We each have the freedom to choose what we want to believe in, how we act, what we follow, what we agree with or don't agree with throughout our lives. This can be ideology, religion, culture, fashion, morals, etc. Should we, while exercising our freedoms, force others to conform to our choices or not?

This is an area of debate with a very large scope and I am inviting you to consider what I'm putting to you and create a meaningful discussion where we can explore together this topic of free will and the recognition of free will. Where do we as people fall short of this, provide examples, and why? It is something that is troubling me a lot lately as I read articles concerning developments in the USA where Muslims have established their own courts with their own laws. Where Muslims are using the American political systems and freedoms to oppress the freedoms of non Muslims by making demands that prevent others from enjoying their freedoms. Bearing in mind that Americans have lived their way for centuries and facing political and religious objections from the Muslim immigrants. I feel that since they have gone to America, that they ought to practice and follow their own faith and not interfere in how those of other religions or non religious people attend to their lives. I find it greatly oppressive and disrespectful towards the American people. I'm not American, but sympathise tremendously with them. Please share your thoughts as you see things. I'm not looking for simple yes sir no sir, but your thoughts freely shared. No labeling mind, this is not a hate fest, but an intellectual discussion.

0% Yes, punish all non conformers. 100% No, freedom is universal. 0% I'm a fence, facing the sky. 0% Other
JackForbess avatar
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Immigrants to the States are free to speak whatever language they please - though choosing to speak a language other than English might affect one's employability. They can also practice whatever religion they choose.

I feel strongly that people who choose to immigrate to America need to accept and embrace our values. For an example I'll use our freedom of speech. It is a value I hold dearly. We are free to say, write, draw, etc.. anything we choose. If it offends your sensibilities then speak out against it or ignore it and just keep moving. You have that right. No one in America though has the right to "never be offended". If you refuse to accept our freedom of speech, then stay where you are.

As far as the U.S. "promoting" democracy around the world.. it sounds good, and many of us may have the best intentions, but it seldom works out. I feel the U.S. is rather hyper-interventionalistic and would like us to keep our nose out of other peoples' affairs (unless they are being repressed).

PhilboydStudges avatar PhilboydStudge No, freedom is universal. +4Reply
@PhilboydStudge Immigrants to the States are free to speak whatever language they please - though choosing to speak a language...

All good. How will America deal with a political religious doctrine that is essentially Borg in it's objectives?

@JackForbes All good. How will America deal with a political religious doctrine that is essentially Borg in it's objectives?

Good question, and not just one America needs to answer. Many nations in the West have a similar problem with violent Islamic zealots.

What are our options?

Attempt to isolate the Muslim world and keep them out of the West? Not possible. Many of the enemy are already inside the gates, and new converts keep springing up.

Attempt to rid the world of the ideology through violence? That will not work. The ideology would survive the deaths of millions and millions of people.

Stop the spread of the ideology? Any attempt to prevent an idea from spreading would be incongruous with our own values.

In my opinion these people need to be brought through the Age of Enlightenment. Against their will!

Hopefully some of these issues are discussed in Sun Tzu's book, because I do not have an answer.

PhilboydStudges avatar PhilboydStudge No, freedom is universal. +1Reply
@PhilboydStudge Good question, and not just one America needs to answer. Many nations in the West have a similar problem with...

Divide and conquere, this is well underway. The Trojan horses have been sent and with open arms, received. Our very values and constitutions have become our enemy and our achilles heal. However, while I, like you Phil, have no answer. Now we just wait and be ready for what is to come.

People will see that once an aggressive body of people become a vast majority things will become so different.

There will be conflict on every street, in every city, every town across the West. Nobody will be able to help others. Each country will be busy dealing with the militant uprisings in their own countries. I enjoy debates and attempt to pose questions across a wide spectrum from all angles. My actual opinion is to sit back and prepare quietly as the enemy gains in power and strikes. Then and only then will any fight be justified and supported by our governments and courts. Fight them now, we go to jail. Patience! Sympathisers will also fall.

@JackForbes Divide and conquere, this is well underway. The Trojan horses have been sent and with open arms, received. Our very...

I'm less optimistic of a victory than you. I'm not sure a fanatic who is willing to die for his God can be intimidated. And as you know, people are continually being radicalized - people within our own borders. I fear Terrorism might be with us for a long time.

I anticipate vigilantes and non-governmental groups will start taking the fight to the streets, and they will not be very discriminating. Any Muslim could be a target.

I once worked with a Muslim immigrant from Pakistan. Good guy. Before he came to New York he worked in Texas. He has a permanent scar on his chin from being attacked up by some locals who at the time suspected a Muslim was behind the Oklahoma City bombing. (As it turned out the bomber was an alienated white Christian male).

PhilboydStudges avatar PhilboydStudge No, freedom is universal. +1Reply
@PhilboydStudge I'm less optimistic of a victory than you. I'm not sure a fanatic who is willing to die for his God can be...

In the West we have a comfortable lifestyle, we are laid back and have legal, political, religious and social structures that have been developing for centuries. Yes there are still problems with these, but at least we are trying hard to provide a safe environment for all. However, we are so relaxed and naive that we cannot perceive danger when it appears right under our noses.

We all know nice Muslims. Sadly for many their assumptions were shattered when they discovered that the Muslim lady that lived next door to them for 15 years, was friendly and helpful, baking cookies regularly for the neighbours and loved, went and levelled the local school with a rocket launcher. The neighbours ask why? The Muslim lady says, it was my time to serve Allah and attain my place in heaven by killing infidels.

Those Muslims that are involved in the most vicious and sickening acts of bombings, upon investigation, were very well liked and considered by the whole community that knew them as wonderful people, always smiling and friendly. We cannot assume anything by the act they display among us. You can discover something by asking them to condemn some Muslim group or those highly influential Muslims on the most wanted lists. Then watch as they cannot condemn them and when pushed harder, will state that they absolutely believe that all infidels (non Muslims) must die or be assimilated. This is not my opinion, but fact based. Ask Linda Sarsour if she will officially condemn those of ISIS. Ask your local Muslims if they will officially condemn followers of the Wahabi and Salafi groups such as al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram, Taliban, Sipah Sahaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Hizbul Mujahideen to name a few.

If our governments, police or political groups go to far in anything, we damn well speak out in condemnation. It was bad and we condemn them for any bad done. Even football hooligans causing trouble in the name of their football club get condemned by their own supporters. Why? It is because they do not represent their football clubs or football by their hooliganism and are thus brought to justice. If Muslims truly feel that the killing of infidels (non Muslims) is wrong, then why not come out in their numbers and say so, not just the appointed political representatives, but all Muslims can join campaigns to end terror, to fight against those that are not representing Islam, if indeed they are not?

Actions speak louder than words. Those considered as radicals live among us, they have families and friends within the Muslim communities, yet nobody will come forward and call the police. If I were involved with such a serious criminal activity and my family knew, they'd call the police in an instant. That goes for many of us and we couldn't hold them in the wrong, because we were involved in bad things. Hiding them makes you complicitly involved and you are guilty of everything equally.

Victory is not ours, it's not theirs either. Sit back and relax. The people need to see and feel the true reality of the situation. Open the borders and let them come. If you want to unite a people in a common cause, they need to know the cause on a personal level. Open the borders and soon the people will begin to unite and support our governments military activities.

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@2608604

Has the nose of the camel gotten under the tent?

From the Islamic Tribunal website -
Islamic Tribunal (IT)
Article 1
The objective of this Court is to resolve any dispute among Muslims residing in USA while complying with the federal laws of the United States and Texas state laws under the approval of the Texas Judicial system.

Why do they have such a thing? That's what our judicial system is for.

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@2608734

I've never heard of such things.
Lawyers I know about.
OK, if you're sensitive about Muslims - then why do Jews and Christians have 'em?

People should be free to believe anything they want-however unfortunate that might be.In Britain we have laws in place to deal with racist or intolerant Behaviour towards a particular religion.However people who immigrate should fully integrate into the society in which they live -including conforming to the laws of the country in which they chosen to live.I have no idea what is happening in America but here in Britain we have a multi racial society with few problems, at least in my area of South Wales.From the flag I guess you are in Britain.Wonder what it's like in your area?

@ThePrinceofWales People should be free to believe anything they want-however unfortunate that might be.In Britain we have laws in...

Relatively quiet in Scotland. Mostly London I think. The Muslim women don't like pretty British women, they have a nasty habit of throwing acid and melting their faces. Not safe for pretty girls walking alone in London.

@JackForbes Relatively quiet in Scotland. Mostly London I think. The Muslim women don't like pretty British women, they have a...

Jeez! Acid in the face?
It's crap like that - that make me distrust the whole Islamic shtick. I keep hearing over and over that only a small percentage of Muslims are radical - maybe 10% . Even if that's true - that's like 220 million jihadists wanting you and me dead.

Plus, I don't hear a lot of complaining from the remaining 2 billion Muslims - 2 billion! Seems to me that they are a large enough group to get their message out.

But the only message I hear is what a racist piece of crap I am for wanting to at least vigorously vet visitors to America.

Personally, I don't believe Islam is a religion at all! It's actually a political ideology, intent on ruling the world.

@Budwick Jeez! Acid in the face? It's crap like that - that make me distrust the whole Islamic shtick. I keep hearing...

Just like you don't need all Americans to join the military, you don't need all Muslims to join the Islamic military arm. The vast majority of Americans, as with every country are the peaceful majority, because they have their soldiers at home and away defending the masses. This too is Islam, peaceful majority need not take part in the military side of things. The West has killed a lot of radicals over the years in these wars, but hey their numbers are always being replenished. Where do you think they recruit to replenish? The peaceful majority of course. I refer to Islam as a politically motivated religion or politics wrapped in religion that has a Borg assimilation.

@JackForbes Just like you don't need all Americans to join the military, you don't need all Muslims to join the Islamic...

I'm not real fond of your comparison of legitimate military with radical jihadists. Jihadists aren't defending anyone / anything. They are spreading their poisonous ideology by force.

But, I think I get the point.

@Budwick I'm not real fond of your comparison of legitimate military with radical jihadists. Jihadists aren't defending...

Forgive my sloppy explanation. My comparison was this, that when the national military need new recruits they recruit from that majority of non military Americans. When jihadists need to replenish their numbers they recruit from the so called peaceful majority of Muslims. You might know a Muslim neighbour for 15 years, very friendly and kind then one day aiming a rocket launcher at the local school. The so called peaceful majority then are nothing other than sleepers.

@Budwick Understood - and agreed.

Europe took in millions of Muslim immigrants over the past two/three years. Reports state that around 80% of them were young, strong and virulent males, while less than 10% are female, the rest are the old and children. So where are all their women? Their women are unsuspecting Europeans. I believe your President spoke on those stats. Trump is hitting the truth, he knows what's going on and many hate him and think he is a looney tune. Most of our European governments are rolling out the red carpet for them. Votes Budwick, all about votes. When they were arriving in various countries, there were local people taking videos of hundreds and hundreds of them passing through the streets. You can see them attacking white women viciously as they pass. I was sickened at what I was seeing. They don't deny that they want to kill all infedels. Votes worth more than lives. The police are more tolerant of Muslims than they are of Christians objecting to the Islamicist infiltration.

@JackForbes Europe took in millions of Muslim immigrants over the past two/three years. Reports state that around 80% of them...

I agree 100%
I also find it disgusting that this kind of reasoned thought gets good people pilloried (metaphorically) by the left, progressives, globalists, democrats and Muslims.

@JackForbes What has?

You being pilloried. I see hysterical claims of racism.

@Budwick You being pilloried. I see hysterical claims of racism.

I'm sure that she don't mean to aim it at anyone. I'm not racist at all. We have all nationalities here and all religions, but Islam until a few years back. Everybody has got on well. The problems only started when Islamicists began to arrive in hoards. We have a few Christian converts that escaped death in Saudi Arabia. Racism is stomped on hard by the law here. Many people think that religious objection is racism. Race and religion are two entirely different terms.

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@2608675

Racism Tiffanee? I hope not, this is objection against persecution. Not all Arabs are Muslim and not all Muslims are Arab. For those interested in keeping up with the situation across the West, check out Pegida on fb where you get all the facts of the wider picture.

Thank you for this detailed response Gronk. Not being American and knowing anything other than what I gleam from a few YouTube videos, I'm learning here. I'm pleased to have native thoughts on this to help with a greater understanding of the issues in a practical way that supports the theory.

I'm not well versed in American events. If no sharia exists, could it be that they are trying to set them up?

Yes, they are fighting hard to establish Shariah courts.

http://www.billionbibles.org/sh...haria-law.html

I've not heard much negative remarks about arbitration. I believe that the issues concern the attempts to establish Sharia law courts as a clear signal of intent. I'm not saying that they will succeed or that they will not. Knowing that Islam is not just a religion, but a political structure of control set within a religious framework.

Can anyone share in this discussion as to what qualifies a person to become a State governor, a Senator and a President?

As I understand it from my limited knowledge is that religious preference is not a factor that eliminates a persons opportunities.

If there is a political party that is representing Islamic ideals, what's to stop them from acquiring those important political positions such as Governor, Senator and President if they have also several generations of American citizenship?

The long term goal of Islam is known and Muslims won't go to war with Muslim controlled countries. They seek to acquire nuclear knowledge and American military positioning globally of submarines, etc. What is stopping a President that is Muslim, who will absolute access to everything, from sharing with their close Middle Eastern brothers and mentors? An Imam, of which there are thousands, each have the same power and authority over Muslim followers as the Pope has within the Catholic church. When an Imam says it is time to serve Allah and this or that, they must obey. A muslin President that is not an Imam must obey his Imams.

A president has total power and if he has no opposition from his fellow Muslim party members, what then, enter Shariah law?

What in the American constitution, law or regulation can prevent a Muslim political party from becoming the Government?

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@2609474

Not replying to you Bozette. It's meant for the general thread.

@2609474

Bozette. I am well aware of the conflict between sunni and Shia. Certainly I see that Google is your friend. What you need to do is visit any country ruled by Muslims and you will, like I have, discover certain truths that you are reluctant to admit. The missionary work, sent to help feed, provide medical aid, blankets, etc. At no time were we to preach to them, but to worship in private. Several of my brothers and sisters were taken, tortured, degraded, tried privately and executed in accordance with Sharia law which is based on the Hadith of Muhammad. Not taken by locals, extremists or any Wahabi or Salafi groups, but under the authority of the Sharia courts and Saudi royal family. Let the Muslims of the West condemn these actions of the Saudi government. Will they? Your holier than though attitude does not impress anyone. However, I do realise that Muslims and Islamic sympathisers are likely to he here. The question posed at the top, concerns whether we ought to force our own choices upon others. If I choose Christianity and I want to stand in the street and preach the Good News about Jesus, the Son of God to attract those that do want to listen, then I'll do it. If you don't like that, then tough. The message is more for you than anyone else, whether you realise it or not. I wouldn't choose to pursue you down the street if you kept walking, my time is better invested with those that are drawn by the Spirit. Christianity does not force anyone, sadly not all Christians understand this. If Muslims want to preach on the streets too, I'm OK with that. I'm more interested in choosing my God Abba Yahweh and serving Him. I'm not instructed in scripture to force anyone or use violence or strength against those that choose to say no. Preaching the word verbally is one part of what being a Christian is, but the biggest part is actually living the Word. It is my choice and the cross is an integral symbol of our Jesus, the Son of God that died for all iniquity and thus gave us life. Nobody ought to stop me or even try to stop me from serving my God. Why do Muslims wear Hijab? Is it a problem? I don't care why and it's not a problem. If they choose Allah, then let them, just don't try and force Allah upon me. I won't force my God upon them. Mutual respect of one's freedom.

@2609474

Also, thank you for the layman's basic explanation of the American political system.

I as a Christian am not welcome in either Saudi or Iran. Both execute infidels (non Muslims). Saudi Arabia has a multi-billion dollar investment in the Western economy. They are helping the Western effort in the Middle East, yet still killing Westerners in Saudi based on faith.

@2609474

For as long as non Muslim Americans remain in the majority, your constitution and legal system has power. When Muslims outnumber non Muslims 10-1, there is nothing the minority can do about it when they take over and change the lot. 🙌

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@2609876

I serve where I'm asked to serve. Part of the mission was delivering bibles to Christian converts that worship underground in secret. What is your point Bozette? You haven't seen 0.000000001% of all things, just as I've not. I have experienced things that the media won't report. I talk only from my own experience. An opinion is not based on fact, it's not logical at the best of times, it's not some academic exercise, but simply the formulation of feelings and thoughts gathered from personal experiences. What is true for one, may never be true for another simply because we each travel a different journey though life and hold the unique position that we occupy. Our upbringing, culture, media agendas, education, etc shape our minds in order to produce functional and productive members of a economical machine. Breaking from what is widely accepted and challenging everything that we've ever been told is true leads us into strange and crazy situations. We experience life and form opinions based on these experiences, reaching conclusions that may be accepted or rejected by others, but they are precisely how the individual has perceived them. For just a moment if you could actually be another person in every way, then at least we could say 'I understand why this person believes this or that, why they claim this or that.' That would be an exciting thing, even scary perhaps. The West, especially America are powerful and extremely advanced in many ways. No country outwith the nuclear powers can seriously harm America, so conventional and nuclear war is not possible. Nuclear superpowers are more equipped to wage conventional war on each other, but that nuclear deterrent works in preventing all out war and mutually assured destruction. The enemies of the West are technologically less advanced. The weak foes fight by any means they can, little by little, from within winning sympathy as victims. War has been evolving for centuries, so too have strategies. We are now in an age of where war is waged politically, educationally, economically, by small destructive acts that kill more of the enemy than martyrs lost.

We may never see a change of powers in our lifetime, but we are outnumbered.

Muslims multiplying faster than Westerners.
More Westerners being killed than martyrs dying. Over a prolonged period of time, the there will be more Muslims than Westerners in the West.

I hope I'm wrong, I will rejoice if I'm wrong. There is no knowledge available in the world at present that can prove me correct or wrong. It's my opinion, based on many many many things observed and experienced over many years. It just appears to be a lot of very good tactical movements that come together in my mind as brilliant strategy. I want to be wrong, I search for more so that I can be disproven, because this, if true, is the stuff of nightmares.

Too bad liberals do not understand this

Anonymousmouses avatar Anonymousmouse No, freedom is universal. -1Reply
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