I think the two being at least seemingly synonymous goes back to George Mason's Declaration of Rights in Virginia, from which much of Jefferson's original draft of the DOI was taken.
Mason's Declaration described natural rights as: "enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety." It was always understood that justly acquired property was among the self-evident rights.
Of course profit isn't the key to happiness, but it is part and parcel with the concept of private property. It's impossible to separate profit from the concept property. It is indecent, but not illegal to be greedy. The prospect of profit and by extension property has also been a wonderful motivator of productivity... which isn't entirely bad either. Perhaps that was the whole idea?
Perhaps, course there's different types of profit, it's one of the many diversely defined words. Kinda like success, different people have very different definitions of the word.
On the whole though, I think it's safe to presume that the absence of private property rights is a disincentive to most people. If a person knows they'll never get ahead, they tend to give up regardless of how they personally define profit or success. But that's just my opinion.
You're speaking my language. Much like the distinction between private enterprise and 'free' enterprise. Yes, that's a great point.
I disagree with your premise, profit has NOTHING to do with the American Way. Being able to provide for your family and yourself and not be dependent upon a government is the American Way. And by providing for the ones you love, you can provide and care for others..
pusute of happiness whas originaly frazed as the right of property
Thanks for providing support of my argument.
Not sure why you hit disagree and
then commented with a statement
that totally agrees with my post.
Except that it doesn't. [support your argument]
Keep telling yourself that
Money provides options. Options are a good thing. Money is only a problem when it warps who you are.
The notion that pursuit of happiness and profit motive are synonymous and equal "The American Way" I believe is inherently flawed. Happiness comes in many flavors - making money is certainly one. Even the unemployed want / need a source of income to satisfy basic needs. Those that wish to expand their happiness horizons are free to do so in America. That's not possible in may parts of the world.
Honestly, it sounds like the author of this premise has kind of a sour feeling toward America and wants to share it with the world.
Not sure how you got there from this post
but you did an that your opinion
I think it might have been from exactly what you wrote.
Your opinion is that caring "about people" is a sour and un-american? Okay then.
No Evil Vic - Your post said nothing about caring for people. Go ahead, read it again.
What I said was - "The notion that pursuit of happiness and profit motive are synonymous and equal "The American Way" I believe is inherently flawed. "
" the quickest way to happiness is to care more about people than money."
If you would be so kind please share your definition of "pursuit of happiness".
I wouldn't disagree that caring for people is a terrific path to happiness.
Is your life so monothematic? You've strayed far away from your original point (which you often do), about "the biggest concern of the American way".
You want to talk about caring for people? There is no country more charitable than America - none. American citizens gave $360 billion to charity last year. Conservatives typically give about twice as much time and money to charity as progressives. Although, progressives will often remind everyone that they "feel your pain".
You are right
and I apologize
I really don't disagree with
anything you have said here
It seems that my ego was damaged,
not very mature of me
it was damaged
not by your disagreement
with my premise
but by your assertion that
it "honestly, it sounds like the author of this premise has kind of a sour feeling toward America and wants to share it with the world."
I should have articulated my concern
with that statement.
Because your preamble
made a lot of sense to me
For the record
I love the idea of America
and I am happy to claim among it's citizens.
My concern is not with the country,
but its "dream"
as regards my understanding
that "the pursuit of happiness",
(according to many well respected scholars)
implies private ownership
and further, the implication that
the more the wealth the more successful the pursuer.
That is my concern
I am sorry I let your comment regarding my "feelings" taint my response to your otherwise reasonable response to this post.
I appreciate your frank and open apology.
I may be able to help here Vic. I notice you mixing phrases that imply 'the country's dream'. And, that you defer to scholars for interpretation.
But, the American Dream is about the dreams of the individuals in America. The whole point is for the individual to pursue their dream, their happiness.
No doubt some have focused on wealth as their personal measure of happiness. (Personally, I think that is to their own detriment - but, it's their dream, not mine)
Please, let go of what "scholars' are telling you to dream, and dream your own!
I would be interested in
your personal interpretation
of what Jefferson et.al. meant
when they wrote "pursuit of happiness."
and I will warn you
that I plan to earmark your response
as I might need to refer back to it
at some point in the future
That's the really cool thing about the what the founders wrote. It doesn't require a great deal of interpretation. They stated things pretty clearly.
Our rights - life, liberty and the pusuit of happiness - come from God and are unalienable. Our founders stated that we (America) "hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unlienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
Further, the Founders proclaimed: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor" (So, we honored God when we set up the Constitution and trusted Him to protect it.)
Pretty loose quoting there
"Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" not just God but Nature's God that is the God of "nature" not the god of the bible.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator " key piece there as well "with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Still does tell me what you think they meant by "pursuit of happiness"?
Loose quoting? You asked for my thoughts about what I thought the founders meant by "pursuit of happiness"; I told you.
The founders were pretty careful about the words they used. In fact, "pursuit of happiness" wasn't in the Declaration at first. Initially it was a single word - property. I think if they actually meant "Laws of Nature" instead of God - that's what they would have written.
So, what did the founders mean by 'pursuit of happiness? Well, I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with rights to marry a same sex partner. I don't think they meant that we're free to abort our children.
It is instead the “foundation of liberty” because it frees us from enslavement to particular desires. In other words we can pursue a career that interests us for example. That we can support causes that WE want to, instead of government supporting them on our behalf.
I like capitalism money makes the world go around, seems you don't care that the drug trade makes mega dollars for USA and Mexico. I am not into socialism eventually you run out of other peoples money. Try to buy a car on happiness let me know how that goes.
Is that your measure of happiness? Car ownership?
The word; 'Empty-headed' comes to mind -
---definition, lacking intelligence or knowledge; foolish; brainless
I often think "hypocrite"
It gives me a sense of accomplishment if I work hard every day and get a paycheck to save my own money to buy my own car see I own it, and I like to drive always have. But it was an example lost on the evil progressive wealth redistributor. So I see your happiness has not bought you a car.
Last I checked
people can't buy cars
with food stamps
so if they want a car
they need a job
but you see
people without jobs can't buy food
without food stamps
so they starve
and then you can run them over
with your happy car
If one knows how to go about it, they can buy most anything with food stamps...
Or with stolen goods
Or drug money
Or unearned profits
Or usury fee
If people want a sense of self worth; they need a job.
People can't buy a lot of things with food stamps. Just food. That's why they call them food stamps.
You've discovered the lefts little trap - once you get a job, you can't get food stamps. There's no plan to wean people off the stamps. So, they're trapped - sort of like slavery wouldn't you say?
I think you are wrong here
I have worked with folks on
and virtually all of them
want to work.
I have met very few
who are content to live
on the meager handouts
99.99% want a job so they can
(as you say) have sense of self worth
and (mostly) buy more stuff.
It is a right wing conspiracy
that claims people on welfare
are avoiding work.
The reasons they don't work are
as varied as the people themselves
very few of the barriers to
employment are addressed by the
You are disagreeing with something I didn't say. I never said a word about anyone avoiding work. That was all you.
If you work with people in this situation you should know that transitioning to being employed while using food stamps is difficult because making even a pittance can disqualify you from food stamps, and without food-stamps they can't afford housing or transportation or clothing, etc.
If you claim that there is absolutely no misuse of food-stamps, that the program is perfect - then you would be incorrect. I've seen it myself in the grocery store - someone well dressed, driving an expensive care, buying top quality items, using food stamps. How may incidents like that do you suppose it takes to convince a person not on food stamps that the program is misused and corrupt? No one likes getting screwed - even democrats.
And, there is no question that programs like food stamps have democrat hands all over them.
I can't argue with anything you said
All ears for a solution that doesn't involve letting people starve
Well, in addition to all the wonderful programs private groups have and the government has - we could provide more to people that need it if we stopped the phucking cheaters!
If we stopped the military spending we could do even more
Yeah, sure - let's eliminate spending on national defense - the primary duty of the government
Again we agree.
No Sparky, my comment was sarcasm.
How could I tell? By the maniacal emoji?
Vic no answer is going to make you happy, unless it's your answer. The Dream is American and what you dream can be achieved, by hard work, saving money and making money. I do not equate happiness with money, but what I think will make me happy often times takes money to buy. Do I care about people, yes I do and would help anyone who asked me. So your pea brain that equates money with happiness is a far fetched idea.
Bravo. So this does not apply to you.
Also, thanks again
for pointing out my
it is so helpful
to be reminded
by superior folks
such as yourself
that I was born
with a defect.
I have a chronic illness, so let's move on.
strongly agree I never wanted a big house or any of that crap. Just a lot of people who care
So, as long as we 'care' about people - then they don't need any money?
Evil Vic - Are you attempting to mix religion and politics?
I am trying to live
my life the way
I was taught,
with love for
my fellow humans.
I try by:
Then why does it always seem like you want ME to live the same way you claim to? How about you live your life and I'll live mine?
Not sure why you feel that way.
Don't recall ever asking you to change.
I simply pointed out the difference in our approaches to life.
Do you live on your own?
Why? You looking for a new boyfriend?
Humor does not answer the question.