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If you are BORN in to something, you have not really CHOSEN it for yourself. Amirite?

Basically, if you are born in to a family that farms, and they raise you to be a farmer, you did not necessarily have any say or choice about your future. This happens quite a bit in our country. Or if you are born in to an affluent family, the tendency is for you to become a doctor, lawyer, or some other lucrative career. The same applies to religion. If you are born in to a family that practices a certain faith or denomination, many grow up and follow the status or tradition of the family - never looking outside that immediate circle or sphere of exposure.
If a person is perfectly happy and content doing so, that is fine. But did THEY personally ever really choose those things for themselves?

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unless the person explores his/her options and still chooses the farmer path

in that case
even if he/she was born into
it was a choice

happens pretty often
many view it as "rebellious"
but the good kind of rebellion

fuzalas avatar fuzala No Way +1Reply
@fuzala unless the person explores his/her options and still chooses the farmer path in that case even if he/she was born...

Psychology may still push people to chose the life they're familiar with as opposed to even a more enjoyable, yet unfamiliar career or faith.

Especially in faith, people are usually taught that the world is exactly such, and most, if not all faiths don't encourage taking any other religion seriously, giving all others an unfair disadvantage from the very start.

When people are convinced from their most naive age to believe something, they would hold that conviction likely to heart if others dear to them continue to share that belief and perpetuate that belief in them, just because time and exposure at a young age can cause convictions to bypass the critical thinking stage. Though this is not necessarily the case, it's things like that that cause people to adopt beliefs of their parents, no matter how ridiculous.

This does not always hold true, but when it does, it's most often because people didn't consciously chose to adopt the beliefs they do.

The only other reason children would so adamantly adhere to their parents' beliefs would be because of genetic similarities in the brain, but that just seems like a stretch for parents and children to be so similar that they, without any nurtural bias, would believe the same things. There is definitely some strong nurtural bias.

@Watchful_questioneer Psychology may still push people to chose the life they're familiar with as opposed to even a more enjoyable, yet...

Image in content

the way you say that makes it seem as if the only way for it to be a choice is for the person to end up in an unfamiliar path

which I don't think is true

when someone explores his/her options
the new path becomes familiar sometimes
so if they go back to the old path
it would be a choice still

I think you mentioned the exception
but I still wanted to say it

@fuzala the way you say that makes it seem as if the only way for it to be a...

But take faith for example: how many people do you think would actually put their own faith aside for a moment to actually seriously consider converting, and evaluate another religion by the same standards as their own?

Maybe some would, I honestly can't say, but I theorize that, from a psychological standpoint, having a commitment to a certain religion would hinder one's ability to judge others by the same standard.

I'm not religious, so I may be wrong, though.

@Watchful_questioneer But take faith for example: how many people do you think would actually put their own faith aside for a moment to...

Some religions have higher switch rates than others. Faith is one aspect. It's not just being born into something. Although kids share many of their parent's ideas, there's a lot of ideas they rebel against. It's a two way street. Kids clash with their parents all the time.

With aspects such as career choice, life partner, school choice, location, clothing style, choices of friends

I strongly think there is a choice with all of this

I know how teens are and it doesn't matter for many what they're born into

it does not stop them from exploring the unfamiliar

it's a part of development that is seen as exciting
new territory draws a flock

just look at trends
and the average teens' rebelliousness

also
many eventually leave home in search of their own "self"
on their own and doing their own thing
sometimes, things their parents' wouldn't advocate
I don't buy the not having a choice

@fuzala Some religions have higher switch rates than others. Faith is one aspect. It's not just being born into something...

Just because they rebel, doesn't mean they're properly evaluating their options. If anything, that just means they're just as biased towards the opposite of whatever their parents do, as opposed to viewing everything fairly, which is just as blind.

@Watchful_questioneer Just because they rebel, doesn't mean they're properly evaluating their options. If anything, that just means...

rebelling does not equal being biased towards the other view
it's opposing or resisting something because you don't have a preference for it

if someone does not like the career path a parent suggested and rebels
it's not because he/she is biased against it
it's because that's not what he/she wants to do

@fuzala rebelling does not equal being biased towards the other view it's opposing or resisting something because you don't...

But kids, in their ignorance, very often believe so and fling themselves away from their parents views with so much force that it carries them to the opposite bias.

As you say- not always, but still often, bby my observations.

@Watchful_questioneer But kids, in their ignorance, very often believe so and fling themselves away from their parents views with so much...

I'm going by James Marcia's identity states
and I agree with all four

they're a little broad
but I'm a strong believer of having a choice regardless of the circumstances involved
the only exception I can think of is with having a gun to your head

even if the kid was to go with what the parent said
still CHOSE to do so

sure there are influencing factors
but that's for ANY decision that is made
whether someone is "born into it" or not

we're a product of nature with nurture
there's no doubting that
but that in no way means that it was not a choice

@fuzala I'm going by James Marcia's identity states and I agree with all four they're a little broad but I'm a strong...

Sure we're choosing, but is it a free choice if we're not viewing our options clearly?

@Watchful_questioneer Sure we're choosing, but is it a free choice if we're not viewing our options clearly?

how would you prove someone is not doing so?
that someone is not viewing the options clearly

@fuzala how would you prove someone is not doing so? that someone is not viewing the options clearly

By the fact that they're exaggerating a perception of things beyond a degree of reasonable subjectivity.

@Watchful_questioneer By the fact that they're exaggerating a perception of things beyond a degree of reasonable subjectivity.

that's all speculation

regardless
I go back to my other comment
every decision we make is influenced
it's as clear as we make it to be
it's as clear as a decision can be when it is influenced by other factors

@fuzala that's all speculation regardless I go back to my other comment every decision we make is influenced it's as...

Yeah, you're right, there may be no way to tell, but I still feel it happens. I think it's a confusion of motives that lies in the subconscious, and can't really be tested.

It's speculative how often this happens, but I think some portion of people who divert paths of thought and belief from their parents feel this way, though there's no way to tell what percentage exactly.

@Watchful_questioneer Sure we're choosing, but is it a free choice if we're not viewing our options clearly?

No it isn't. We can only choose from what is given us - and ALL possible options are not available to any of us.

@freespeechfreelancer No it isn't. We can only choose from what is given us - and ALL possible options are not available to any of us.

But that can't be the definition of a choice, or else there's no true choice anywhere in the world.

I simply think true choice is when our only motive is picking the best choice, rather than pushing away from a former belief or just being different or something.

@Watchful_questioneer But that can't be the definition of a choice, or else there's no true choice anywhere in the world. I simply think...

I can see where you are coming from, but from my perspective, TRUE CHOICE would be the freedom to choose without any limitation or restriction from any other source. And I actually do NOT believe there is true or real total choice in any situation or circumstance. Since nobody is a totally independent autonomous being, then we are all restricted and have controls or constraints (confines) that we MUST operate within or under. We are ONLY free to choose from within that sphere or scope of our immediate realm. And every human has been pre-programmed by OTHER outside sources (parents, schools, books, music, television, friends, experiences), which directly affected and determined any and every CHOICE we will ever make.

@freespeechfreelancer I can see where you are coming from, but from my perspective, TRUE CHOICE would be the freedom to choose without...

So I don't really think it can be called "true choice", because other choices are still definitely "choice", but obstructed. I think that something a child is taught strictly to believe is biased to the point of being doomed to make a certain choice, and therefore not really choice because bias obstructs judgment and even obstructs personal interest (or what is perceived to be in pursuit of such).

@Watchful_questioneer But take faith for example: how many people do you think would actually put their own faith aside for a moment to...

I think you are pretty accurate. I grew up in it, so I know the inside. Once you are conditioned it is hard to get to a point where you can say you are FREE or INDEPENDENT of or from it so you CAN make up your own mind. And by the time you are old enough to try doing so, you have been completely "programmed" in it - so does a person really have a choice? That was the driving thought behind my statements.

@Watchful_questioneer But take faith for example: how many people do you think would actually put their own faith aside for a moment to...

if you looked at the image I posted earlier
it has four squares (James Marcia)

some people fall into Identity foreclosure

some people fall into identity achievement
I think that's the healthiest square in that it was the person's though out decision based on both commitment, crisis, and exploration

studies also so that in the teen years
peers have more of an influence in choices than parents do
because of being able to relate to peers more

we're affected by nature with nurture
but that doesn't mean who don't have the free will and choice

@Watchful_questioneer Psychology may still push people to chose the life they're familiar with as opposed to even a more enjoyable, yet...

Here is a comment I made regarding a post about what we know:
I lean more towards your view than being able to actually know. We think we know many things, but EVERYTHING we "know" comes from some source that we can never fully verify. But for the sake of discussion - if you took an infant and raised it in a fully secured one room cubicle, without any outside world contact (other than the person raising it), you could teach that child anything you chose to and it would only KNOW such. If I were the person raising it and held up an apple and called it a banana, I could teach the child that information. I could teach it that 2 + 2 = 50 or any other combination of thoughts, ideas, and concepts. It would have nothing to challenge or question its learning by/with, so everything I taught it would be its TRUTH, REALITY, and KNOWLEDGE.
I would like your thoughts on this.

@freespeechfreelancer Here is a comment I made regarding a post about what we know: I lean more towards your view than being able to...

I completely agree, but all that would fall into question once the child was introduced into the world. Only then would they begin to struggle over the question of loyalties between the teacher and the outside world, and there, personality comes into play so it'll be different for everyone. That's what the unknown is.

@Watchful_questioneer I completely agree, but all that would fall into question once the child was introduced into the world. Only then...

Don't know if you saw this post, but there was quite a stimulating dialogue taking place earlier today. I did not see any comments by you. Take a look and see what you think.
http://www.amirite.com/763413-i...y-in-your-life

@Watchful_questioneer I completely agree, but all that would fall into question once the child was introduced into the world. Only then...

But if the child was NEVER introduced to the real world, you would have a person who totally believed a completely different set of stimuli as being true, correct, and what everyone else believed.

@freespeechfreelancer But if the child was NEVER introduced to the real world, you would have a person who totally believed a completely...

Yes, I agree, assuming complete isolation and no show of contradiction of what the upbringer teaches.

@Watchful_questioneer Yes, I agree, assuming complete isolation and no show of contradiction of what the upbringer teaches.

And would you then think that if you did not release this child in to the REAL world until it was a young adult, that it would ever actually be able to "believe" or come around to understanding or accepting that everyone else in the world was right and it was wrong? And isn't the only way that a system or body of thought works is because the MAJORITY of people decide to accept and agree upon those concepts? [if the world decided to start calling apples bananas, could we in fact change the entire system of thought?]

@freespeechfreelancer And would you then think that if you did not release this child in to the REAL world until it was a young adult...

It probably could not, depending on which principles were taught exactly. If morals, then probably not, but if something refutable, then probably so. It also depends on the child. But overall, unlikely, when talking about teachings that aren't entirely disprovable, though not socially accepted.

That's why national pride doesn't make too much sense to me.

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