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Americans who criticize secular government in Europe --- when your country finally tears itself asunder over faith and denominational division, and your streets run red with the blood of martyrs on all sides, maybe then you'll see the merits of keeping religion out of politics.

Europe's religious divisions tore the continent apart for countless centuries. Atrocity followed atrocity as one "righteous" group attempted to lord it over the other. America seems to still be in that stage where religion is a necessity in good governance - Europe was there many hundreds of years ago and we have since abandoned that notion (something which america frequently chastises us for). As the post says, just you wait America, when the storm hits you and your growing numbers of denominations and ideas, maybe the killings and turmoil will make you see our point of view.

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TommyUK1234s avatar Religion
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I'm tired of religion being so influential in politics...

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@1979892

Once again you choose to twist certain words to your own ends. First, this is not an attack on America, it's an attack on THOSE AMERICANS who criticize secular government in Europe. Second, it responds to their criticisms by pointing out that after being ravaged by countless centuries of holy war, Europe finally saw the value of secularisation in government, even if we didn't actually remove the connections between church and state in a fully legal sense (e.g. England). Finally, I don't know why you chose this post to have a dig at Britain's history. All I can say is that it was a typically American/Chinese response where instead of viewing what's in the question, you choose to turn it into a thing about everything that's outside the question. I have news for you, that's a piss-poor response.

In other news, being critical of a nation doesn't equate to hating it, as I have tried to explain to you before (while grossly overestimating your ability to listen and accept things that others say to you). I am critical of my own country ALL the time. MP's expenses, the ravages of unleashed socialism in the UK, the politics of consensus, one-nation toryism, the growing role of national fronts threatening our very stability, the impossible bureaucratic hell of our involvement politically with the EU --- the list is endless. What on earth makes you think that just because you say something critical of a place it means you hate it? If your friend criticizes your cooking, does that mean they hate you? By your logic it does.

Let's hope you actually choose to read this and address points in it, instead of coming up with some snarky un-related comment like you always seem to do. And to address one more point in your post, the only other country that's possibly MORE grateful than you that you won your independence is Britain. You can't even imagine how wealthy and powerful we became off the back of trade and commerce with an independent America. Even parliamentarians who supported suppressing your revolution came forth and admitted they were wrong, and that an independent America was the best thing that ever happened to Britain. Cheers, America. You weren't such a bad kid after all. Not as well as behaved as Canada, and we'd appreciate more than an annual phone call from you, but we love ya nonetheless.

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@1979898

cue the snark - not a single point addressed or acknowledged. Right on schedule. Americans of course never criticise anyone! How could I have been so blind?

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@1979904

It starts with the people its addressing "Americans who criticize secular government in Europe." How else should I have put it?

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@1979901

Once again, didn't attack America in this post. And once again, putting forward a less-than positive review on any aspect of America or American society is NOT an attack on America. Me trying to undermine its constitution, freedom or rights of citizens would be an attack on America. You clearly don't understand what "attacking" a country really is. Open and free discussion are things that BOTH our nations were built on, and stopping the machinations of people who think like you was also one of those things; people who just want to block out negativity and ensure everyone only ever hears glowing, positive and lovely, kind things that may or may not even be true. If Americans and Chinese could only acknowledge the many similarities between them, our world would be such a better place.

@1979900

I'm not sure how many times I've repeated this to you, but I will once more just so you can get it into your head. I do live in China now, because i SERVE MY COUNTRY in China. Do you understand this? It's quite striking how many times you've glossed over that fact.

Also, you assume that because I don't list all the shortcomings of my own country in this particular post which is actually about a certain group of American people (and not America, as I have pointed out already but once again, you don't listen), that therefore I'm being hypocritical, is that right? Is there even room for me to fit all that stuff in there? When did it become a rule that in order to criticize anyone of anything you have to first list all the faults of something else different to that? I think a lot of the posts on here would be different if it were a rule.

And a final thing, while I'm not talking about America or Americans as a whole in this post, let's turn to that as an issue since it's clearly what you want to talk about. What is it with Americans like you who act all shocked and offended that the world talks about and inevitably criticizes them so much. America is the premier superpower of this age, it should be expecting to take the heat for A LOT of stuff. You can't just get all upset and offended because people have problems with your country. And you can't play the victim and act as though you're the first country to ever take flak for its actions. Look at your words there

"You aren't allowed to tell us just how fucked up we are while ignoring the shortfalls of both your desired homelands" --- where do I begin with this? I guess first I should remind you that I just DID list a whole bunch of British issues in the the last response. And I also for the second time in this response would like to remind you that I SERVE MY COUNTRY in China, and also have pointed out in discussions on here and as an OP the myriad faults of China. You're just someone who doesn't read what's right in front of them. I'd wager a lot on you glossing over this response too and making some totally contradictory and irrelevant statement to the facts I'm giving you right now. Good luck to ya.

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@1979906

My point about glossing over is, that you constantly point out this thing about me living in China like I'm a traitor, and that I "abandoned" my country, I think that was the word you used. And I have told you on several occasions that I am here in China SERVING my country. You have, as of yet, failed to acknowledge your grievous and insulting lack of judgment in repeating this nonsense.

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@1979908

If you can't bring yourself to apologize for your baseless slight against my sense of duty, then I suggest you just shut the hell up. It's pathetic. I clearly have a different perspective on certain issues related to America and Americans and you just don't like it because it's so radically different from yours. You can't just go around telling people they "can't" say that. Do you hear me telling you to stop ranting about China? No, I just give you my view and hope that it helps you form a more balanced judgment. Your idea is just to shut everyone up who says something you don't like that's related to America.

I think I'm plenty balanced. But nobody really is perfectly balanced on everything, because we'll always have our little prejudices and bias. For example, I can never bring myself to find love and support for Argentina because of not that ancient history between their nation and mine and what I see as a continuing attack on British sovereign territory. It's a fault I have, one among many.

If you think that there's any British person out there in the world that truly doesn't know the faults and limitations of their own country, then you haven't met any real British people. The way you just keep ignoring what i say and launching your own little petty snidey snips just proves that you don't want to know better.

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@1979910

No, I barely agree with anything he's done. I think he's a terrible disappointment and has let the entire world down who originally viewed him as someone who was going to be a breath of fresh air in China; improving relations with the West and increasing stability in the region. instead he is presiding over a terrible attack on people's liberties in ways no one could have imagined. He's got all the makings of another strongman, and I now fear for the direction this country will go in.

@1979910

I mean, it's a guy who stood in front of a room filled with Europeans whose ancestors lived under absolute monarchy for hundreds upon hundreds of years before choosing democracy over that, and he said "democracy will never work for us" --- absolutely unbelievable. How does he expect Europeans to accept such a view? It's ludicrous.

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@1979914

Because it reflects the prevailing attitude. Chinese don't crticise the UK for being secular in government, because they believe in secular government too. And the British people don't tend to like religion being mixed up in government too much because we know the kind of thinking it leads to. Having experienced republican and religious tyranny under Cromwell, it is burned into the nation's heart, not to mention the crap before that and beyond it. It is a prevailing and powerfully expressed opinion from THOSE Americans I'm referring to, and it is THAT AND THOSE PEOPLE I am addressing. If you are not one of those Americans, then you have no reason to feel attacked or threatened. I am not addressing a nation, nor an entire people, but rather a group of people. If you have failed to understand that, then it is your own problem.

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@1979917

Dunno, it's likely provided by the district education bureau. I'm not in the IT department. I'm one of those people that is happy to use the internet, but has no idea how it really works :-P

@1979914

Do all Americans criticize europe for secular government? NO, that's why it doesn't just say "Americans" - it clearly identifies a specific group of Americans. A group that I gather you are not part of. Your bombastic remarks at me are completely misguided and based on your own total failure to grasp what the post is saying.

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@1979920

I already explained in the other comment. It's about a relevant and prevailing view that is right there being thrown in my face from all manner of people.

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@1979923

Once again, missing the point entirely. This is about secular government, not about one particular religion.I don't actually mention any one religion in particular in the post. It's the view very strongly being put to me constantly by these Americans that secular government is both evil and wrong, and spells the end of society blah blah blah. The great irony is that these Americans don't seem to acknowledge that America itself has separation of church and state.

@1979920

You keep calling it an attack. I call it a response!

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@1979925

You're saying that your response is narrow and hostile? Yes, I agree, it was! And founded on your own misunderstandings which you have yet to admit

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@1979928

A generalization would be "Americans, stop attacking Europe for being secular" - I am specifically addressing those Americans who attack secular government in Europe

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@1979931

It's a response to those Americans I have encountered and those I have seen. They are arguably the most visible and vocal on this specific subject, and given their own position, it warrants this response.

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@1979933

What has that got to do with this?! When did we get on to talking about Tibet? Jeez are you just clutching at straws or what?!

@1979933

If and when I feel the need to respond to the others, I will, believe me. They have given me little cause to as of yet.

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@1979936

So we have just mysteriously moved onto Tibet now? Do we really have to now get into the whole Tibet argument. Do you even know how epically complex and messy it is? I mean...wow. And what, pray, do you think the Chinese response is to Tibet?

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@1979938

This "debate" if you can even call it that is about you viewing my response to a particular group of americans as an outright attack on the US. You also presumed to question my loyalty to my country and my sense of duty. What's more, you've yet to actually fully address the vast majority of any points that I've made.

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@1979940

It must be so easy for you to sleep when you can't even follow reason or logic. I don't need to keep explaining myself to you. If you really don't understand any of the reasoning I've tried to offer you, then just don't bother commenting. To any reasonable person you just sound like an idiot. Harsh words but true. I don't know how many times I have repeatedly said these things to you and reasoned them out step by step and you just keep coming back to "You hate America."

You know Family Guy once did a bit about people like you. With that droopy faced dog on a Fox News show with some guy who no matter what he tried to say just said "You hate America! You hate America!' "You contradicted me, so you hate America!" - that's exactly what you sound like right now.

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@1980003

Hey it was fun to watch lol

@1980003

That's a fun way of you admitting you don't have a leg to stand on. By the way, you still haven't apologized for insulting my sense of duty and calling me a traitor. You not being able to admit that you got totally owned in discussion is irrelevant to me, but you thinking you just get away with insulting me like that and not even acknowledging it...no no.

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@1980201

I really think he still thinks you're serious lol

@JohnJillky He trolled the actual SH*T out of you.

It's rather a sad state of affairs when people have to admit to trolling because there's no way out of admitting that they were just being as thick as the big-print edition of the life's work of Charles Dickens (as george might've said). He even threw in being drunk and bored. I guess we may have just uncovered DW2's raging alcoholism, as the standard of reply from them is consistently this low.

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@1980229

As an American you enjoy less freedom than your European brethren...ironically...but hey, you know. Never mind. The booze will convince you otherwise.

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@1982862

I'd tread carefully on the grounds of the slave labor endorsement, since its your american markets that drive the need for slave labor across the entire world...having said that, you not knowing the first thing about China is of little consequence, and it's clear that my coherent and well-presented statements are wasted on you. For example, calling China a communist country is probably the dumbest most ignorant thing you could ever say about this place. Even the Chinese would laugh at you for that one.

As for the European brethren, just check Freedom House's ranking and the myriad eurotrash nations that are ahead of you guys.

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@1982955

Wow...first of all, the fact that you'd rely on Wikipedia for the answer to this is laughable beyond all belief. Allow me to tell you...and not for the first time I don't think...China NEVER refers to itself as a communist country. They use the word "socialist" with an added flavor of "with Chinese characteristics." It's basically their highly euphemistic, thinly veiled way of saying they are now an authoritarian capitalist country. I suppose having never read a Chinese newspaper, seen a news bulletin or talked to any kind of government officials in China, you'd know all about it, especially as you've read something on wikipedia (the same website that once confidently published that 9 billion people were living in Seoul, and that has been slammed by scholars and educators the world over as a hotbed of inaccuracy and unreliability).

The fact they call themselves the communist party is merely a product of their own history with flirting with communist ideas. When their communist policies killed some 30 or more million people during the Great Leap Forward, they knew it was time to rethink, but they couldn't because of the Mao's personal power and influence. In 1976, after he died, the new leader Deng Xiaoping coined the phrase "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" as he prepared to open the PRC up to the world one city/region at a time.

The Chinese word for communism (共产主义 gong chan zhu yi) is not one you see ever describing the ideology of the government in any publication, broadcast or anything else remotely meaningful that discusses the government. They are a people who also fear "losing face" above all, which is why the term socialism with chinese characteristics was an attractive option of appearing to keep socialist policy while actually embracing capitalist ones. Every reform and change that comes to this country is a step further away from socialism, just as their policy of opening up (while still maintaining a horrible socialist facade of state-owned enterprise etc) was a move away from communism.

But yeah...you go ahead and trust Wikipedia if you really want. I suppose the knowledge, insight and experience of the countless thousands of Chinese people and officials I've met over my 10 years here is far less reliable a source of information than the world's most popular website for settling drunken disputes among the world's ignorant. Oh yeah...and the fact that living here is all the proof anyone needs that there's no such thing as communism in this country. From your assessment of what constitutes a real communist country...I'd say you clearly don't even know what communism even is!

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@1983301

pathetic beyond words. you do your great country so much shame by being such an ignorant spazmaloid.

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@1985466

the funny thing, i literally did...because as you keep forgetting, I work for my country over here.

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@1985489

I'd sooner trash talk you than talk trash like you do.

@1985478

oh yeah, and I kiss up to no one. I simply tell it like it is. That's why I'm not an actual diplomat. I merely help people who need it in China, including Americans. It's what friends do. They're also honest with each other. Oh yeah, and I didn't talk trash about America, I made a point to a certain group of Americans about something they believe that I profoundly disagree with. There's a BIG difference there. I don't talk trash, I say what I mean and I mean what I say. Same can't be said for you - you clearly don't know the meaning of what anyone around you is saying.

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