men cover themselves for modesty

but the coverage is different

let's use a more extreme example

if man runs topless on beach
no problem

if woman runs topless on beach
big problem

"oh but women have breasts"

fine
man with moobs runs topless on beach
no problem

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +5Reply

OP - did you even read the article?

@VicZinc OP - did you even read the article?

Yes, yes I did. Why do you ask?

AtheisticMystics avatar AtheisticMystic Yeah You Are -1Reply
@AtheisticMystic Yes, yes I did. Why do you ask?

because what you're saying in the comments doesn't match the article

the article says nothing about washing your hands
the word hands isn't even in the article

washing your hands is not against Islam
that's ridiculous

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +5Reply
@fuzala because what you're saying in the comments doesn't match the article the article says nothing about washing your...

I haven't read only this article, it just happens to be the one that I posted. I've read other articles on this topic and some of my information is from them.
Of course washing your hands isn't against Islam. The issue that these nurses have is exposing their hands/arms in order to wash them.

@AtheisticMystic I haven't read only this article, it just happens to be the one that I posted. I've read other articles on this...

I've been looking around and I've found that arms covered by long, sterile gloves are actually more safe than the patient coming into contact with the bare arms

not matter how clean a doctor's hands are
he is going to wear sterile gloves

so extending the length of gloves still doesn't seem like a problem

@fuzala I've been looking around and I've found that arms covered by long, sterile gloves are actually more safe than the...

My problem isn't with extending the length of gloves, it's that, according to what I've read, Sikh medical staff are exempt from washing their hands before a procedure. As I understand it, the sleeves are replacing hand-washing, not in addition to hand-washing.

@AtheisticMystic My problem isn't with extending the length of gloves, it's that, according to what I've read, Sikh medical staff...

I don't understand that

in order to put on the gloves
you have to expose your arms

so why not wash them while they are exposed

hmm smilie

Can you please get us a link to one of the articles that directly states that Muslim nurses are not washing their hands? Until then, I would very much appreciate to no longer hear that defenseless claim being made.

And what exactly about the procedure, the way it's done now, strikes you as unsanitary? Don't you think a hospital would place safety first?

U HECKA THIRSTY

Anonymous 0Reply
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@1921525

What's there not to understand? There's a person in dire need of beverage.

If you don't want to be treated by these doctors and nurses who wear disposable sleeves, then ask for a different health professional.
I support equality, and that includes accepting other people's religious beliefs.

@Altoid_Freak_250 If you don't want to be treated by these doctors and nurses who wear disposable sleeves, then ask for a different...

So if my religion is believes taxes are inherently immoral should I be required to pay them?

iamthewalruss avatar iamthewalrus Yeah You Are -3Reply
@iamthewalrus So if my religion is believes taxes are inherently immoral should I be required to pay them?

well you have to be reasonable about it

there are religions that call for canibalism
but that's not gonna fly everywhere

but in relation to this post
disposable sleeves are no problem

the article fails to mention that someone can scrub and put on differnent disposoable sleeves the way people put on disposable gloves

that's not infringing on anyone's rights or causing harm to the public

canibalism, on the other hand, does harm and infringe on rights

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +4Reply
@iamthewalrus So if my religion is believes taxes are inherently immoral should I be required to pay them?

Yes you should. Nowhere did I say in my comment that there aren't exceptions. As a citizen of a country under the government's care and protection you are obligated to pay taxes. This issue we are discussing in this post is completely unrelated. Stop trying to bring up extreme examples in order to cause me to cave on my opinion.

@Altoid_Freak_250 Yes you should. Nowhere did I say in my comment that there aren't exceptions. As a citizen of a country under the...

so where do you get to objectively draw the line on where someone's religious belief is justified? is it based on the popularity of the religion?

iamthewalruss avatar iamthewalrus Yeah You Are -2Reply
@iamthewalrus so where do you get to objectively draw the line on where someone's religious belief is justified? is it based on...

when it infringes on others' rights and causes harm to society

please tell me how wearing disposable sleeves does this

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +5Reply
@iamthewalrus so where do you get to objectively draw the line on where someone's religious belief is justified? is it based on...

No. When it begins to affect others negatively or causes another kind of unharmonious effect on our world. For example, your hypothetical taxes belief. We must pay taxes because we all use the same highways, public services, schools, etc. If you refuse to pay these taxes, logically, you should not be permitted to use these services, no matter what you believe. However, take a look at this issue with the sleeves. No one is hurt by this as long as the doctors and nurses and changing their sleeves and washing their hands! It is a personal belief and as long as they are complying with the health codes required by the facility (washing hands), there should be no problem at all. No one is affected.

@Altoid_Freak_250 No. When it begins to affect others negatively or causes another kind of unharmonious effect on our world. For...

so if I'm a recluse who lives in an isolated area, 100% self sufficient, should I have to pay taxes. Here's another example, I like to smoke marijuana to get closer to my God, is that allowed?

iamthewalruss avatar iamthewalrus Yeah You Are -2Reply
@iamthewalrus so where do you get to objectively draw the line on where someone's religious belief is justified? is it based on...

You can't refuse to pay taxes if you're using the services brought to you by them- you're being governed, protected by police officers, your kids are being educated- as long as you enjoy any of those, you have to pay taxes.

This user has deactivated their account.
@1921540

they're not skipping the hygiene rules
they're opting to wear disposable sleeves in addition to the disposable gloves

people can scrub their hands and arms and put on disposable gloves and sleeves to ensure coverage and be hygienic at the same
time

Butler says that bacteria will spread if the sleeves are not changed between patients
but changing yours sleeves in between patients can be done just like changing your gloves in between patients
so I don't know who he's trying to fool

also
there's more in the comments above

http://www.amirite.com/760996-a...etermining-the

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +4Reply

1. If you don't want to wash your hands, don't go into the medical profession.
2. Sacrificing patient health in favor of upholding sexist religious values is not okay.
If my religion prohibits me from using firearms, but I want to be a combat soldier, should the English army allow me to fight with a saber? No, the rules are the rules, they're in place for a reason, and everyone is subject to the rules, Muslim or otherwise. Correction, everyone should be subject to the rules, Muslim or otherwise. I'd refuse to be treated by a doctor or nurse that hadn't washed her hands.

AtheisticMystics avatar AtheisticMystic Yeah You Are -3Reply
@AtheisticMystic 1. If you don't want to wash your hands, don't go into the medical profession. 2. Sacrificing patient health in...

1) NOWHERE IN THE ARTICLE IS NOT WASHING HANDS BROUGHT UP.
2) Learn a little bit more about Islam before you make such ignorant remarks. The idea that women must cover themselves is not sexist (men must also cover up certain parts of their body); it is because Islam teaches people to be modest and humble.
3) Again, not washing hands remark is irrelevant. All doctors and nurses if they are wearing these sleeves should have to wash their hands in between patients and change their sleeves. If they do not, then you may have an argument in terms of health issues.

@Altoid_Freak_250 1) NOWHERE IN THE ARTICLE IS NOT WASHING HANDS BROUGHT UP. 2) Learn a little bit more about Islam before you make...

1. THIS ISN'T THE ONLY ARTICLE I'VE READ. OTHERS SAY THAT MUSLIM STAFF ARE EXEMPT FROM WASHING THEIR HANDS.
2. I don't really know what to say other than I disagree. Asking or demanding women to cover their bodies is sexist, in my opinion.
3. They do have to change their sleeves, but not wash their hands. The sleeves are not as sanitary as handwashing, therefore there is a definite health issue.

AtheisticMystics avatar AtheisticMystic Yeah You Are -2Reply
@AtheisticMystic 1. THIS ISN'T THE ONLY ARTICLE I'VE READ. OTHERS SAY THAT MUSLIM STAFF ARE EXEMPT FROM WASHING THEIR HANDS. 2. I...

1) Link to such an article? I can't find a single one that says that. As Mahfuza said, washing one's hands is not against Islam; that is ridiculous. Cleanliness (both physically and spiritually) are heavily emphasized in Islam. I can agree with you on that all medical professionals should have to wash their hands.
2) We can agree to disagree then. The followers of Islam do not view this as sexism.
3) I fear for the patients of anyone who went through years of medical training and does not realize the importance of hand washing. I was raised Muslim and my dad's a doctor, so I've had cleanliness drilled into my brain several ways. "Make wudu before you pray." "Don't you DARE touch that food if you haven't washed your hands." Anyway, yes, they should be required to wash their hands, and hopefully they already do so on a regular basis.

@Altoid_Freak_250 1) Link to such an article? I can't find a single one that says that. As Mahfuza said, washing one's hands is not...

"The UK Department of Health recently announced that it would loosen hygiene rules for Muslim and Sikh doctors and nurses. From now on, Muslim female staff will not need to wash their hands before procedures as it compromises their modesty. Instead, they will have the admittedly less sanitary option of wearing disposable plastic over-sleeves"
http://www.eutimes.net/2010/04/...their-modesty/

@AtheisticMystic "The UK Department of Health recently announced that it would loosen hygiene rules for Muslim and Sikh doctors and...

I still don't see how that is less sanitary

bare skin touching me <covered in sterile sleeves touching me

sterile sleeves win

and the Sikh women are pulling the jewelry above their elbows to accommodate for the regulations
don't see harm in that either

that article seems to have another agenda
and that's their issue with multiculturalism

seems like its chock full of propaganda

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +1Reply
@fuzala I still don't see how that is less sanitary bare skin touching me <covered in sterile sleeves touching...

Of course it is, and I don't necessarily agree with those parts of the article.
I don't know the science behind bare skin vs sleeves, but I have read that the sleeves are less sanitary, for whatever reason.

@AtheisticMystic 1. THIS ISN'T THE ONLY ARTICLE I'VE READ. OTHERS SAY THAT MUSLIM STAFF ARE EXEMPT FROM WASHING THEIR HANDS. 2. I...

Sexism isn't a different treatment of each gender. Males and females are treated differently in all cultures, it becomes sexism when one is viewed above the other, and having to cover parts of the body (which men have to do as well) in no way signifies inferiority or superiority, so that's why it doesn't seem sexist to me.

@Watchful_questioneer Sexism isn't a different treatment of each gender. Males and females are treated differently in all cultures, it...

Covering women's bodies to such an extreme degree does seem sexist to me. I suppose it's subjective.

@AtheisticMystic Covering women's bodies to such an extreme degree does seem sexist to me. I suppose it's subjective.

If it's seen as demeaning, I suppose it is, but I don't think it's because they're thought of as lower than men. The Muslim religion places a heavy emphasis on modesty, and covering the body is seen as a promotion of such, not as a degradation.

The reason men do not have the same practice is probably because of societal gender differences; men are less influenced by each others' physical appearance (generally), and that's a neutral characteristic, in my opinion. I see how you could see otherwise, though.

@AtheisticMystic 1. If you don't want to wash your hands, don't go into the medical profession. 2. Sacrificing patient health in...

This is the huge problem we are battling in our present day society. Every special interest group is demanding special and favoritism treatment. It has NOTHING to do with rights or liberty. The original immigrants who came here were required to assimilate and blend in with American ways and practices. The opposite is now true. They are demanding and dictating what should and should not be. And ultimately, it will be our undoing.
This is an example of blatant special treatment in recognition of a certain group of a people's religion.

@freespeechfreelancer This is the huge problem we are battling in our present day society. Every special interest group is demanding...

American is a melting pot

plus the original immigrants did not really assimilate to the ways and practices
they killed the people already living there
(remember the mass murders of the natives? )

I'm glad that is not the norm now
and that people can bring their culture and mix it into the pot

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +4Reply
@freespeechfreelancer This is the huge problem we are battling in our present day society. Every special interest group is demanding...

I don't like the calling out of immigrants, because as OP has pointed out in the past, Christians often do this as well

iamthewalruss avatar iamthewalrus Yeah You Are 0Reply
@AtheisticMystic 1. If you don't want to wash your hands, don't go into the medical profession. 2. Sacrificing patient health in...

Here is one for you as well to show that black people still see color and are as (if not more) racist than any other group (especially whites) that they would attack. As much as we all want a perfect world where everything is just right, it will never happen in our lifetime.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories...-stick-figure/

@freespeechfreelancer Here is one for you as well to show that black people still see color and are as (if not more) racist than any...

well one council person said this
that doesn't mean black people in general react like this

racist means to think one race is superior to that of another race

being offended by something does not mean one is racist

need I remind you that the KKK still exists in America
and that there are white supremacists around

that doesn't mean whites in general are racist
just that those groups are

you can't generalize about entire groups of people like that just by seeing examples from articles here and there

got a huge observation bias going around here

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +7Reply
@freespeechfreelancer Here is one for you as well to show that black people still see color and are as (if not more) racist than any...

read some stuff on this. The idea of "black equals bad" is still absurdly prominent both in the english language and in society at large. It's something people really should be educated on. Plus the points Fuzala made are really good.

iamthewalruss avatar iamthewalrus Yeah You Are +3Reply
@iamthewalrus read some stuff on this. The idea of "black equals bad" is still absurdly prominent both in the english language...

So how can black equal bad WHEN, blacks dominate such athletic sports like (football, basketball) [did not research this so shooting from the cuff], dominate and ARE hip/hop and rap music, have a clear and strong dominating presence in Hollywood and the film industry, have their own BET network and awards show, are represented on political and social issues by their favorite activists such as Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton, and make up a large percentage of the work force in America? Oprah isn't doing too bad last time I checked, nor is P. Diddy or Jay Z.
I just can't believe somebody would even begin to claim that blacks still don't have a fair shot. I know a whole bunch of them are doing way better than me, so should I be able to play the reverse discrimination card? If not, why not? Why are they doing better than me and what did I miss that they were allowed to capitalize on to enjoy financial success? And this is the problem you encounter when trying to "equal" everything and everybody out. We do NOT all start out on the same playing field, and we can not all expect to DO or BE what the next person is.

@freespeechfreelancer So how can black equal bad WHEN, blacks dominate such athletic sports like (football, basketball) [did not research...

blackmail. black Friday (in relation to the great depression.) on you're sports examples I don't get how being athletic proves they are not discriminated against? the leading cause of death among black males under thirty is homicide. there are almost as many blacks in the prison system as there are college graduates. maybe some people have gotten better off. But blacks still face a systemic discrimination and systemic violence

iamthewalruss avatar iamthewalrus Yeah You Are +1Reply
@iamthewalrus blackmail. black Friday (in relation to the great depression.) on you're sports examples I don't get how being...

So you honestly have an issue with the usage of the word "black" itself? Good grief. I don't know your skin color, nor do I care - but you prove the point I made. The RACIST sees skin color. The non racist could care less. I don't care if someone is purple, I see human being and person FIRST.
If blacks are dominating the athletic sports I named, how could they possibly be discriminated against? They own it. They make the big fat salaries and live like kings. And have you run the numbers on how many black youths drop out of school? Or how about how many blacks choose to be in gangs? Or how about how many or those black males are gay and are dying from AIDS?
And what my friend, is the black community and those who ARE successful doing to fix this systemic discrimination and violence issue you refer to? Where are the black leaders such as Martin Luther King blazing new territory? Did not Barack Obama promise to be THE solution to a broken America? Has he delivered in your opinion?
Thankfully, the entire country is not yet in the shape of Chicago, but we are quickly headed in that direction. The very town that he calls his "hometown" is riddled with crime, violence, and gun problems.

@freespeechfreelancer So how can black equal bad WHEN, blacks dominate such athletic sports like (football, basketball) [did not research...

blackmail. black Friday (in relation to the great depression.) on you're sports examples I don't get how being athletic proves they are not discriminated against? the leading cause of death among black males under thirty is homicide. there are almost as many blacks in the prison system as there are college graduates. maybe some people have gotten better off. But blacks still face a systemic discrimination and systemic violence

iamthewalruss avatar iamthewalrus Yeah You Are +1Reply

How easy is it to be all loving liberal when you think it doesn't concern you. If you were to be infected because some Muslim doctor refused to wash his/her hands, you'd be singing a different tune.

This thinking that because you're in America, you should be allowed to do whatever you want to satisfy your religion is ridiculous and will be our down fall. You're in America, you follow our laws. And vice versa if we step into your country.

Aubss avatar Aubs Yeah You Are -5Reply
@Aubs How easy is it to be all loving liberal when you think it doesn't concern you. If you were to be infected because...

Did you actually read the article?

It says nothing about hand washing

they do wash their hands

it'd be ridiculous not to

the differences is that instead of leaving their arms bare
(not the hands
those are still bare)

but instead of leaving the arms bare
they are wearing disposable arm sleeves

again
scrub your hands
scrub your arms
put on the disposables
hygiene complete

seriously

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +6Reply
@Aubs How easy is it to be all loving liberal when you think it doesn't concern you. If you were to be infected because...

My mistake, I had several articles up and got confused. However, I still stand by what I said. If the United Kingdom already has existing laws about their requirements on sanitation for doctors, then no one should come into their country and demand that rules be changed to suit their lifestyle. I will never believe that religion triumps health.

How are detachable sleeves any different than wearing sleeves? You might as well wear a long sleeve shirt and take it off when necessary. I'm all for accepting different beliefs, but where do people get off thinking they deserve special treatment and should have everyone accomodate to you?

Aubss avatar Aubs Yeah You Are -3Reply
@Aubs My mistake, I had several articles up and got confused. However, I still stand by what I said. If the United...

the others do not wear any sleeves at all
there arms are bare

that's why I said this article is making a big deal--out of nothing

I understand if health was the issue
but that's not even it

and existing laws were meant to change when improvements come along

disposable sleeves more seems more hygenic to me
I rather have that touch me than the bare skin

and if someone wants a change and it is not harmful for work environment
then why should there be a problem?

it's not like everyone has to follow the change
just the ones that want to

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +3Reply
@Aubs My mistake, I had several articles up and got confused. However, I still stand by what I said. If the United...

Except the short sleeves law is a recently new law that did not take into account the existing employees needs. It was push through by bureaucrats with no fucking clue.

Nowhere does it say the compromise reached jeopardise patient health.

If some politico passed a law saying that you needed to have your dick circumcised (or have your foreskin sewn back on) that would be unfair.

Requiring people to be immodest or change their bodies in order to do their job is not fair, whether it is arms, boob, dicks or anuses.

I am more concerned about the medical professional working with bare hairy arms than those working with long sleeves. Give me long sleeves every time. I don't want to see your arm pubes dangling over my open wound.

@VicZinc Except the short sleeves law is a recently new law that did not take into account the existing employees needs. It...

If the sleeves were a new law, I would like to know the reasoning behind it. To me it makes sence because loose sleeves can dangle and drag bacteria around with them. If that's the reason, then a fair compromis would be that they must wear some kind of spandex material that fits tight to the arms.

New laws are always put it and you can't make everyone happy. It's up to the UK's disgression and if you live there, it's just something you have to deal with.

However, I don't agree with your comparison to the body. Alterting the physicallity of the body where it can't be reversed isn't the same thing as a dress code.

Aubss avatar Aubs Yeah You Are -3Reply
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