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It amazes you that people believe in god and the bible in this day and age

Amaze might not have been the right word to use. Ill try explain using ghosts. A lot of people believe in ghosts even though there isn't tangible irrefutable evidence. I don't believe in them because of everything I know so far, it tells me it's extraordinarily unlikely to be true. The same with god

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@1923365

I respect their right to believe what they want. I do not respect the belief itself. If you can hate the sin but not the sinner, I can hate the belief but not the believer.

what's so amazing?

it's not as if it's been proven otherwise

it doesn't amaze me when someone doesn't believe either
you either choose to believe or you don't

it's been that way for centuries
group that believes
group that doesn't
group that's neutral
no surprises there

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree +6Reply
@fuzala what's so amazing? it's not as if it's been proven otherwise it doesn't amaze me when someone doesn't believe...

I just think I have a good enough understanding of physics etc to tell me that the stories in the bible couldn't happen. And it amazes me how people can believe something that can not possibly happen on our world

@TylerMayhemDurden I just think I have a good enough understanding of physics etc to tell me that the stories in the bible couldn't...

there's a lot of gap and speculation of what's happened in Earth's history

we can all claim ignorance when it comes to the unknown

who's to say that the laws of nature today were the same billions of years ago?

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree +7Reply
@TylerMayhemDurden They were the same. People just didn't have a good enough understanding of them.

"Precise measurements on the light from distant quasars suggest that the value
of the fine-structure constant may have changed over the history of the universe."

the keyword here is may

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/ast...WAPR03webb.pdf

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree 0Reply
@TylerMayhemDurden Certainly not enough to allow walking on water or the earth to stop revolving though..

hmm
there occasions where mysterious things have occurred in present times with no scientific explanation

I think it's defined as miracle hehe smilie

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree +5Reply
@fuzala hmm there occasions where mysterious things have occurred in present times with no scientific explanation I think...

Definitely. But saying that, think a few hundred years ago. Humans never imagined being able to fly, and yet thousands of us travel through the air at blinding speeds everyday. A miracle to me is just something that hasn't been understood properly

@TylerMayhemDurden Definitely. But saying that, think a few hundred years ago. Humans never imagined being able to fly, and yet...

exactly

science is constantly developing and discovering

potentially
we will understand more about the world in a few years than we do now

and possibly turn "unexplained mysteries" into solved ones

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree +6Reply
@fuzala exactly science is constantly developing and discovering potentially we will understand more about the world in...

But given what we know so far, it's just ignorant to think some of these impossibilities happened. That's just how I feel about it anyway

@TylerMayhemDurden But given what we know so far, it's just ignorant to think some of these impossibilities happened. That's just how...

but as you said before
people thought flying was impossible

people from that time period could say exactly what you said
"given what we know so far, it's just ignorant to think we can fly"

how many people thought that about the Wright brothers?

we are always ignorant
which makes it impossible to rule out different possibilities

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree +4Reply
@fuzala but as you said before people thought flying was impossible people from that time period could say exactly what...

All valid points. But honestly, you know for a fact we can't walk on water. Our weight, the surface tension of water etc, it all shows us that we can't do it. We've made ways to come close, but no cigar. Same as the flying thing. To be more specific, humans didn't think we could fly unassisted. And we can't. Gravity along with every other force that won't let us fly is what's keeping us confined to machines to help us. And what we know so far is far more advanced then several years ago

@TylerMayhemDurden All valid points. But honestly, you know for a fact we can't walk on water. Our weight, the surface tension of...

exactly

tomorrow
we will, potentially, be more advanced than today

today we say downloading food is impossible
this may become possible later on

we'll just have to agree to disagree biggrin smilie

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree +3Reply
@TylerMayhemDurden Haha it seems so. I love this site

yeah me too

it has all kinds of different perspectives
it's interesting to say the least

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree +2Reply
@fuzala yeah me too it has all kinds of different perspectives it's interesting to say the least

Exactly what I was saying to my friend who's over haha. They've never heard of amirite. I may have converted them :)

@fuzala I invited over a thousand people not a single one came their loss

You know a thousand people? Damn. I know like 5. Well, 5 people I consider I know pretty well.

@TylerMayhemDurden You know a thousand people? Damn. I know like 5. Well, 5 people I consider I know pretty well.

I didn't get your last sentence

and ahaha
I don't know "know" 1,000 people
I was just aware of their existence the moment I invited them hehe smilie

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree 0Reply
@TylerMayhemDurden All valid points. But honestly, you know for a fact we can't walk on water. Our weight, the surface tension of...

Of course WE can't walk on water. But Jesus can. And you don't have to take everything in the Bible literally. The story about walking on water is a story of faith. It can be viewed as symbolic. Having faith in God = the ability to do amazing (or impossible) things.

@BetterThanEzra1119 Of course WE can't walk on water. But Jesus can. And you don't have to take everything in the Bible literally. The...

Ive never seen Jesus walk on water or anyone else, so I find it difficult o believe unless someone can actually give me evidence of it happening besides stories

@BetterThanEzra1119 Like I said, the Bible is open to interpretation. You can view it as a metaphor or symbol, if you eish.

It just makes me think of logic.
2+2 is going to equal 4 unless you believe the second 2 is actually magic and is the same as a 6. But that person is still wrong.

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@1924359

Exactly. It's impossible... So it didn't happen eh.

@StickCaveman Belief in a god doesn't always have to rely on some book.

Then what are they basing their belief on? Surely not evidence if any credible source. If they believe in their heart, does that make it fact? No

@TylerMayhemDurden Then what are they basing their belief on? Surely not evidence if any credible source. If they believe in their...

What if a person considered the universe to be a god? Or the Earth or the Sun. They all exist and provide life.

@StickCaveman What if a person considered the universe to be a god? Or the Earth or the Sun. They all exist and provide life.

That's not really what I was talking about, but I've never heard of people thinking of god as the sun except as a loose version in avatar with the sun warriors haha. Perhaps I just haven't come across such information?

There are still more that DO than DON'T.

The thing is, there's actually a ton of academic evidence that points towards the validity of the Bible and Christianity. If you're at all interested, read Mere Christianity (CS Lewis) and/or The Reason for God (Timothy Keller), and that's just the beginning. There is very little scientific evidence that disproves Christianity, unless you're counting the scientific anomalies in the Bible. But the thing is: they're supposed to be impossible. That's why they're called miracles. Additionally, as someone said before, some scholars even believe that the Bible is a long parable, so the impossibilities don't really matter in terms of the truth of the Bible.
I'm not saying you have to believe. I'm just saying there's a lot of reasons people believe, and that living in a society like ours should not discredit those beliefs whether they're supported academically or personally.

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree +3Reply
@canthink The thing is, there's actually a ton of academic evidence that points towards the validity of the Bible and...

No. No, there is not. I'm not going to explain why there is no evidence pointing to the validity of the Bible and Christianity because that's such a ridiculous assertion.

@canthink Why not explain? I'd like to hear it.

It honestly isn't worth the effort. You said "they're supposed to be impossible. That's why they're called miracles." That's all I need to hear to know that you're beyond reason and nothing I say will make any difference to you.
I do appreciate you saying "I'm not saying you have to believe". That is a good attitude, and I thank you for that.

@AtheisticMystic It honestly isn't worth the effort. You said "they're supposed to be impossible. That's why they're called...

Did you read my response to the person below?
I don't believe that everything that's scientifically inaccurate in the Bible is meant to be a miracle. I realize that it's way too general of an argument to explain things away. However, especially in the gospel, some things are meant to be miracles. NOT all, by any means.
Just out of curiosity, though, have you read the Bible or any other religious texts?

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree 0Reply
@canthink Did you read my response to the person below? I don't believe that everything that's scientifically inaccurate in...

Okay, then how do you explain the impossibilities that aren't miracles?
I've read a few stories from the Bible and I'm familiar with the ones that I haven't read. I prefer to research the book rather than actually sit down and read it. I've tried that and it got boring very quickly.

@AtheisticMystic Okay, then how do you explain the impossibilities that aren't miracles? I've read a few stories from the Bible and...

Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with the old testament, where I'm guessing the impossibilities come from, so can you give me some examples?
I think it's also important to read things firsthand, especially religious documents. The Bible is interpreted differently by many scholars so it's most effective to read the most important books yourself to get a better idea of how to argue against Christianity.

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree 0Reply
@canthink Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with the old testament, where I'm guessing the impossibilities come from, so can...

I've read about a third of the bible, and it's probably the strongest tool disproving Christianity there is

@canthink Which third was it?

Random sections equalling about a third. I started at the begininning then skipped through parts.. Some of those stories are really messed up, and condratict themselves a lot. Like killing is wrong, but we should murder gays and people who have sex before marriage

@TylerMayhemDurden Random sections equalling about a third. I started at the begininning then skipped through parts.. Some of those...

Yes, the old testament is pretty messed up. But scholars generally accept that Leviticus (which I think you read, that or Deuteronomy), along with other passages, was a way to keep Jewish Israelites alive until the coming of the Messiah. Think about it: in that time period, having many sexual partners meant more STDs. That means no sex before marriage. Pork (animals with hooves) are disease ridden. That means people shouldn't eat them. There are a huge number of internet resources that can further expand on this, since I'm not a Biblical scholar and I could easily word this incorrectly.
And yes, the stories are messed up. That was a completely different culture with more significant punishments for wrongdoings.
Additionally, old testament law does state that the punishment for sex before marriage is death, but I've read that wasn't even enforced most of the time.

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree 0Reply
@canthink Yes, the old testament is pretty messed up. But scholars generally accept that Leviticus (which I think you read...

Not only that, there's a story in there about the earth stopping its rotation. Which I don't really see how is supposed to be metaphorical, it just doesn't make much sense to me. If the earth stopped rotating, gravity would cease. Which means everything that isn't connected to the earth would be flung into space much like a slingshot

@TylerMayhemDurden Not only that, there's a story in there about the earth stopping its rotation. Which I don't really see how is...

Well, even the people who wrote (transcribed) the Bible doubt that one. It doesn't make sense to them either. Joshua 10:13 "Is this not written in the book of Jasher?" This is an editorial comment written in by the scribe of Joshua, who seems incredulous that this happened.
It was also ignored in Hebrews 11 and Psalm 136 (and all other psalms), which mention the great works of God.
The story is considered a "tall tale" and is rejected by other parts of scripture. It's not really a good argument against Christianity since it seems to be rejected by not only the document itself but by many scholars since it's physically impossible.

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree +1Reply
@canthink Well, even the people who wrote (transcribed) the Bible doubt that one. It doesn't make sense to them either...

A good argument against Christianity is any story, because to find one that scholars or whomever believe to be true is impossible

@TylerMayhemDurden A good argument against Christianity is any story, because to find one that scholars or whomever believe to be true...

That's not accurate. The gospels are accepted to be true by Biblical scholars, and many others, as well as the majority of (the rest of) the new testament. There are just a few examples in which the stories are rejected due to their physical and lawful impossibilities, mostly in the old testament.

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree 0Reply
@canthink Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with the old testament, where I'm guessing the impossibilities come from, so can...

I don't like to argue against any religion in particular, I prefer to focus on the entire concept of religion. Human needs present an obvious reason why we could create religion. Every religion has god(s) who happen to look like the people that believe in that religion. Prayer, from any faith, has no measurable effects. Every religion ever created has the same amount of supporting evidence and is just as likely to be true as the next. There is no reason to choose one over another unless one was born into a particular religion and brought up to believe that is the truth. Religions centered around a deity (or many) have always existed and are incredibly diverse. Every civilization with every religion has been adamant in the truthfulness of their faith. They can't all be right, so is it more likely that Christianity (or any other) is miraculously the one that turns out to be true and the rest are just fairy tales, or that they're all wrong?
Also, why would God tell only a certain group of people in a certain area about himself and then leave it up to them to tell everyone else? Why not go over to the next continent and tell at least one person over there that they're worshiping the wrong God, rather than let His followers take their sweet time getting there and then slaughter the pagans they find?

@AtheisticMystic I don't like to argue against any religion in particular, I prefer to focus on the entire concept of religion...

Can you give me examples from the old testament, though? I find it's easier to argue when I have a specific quote to analyze.
Yes, each culture has been adamant in their faith. That's completely true. However, Christianity was completely counterproductive in its methods of storytelling (and proving that its stories are true) and the fact that it's widespread validates its claims. For example, the way Jesus' followers claimed he rose from the dead. Any other religious sect from the past that claimed their leader rose from the dead was ostracized. In fact, if a religious sect's leader died, they usually found a new one or abandoned the cause. It was completely unheard of to insist that someone was brought back to life. Additionally, it listed primarily women as sources of information and witnesses. In that time period, women's opinions never really counted for anything. However, the Bible didn't fabricate any eyewitness accounts so it can only list women. I really hope that makes sense. If not, I can expand on it.
In regards to a God only telling a chosen amount of people: I don't have an answer for you, but I don't understand how that could disprove religion. You don't need to understand everything about the nature of a God to believe in Him.

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree 0Reply
@canthink Can you give me examples from the old testament, though? I find it's easier to argue when I have a specific quote...

That's my big problem with faith, right there. You don't need to understand to believe. In my case, yes I do. I wouldn't invest money in something I don't understand, so why would I base my entire view of the universe and life itself on something that I don't understand?
Greeks, Egyptians, and Buddhists, to name a few, have God(s) that were resurrected.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying about women and eyewitnesses.
One example of a biblical impossibility is Jonah being swallowed by the whale. And living.

@AtheisticMystic That's my big problem with faith, right there. You don't need to understand to believe. In my case, yes I do. I...

Well, yes, I do need to understand. I'm not buying into a religion that I was raised to believe, I'm believing in something that I see evidence for both personally and academically. But that doesn't mean I need to understand 100% of it because that's extremely difficult with any subject.
Gods, not real-life religious leaders. Yes, historians accept that Jesus existed. It's just a matter of believing what he said or not. Buddhism is modern, yes, but doesn't actually believe in or follow a main god (or a god in general), so that argument doesn't really make sense. Did you mean Hinduism?
Okay, well consider the societal position of women in Biblical times. They were pretty much disregarded in terms of opinion and importance. For example, in a large crowd, only men were counted. If a woman's opinion was so undervalued and, in that time, not dependable, why would the Bible cite mostly women as eyewitness sources? That's extremely counterproductive.
Jonah wasn't even necessarily swallowed by a whale. Matthew 12:40 says he was, but the Greek translation could mean any type of large fish. Corinthians defines any creature that does not live on land as a fish, so there could be any number of creatures that swallowed Jonah. That means there could have been enough space in the gullet of the fish to swallow a man whole. Additionally, "three days and three nights" is a Hebrew idiom that actually means the period of time started in the beginning one day and ended in the day directly following (although not used idiomatically for Jesus' revival, as far as I know). And there have been documented cases of men surviving inside of fish. You can also make the argument that Jonah's experience with the whale is an analogy for Jesus' resurrection, so it doesn't even have to have happened. It can be a metaphor.

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree 0Reply
@AtheisticMystic That's my big problem with faith, right there. You don't need to understand to believe. In my case, yes I do. I...

Oh, adding onto my other comment, I personally don't really buy into the whole "Jonah being eaten by a whale and surviving" story as literal. Within the context of the prophecies surrounding Jonah's story, it seems that it's more of a parable, considering it's surrounded by heavy prophecies about the coming of Jesus. In fact, the story of Jonah was probably used when the Bible was read aloud to keep the attention of young or distracted listeners. Additionally, Jonah was being sent to Nineveh which was, at the time, a deteriorating city. Why would he be sent there to protest against corrupt rulers? There's no point, really.
There's so much parable in the Bible. I suppose the Bible could be a good argument against itself if you approach it literally, but given that Jesus himself spoke mostly in parables (rather than literally), I don't think it's meant to be that way.

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree 0Reply
@TylerMayhemDurden So I guess my real issue is people believing fictional stories as fact

Yep. I have the same issue. There are a ton of historically accurate stories in the Bible, but there are also a lot of parables that don't make scientific sense (and aren't supposed to be real).

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree 0Reply
@canthink The thing is, there's actually a ton of academic evidence that points towards the validity of the Bible and...

So basically whenever something in the Bible doesn't make scientific sense you can just call it a miracle and then it's perfectly logical? Ok

tags avatar tag Agree 0Reply
@tag So basically whenever something in the Bible doesn't make scientific sense you can just call it a miracle and then...

Well, no. I'm not saying you can explain everything illogical away by calling it a miracle. There's a ton of information that I don't understand in the old testament and that I won't dismiss as a miracle. That's not the point of my argument at all.
The point is, the things Jesus (and others) did were supposed to be miracles and were treated as such in the Bible. By contrast, other things were socially and scientifically accurate and were also treated as such.
I'm just saying that a lot of things that weren't scientifically accurate weren't meant to be. I'm not saying that everything that doesn't make sense scientifically can be passed off as a miracle.

canthinks avatar canthink Disagree 0Reply

Yeah, I can't understand how people will 100% devote their lives to something that came out of absolutely nowhere. It makes sense to me that people will sit around and speculate about where everything came from and come to the answer that something made it. The whole backstory, though, is just insane. Nothing in Christianity/Catholicism seem based upon anything in the observable Universe. And don't tell me that people can't just come up with this type of elaborate stuff out of nowhere, I urge you to familiarize yourself with works of fiction. I'd wager that the entire Marvel and DC universes are even more elaborate than the entirety of those religions, and the people will came up with them are still alive.

1. Born in a time where people knew next to nothing and were looking for answers.
2. Based upon seemingly nothing.
3. Not a single shred of evidence to corroborate any of it.
4. People are capable of creating very rich and elaborate stories in very little time.

I would hope that people would at least say, "Hmm, I don't know. I get the feeling we should reconsider all of this. Perhaps let us give it some though."

Which is exactly why it amazes me...?

I definitely could have worded my post a lot better. What I'm really trying to say is that our society keeps progressing, and the belief in religion is holding us back because of what they choose to believe as true, instead of what is known as true and can be supported with irrefutable evidence

@TylerMayhemDurden I definitely could have worded my post a lot better. What I'm really trying to say is that our society keeps...

I think that progress and religiousness are not mutually exclusive

"¿Por que no los dos?"

YouTube video thumbnail

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree +4Reply
@fuzala I think that progress and religiousness are not mutually exclusive "¿Por que no los...

If you look at history you'll see how far we could be right now, and why we aren't

@TylerMayhemDurden If you look at history you'll see how far we could be right now, and why we aren't

you have no way of knowing this

people are very different
in many many ways

it's a good thing for variety
but it creates a lot of tension
and can stunt progress

I'd never get rid of variety though

fuzalas avatar fuzala Disagree +1Reply

I'm pretty drunk so I apologize I this seems naive, but it sounds like you're comparing religion to comic books. Which in my opinion, they are categorized in the same field. Both made up stories by someone/a lot of people. And maybe some
People choose to believe that that particular story is real and true. It doesn't make it actually true though, and just because you believe it doesn't make it any less fiction

I understand that reasoning too, but it isn't about respecting beliefs. Just because they believe in something doesn't make it true. And the evidence points away from it being true

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@1923374

I know Christians that actually believe these things happened though

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