+2

To anyone living in Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, or the United Kingdom.. Would you trade your health care system for the system we have in the United States?

The U.S. spent 17.1 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care in 2013 . This was almost 50 percent more than the next-highest spender (France, 11.6% of GDP) and almost double what was spent in the U.K. (8.8%). U.S. spending per person was equivalent to $9,086 (not adjusted for inflation).

Spending, Use of Services, Prices, and Health in 13 Countries - The Commonwealth FundDespite spending far more on health care than other high-income countries in 2013, Americans had comparatively poor health outcomes, including shorter life expectancy and higher rates of chronic conditions, according to a new Commonwealth Fund analysis.http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspectiveImage for post To anyone living in Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, or the United Kingdom.. Would you trade your health care system for the system we have in the United States?
59%Agree41%Disagree
PhilboydStudges avatar Health, Beauty & Fitness
Share
9 42
This user has deactivated their account.
@2528889

Yes, it all comes down to economics. How do we distribute the costs and benefits of health care? Basing the distribution solely on the laws of supply and demand would put many services out of the reach of millions of Americans. There are a lot of people who could not afford a $75k bypass surgery. And of course the Obama plan has many problems as well (I'll let others list them off if they are so inclined).

@PhilboydStudge Yes, it all comes down to economics. How do we distribute the costs and benefits of health care? Basing the...

Government controlled health care offers no improvement. Before government got involved, people with health insurance, usually through employer could deal with bypass surgery with going bankrupt.

WITH government involved, stupid essential requirements for health insurance, premiums are driven sky high, to a point that many can not afford. Even if they did pay the premiums, they still had virtually no economic protection because their deductibles are so high.

The end result is worse than before government stuck it's nose into matters and the care is certainly worse.

@Budwick Government controlled health care offers no improvement. Before government got involved, people with health...

What I don't understand though is that all the countries listed in the post A) have government-provided healthcare, B) spend less than we do on healthcare, and C) arguably have better results.

@PhilboydStudge What I don't understand though is that all the countries listed in the post A) have government-provided healthcare...

Gosh Phil, maybe there are differences between these countries and our? Maybe it's appropriate to compare countries with large population, cultural, economy, global responsibility differences. And, that's assuming that the rest of your premise is accurate.

This user has deactivated their account.
@2529021

The biggest bs is "it works". Here's the way it works. When most people pay their own medical bills, the doctor sits down with the patient and they discuss options and costs and decide what to do. When most people have insurance, that discussion does not take place. Tests and second opinions that would otherwise have been optional are automatic. The doctor hires more staff to fill out the insurance forms and keep extensive records. The doctor has to have the latest equipment to be sure his diagnoses are legally defensible. Everybody knows the bills are covered, and services are assumed to be competent. All of this, the extra tests, the second opinions, the documentation, the equipment, has to be paid for, and the cost goes on the patient's bill. The insurance company's only concern is that charges are necessary and reasonable.

Please notice that I have not suggested any form of deception. All of this is normal, honest, and unavoidable. Increased medical costs are automatic when most people have insurance.

But normal market forces are still at work. Demand is limitless, but services are scarce. In a normal market, demand is controlled by costs. When that restraint is removed some other method must be found to keep demand equal to supply. One way to limit demand is to make patients wait. When there aren't enough doctors to treat people as fast as they come in, patients must wait. Those that can't or won't wait go away. Travel to a treatment center has the same effect. When the market is controlled by costs, people who really need treatment can get it by paying the cost. When the market is controlled by some other method, individuals are prevented from making their own decisions about what they really need. They can only get treatment by waiting, or by obtaining some sort of official approval or professional reference, that is to say, by political influence.

@SmartAZ The biggest bs is "it works". Here's the way it works. When most people pay their own medical bills, the doctor...

Absolutely. The disconnect between receiving services and paying for those services invites price gouging. To me it seems colleges and universities have a similar business model. The costs are becoming astronomical, but many of the students receive scholarships, awards, grants, etc.. If students (and their parents) had to pay for the entire amount, many would not be able to afford it, so the institutions would lose students. That in turn should drive prices down.

I think the BS you missed is the fact that many people in government owe their positions to the medical industry. If they don't play ball, the next time they're up for re-election they will probably face a well-financed opponent.

I live in USA. I would trade our lame ass Obamacare or the proposed ACA for what we had prior to democrat abomination - free market. Add tort reform and insurance sales across state lines and I think we got a winner.

@Budwick I live in USA. I would trade our lame ass Obamacare or the proposed ACA for what we had prior to democrat...

According to the web site where I got those figures, "These data predate the major insurance provisions of the Affordable Care Act. In 2013, the U.S. spent far more on health care than these other countries".

http://www.commonwealthfund.org...al-perspective

In addition, we have been spending more than other countries on health care (as a % GDP) long before Obamacare was implemented.

Image in content

@PhilboydStudge According to the web site where I got those figures, "These data predate the major insurance provisions of the...

And what we spent before went to healthcare.
Add tort reform and insurance sales across state lines and costs could drop dramatically.

@Budwick And what we spent before went to healthcare. Add tort reform and insurance sales across state lines and costs...

I do not know much about tort reform, but I've heard a lot about frivolous lawsuits and unreasonably large settlements. I agree that this has to drive up health care insurance costs.

I'm not sure how much competition across state lines means either, but I hope you're right.

I suspect a big part of the problem is that these laws are being shaped by the "stakeholders" in the industry.

@PhilboydStudge I do not know much about tort reform, but I've heard a lot about frivolous lawsuits and unreasonably large...

You wrote - "I suspect a big part of the problem is that these laws are being shaped by the "stakeholders" in the industry."

I think that's just one more reason for government to stay out of it.

@PhilboydStudge I would prefer the stakeholders didn't hold sway over our government.

What you are wishing for is contrary to human nature.

Take government out of the equation, let the market decide - competition drives costs down and preferred quality features up. Bad eggs get revealed and driven out of business.

This user has deactivated their account.
@2528881

If the cost of health insurance is covered by taxes, and those taxes are not optional, then the people are indeed being forced to pay for their health insurance.

I agree with your comment regarding Congress. Congress receives a lot of money from health care "stakeholders" (e.g. drug companies, insurance companies, etc). Plus those same industries spend millions on lobbying. A Congressman that refuses to "play ball" with these companies probably faces an uphill battle for re-election.

This user has deactivated their account.
@2529019

I didn't say Obamacare was optional. I was simply pointing out that people in those other countries do not have an option either.

@2528881

I'm pretty sure that was the hidden agenda all along with Obamacare. Democrats knew from the start that Obamacare would fail - a ten year old could study it and see that it wouldn't work. It was designed to fail and then government would swoop in and 'save the day' with universal healthcare. Then we could all look forward to the same 'high quality' health care afforded at the VA.

I promised Budwick, that I will not be politically inclined or involved this time around.

Nevertheless, we have pretty much free health-care system here in Scandinavia. Yes, you have to pay for the ambulance, but surgeries are free for everyone. It doesn't matter, if you are rich or poor, covered with a huge health care plan or just a drunken old yobbo. It's all free.

Why would anyone, as a sane person - that is, want to have any system that is or has been used in the USA? We are doing fine here.

This user has been banned.
@2529122

Thanks for the responding.

Our healthcare companies can burn in hell if they even think of dumping people who cant afford to pay or have pre-existing conditions again.

On another hand, many Clinics are corrupt and force you to pay for things you don't need like "In order to get a flu shot you need a manditory checkup" fuck that shit FUCK YOU CRYSTAL RUN!

@TomboyJanet Our healthcare companies can burn in hell if they even think of dumping people who cant afford to pay or have...

I've heard that some doctors, to protect themselves from lawsuits, will order more services (blood tests, X-Rays, MRIs, etc..) than the situation warrants.

No. Not a chance

"Would you trade your health care system for the system we have in the United States?"

I seem to recall a Canadian politician who did exactly that, at least for one procedure.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/car...syndrome/18279

Of course, being a politician, he could afford the money. biggrin smilie

@Thinkerbell "Would you trade your health care system for the system we have in the United States?" I seem to recall a Canadian...

Examples like this show that other countries' health care systems have problems. Still though, he didn't really trade his healthcare for ours. He just used ours because he could afford it.

@PhilboydStudge Examples like this show that other countries' health care systems have problems. Still though, he didn't really...

He didn't 'just' use it because he could afford it.

He used it because it was a serious operation for which he presumably thought his chances were better with the immediate treatment he would get here. Why else would he spend the money, if he thought the treatment or waiting time in Canada was just as good or better?

@Thinkerbell He didn't 'just' use it because he could afford it. He used it because it was a serious operation for which he...

A valid point. My point was that his actions do not indicate whether he thinks Canada's health care system is better or worse than ours.

@PhilboydStudge A valid point. My point was that his actions do not indicate whether he thinks Canada's health care system is...

And my point was that for the important stuff, he came here, an option not available to the hoi polloi.

I don't doubt that he gets his flu shots in Canada.
biggrin smilie

@PhilboydStudge Nor does he mind paying half as much as we do in the States.

Sure, for the simple stuff.

For the important, life-and-death stuff, he was only too willing to pay US prices.

And as for the prices, take it up with the corrupt politicians that accept donations from big pharma and the AMA.

@PhilboydStudge Nor does he mind paying half as much as we do in the States.

BTW, according to the UN World Health Organization, Canada's healthcare system ranks 30th in the world, while the US is 37, only a little behind Australia (32) and Denmark (34), and a little ahead of New Zealand (41).

http://thepatientfactor.com/can...ealth-systems/

Anonymous