Still waiting here.... like I usually do, until the facts (not allegations) are all in and he is tried. Is he guilty? I don't know. Neither does anyone else here. Some say he isn't some say he is and some hope he is.
No trial will be had. It's way past time for that.
Just what "facts" are you waiting for, Jim? Pictures, reports from a gynecologist, or therapist? His confession?
What would it take to convince you? 31 sources instead of 30? Seven women, instead of six?
You demanded no less when it came to accusations about Bill, or later Hillary's activities.
How do you know what I supposedly "demanded"?
I remember your comments from SH...<s> That's how we got to know each other... and learned how to agree to disagree.... :)
I don't remember anything regarding Bill Clinton, just a lot of defending Obama.
Yes, we did. :)
Hell Dru, we disagreed on almost everything..... except animals...:)
This is how all discussions should wind down, here.
I don't like the fact that accusations alone can torpedo a person's chances of being elected.
That being said, I heard parts of the interview he had with Sean Hannity. Hannity seemed to be trying to help Moore clear his name, but Moore's responses were weak.
HANNITY: At that time in your life, let me ask you this you do remember these girls would it be unusual for you as a 32-year-old guy to have dated a woman as young as 17? That would be a 15 year difference or a girl 18. Do you remember dating girls that young at that time?
MOORE: Not generally, no. If did, you know, I'm not going to dispute anything but I don't remember anything like that.
If Moore would have responded the way 99% of us would have, that he never dated any woman that young when he was in my 30s.. that he simply would never do that because it is wrong.. I would have sympathy for him.
I'm amazed that we have all these politicians who can't recall or remember so much about themselves running the country. It's like mass Alzheimers.
A flat denial.
I think there is too many that can point to him.
Funny...the amnesia politicians seem to suffer from.
Politics must be traumatic...
It's almost comical when you look at it Carla. The politicians (On all sides), ALL seem to have amnesia when questioned about incidents or behavior, but they have no problems with their memories when they write their "tell all" books.
Thats right. Selective memory.
Doesnt matter ones politics, put a bit of power in certain peoples hands, and they feel as though they can do anything. Like grab women by the p***y. Cause you're a star:(. Or feel okay about jerking off into a plant, with a strange women watching. Or drug and rape them. Or just say crude sexual things. It is all, very creepy.
I am loving these women and men that are speaking out. Maybe the culture is finally changing.
One thing I'd like to see happen with allegations of rape, is for the person making the claim, to take a polygraph. You know how much I hate sexual predators, but something I hate even more, are those who make accusations that are false. (I'm not talking about Moore or the women accusing him) How many times have we read about big cases where a woman yelled rape and later, the proof came out that there wasn't any rape. Meanwhile, a persons reputation, career and future, are ruined. Nothing happens to the person who lied. Sometimes this is just done as an extortion scheme. It would be a nice world, if we could take everyone at their word Carla, but sadly, we know we don't live in that kind of world.
Oh...you're right. There are people who have abused the system. But they are far fewer than the ones who have had horrible experiences. Many that never say a word.
I would have difficulty seeing a victim of rape or abuse put through a polygraph. It is difficult enough for them to come forward as it is. Many for fear of not being believed.
How long did it take for the law to recognize that a husband can indeed rape his wife?
College and universities that keep rape quiet, to protect athletes and people of privilege?
How many men, and women, for that matter, truly think that women "ask for it". I know you have met people like that. I certainly have.
I reckon that is what a judge and jury is for.
I hope this trend of people speaking out will make those that abuse and harrass, think twice. And encourage more people who are dealing with it to come forward. Not looking for money, but to stop other people from suffering through the same ordeal. Before time limitations eliminate the process.
And i know the world is full of liars and cheats, jim. I just hate that it is.
I don't think going through a poly is as bad as you think Carla. (I've been through many) It would be only 3 or 4 questions plus a few questions to establish a baseline, and in a comfortable, non-threatening setting. It's a double edged sword in some ways. You think some wouldn't want to go through it. I think that some women would want to go through it who are afraid they wouldn't be believed if they reported it. It would give validity to "opening" an investigation. It would also cut down on false accusations.
I dont know, jim.
I do know that there must be a good reason for deeming test results, not admissable.
How would it be for someone to have a legitimate case, and for some unexplainable, technological anomaly, they failed that test?
I dont believe people who are victims of muggings, stranger rape, stalking, etc., are required to take polygraphs. If those victims can identify their assailants, then they could be involved in a frame up, too.
And to throw a little female realism into the picture....
All areas arent created equal. I cant imagine the way that kind of allowed, even required, interrogation would go, in places where the rules are made by men.
You know where im going with that.....
The Supreme Court deemed polys are not admissible.... as decided by lower courts. (In some courts they are and some not)
There are ways to go through a poly to make the results inconclusive, but that is pretty rare when it's done by a "willing" subject.
I agree that doing a poly on most cases is not feasible. (There isn't enough time or qualified people to give polygraphs for that)I just see it as a tool that isn't being used as often as it could be. While I wouldn't want a poly to be accepted as conclusive evidence, I just see it as a tool to determine if further investigation is warranted. Did you know that people associated with the Department of Defense, including military, who are granted access to certain levels of classified information are ALL subject to a random poly?
As to the rules.... I'm open to women developing the kind of questions.... women administering the test to women, and even making the test voluntary, (with the understanding that the credibility of the accusation needs closer scrutiny if a poly is refused.)
With new evidence, it's impossible to support Moore any longer.
I must add however that the timing of all this is highly suspect. Moore's political career is ruined - he's toast. Statute of limitations prevents a trial so he will never be cleared or convicted. But, what of the accusations? If they're made up, untrue - THAT should be a crime too.
Well, you write "with new evidence." If there's evidence, then it's not mere accusations and if it's fact, then ruining his career is a minor inconvenience.
Libel and slander.
People who are running for federal office are far more likely to be scrutinized. From what i have heard the wp just chased a story.
John edwards, gary hart. Stuff comes out when the press becomes interested.
You are right Carla. The list is pretty long but it's a list you can look at and see who has real power. The ones NOT on the list of being excommunicated from politics after getting caught with their fingers in the cookie jar are the scary ones.
He couldn't deny dating minor girls when he was in his 30's .... that alone disqualifies him in my book. I believe he should step aside. If he truly wants to challenge the many allegations, he can work on clearing his name without the distraction of an election.
Jan, The whole thing of older guys dating young women has always been a bit creepy to me. On one hand, it's been made to look normal though by Hollywood and among the rich or powerful. (look at all the movies, especially from our generation where the leading man was in his 30's or 40's and the subject of his affections was 18.) It's almost "expected" that an "old" movie star (male or female) will have a young "partner". Look at all the teachers in recent years, (mostly women) who have had affairs with Jr High boys.
It's a disturbing world out there Jan.
It is, jim. But...18 is an adult. 14, 15, 16...not so much.
And the teacher thing really isnt mostly women. They are the ones that get the press. There have been 3 or 4 male teachers that have been nabbed around here over the last few years. Both messing with students and possessing and reposting child pornography.
Remember back when.... no... you can't.. you aren't old enough..<s> Back about 50 years ago, you heard of male teachers and female students now and then but I never heard of the situations reversed until probably 20 years ago. What has changed in the teacher student sexual relationships over the past couple decades (from what I've seen) is that today, these relationships are viewed by the adults as long term love relationships.
I know that 18 is not 14 or 15 but it's close enough to 17 that many don't see much difference. There are also movements out there that say there should be nothing wrong with sexual relationships between between adults and 16 year old kids. (This is in both the straight as well as the gay communities.)
Adults being involved with kids has always just made my skin crawl Carla.
A 16 year old kid, is just that. Even if they dont think they are. I cannot fathom how a 30 something person could find any mental commonality with someone that young. You know it's all about the sexual aspect of the relationship. And usually, the young, usually female, gets replaced by a new model as soon as they loose that very youthful appearance.
Yes...crawling skin, even as we speak.
Yep. This would have never flown, 4 short years ago.
He's a pathetic peice of shit. I am 64 years old and I can tell you for an absolute fact that when I was 30 I did not ever date a woman less than 27 years old. To say he doesn't remember is total bullshit! JMHO
Yes, it is.
People are speaking out.
And if his warped followers vote him in, the senate is going to have him, rather speedily, removed.
Accusations and fact are two different things. And after hearing him in a live interview... I have to say on this one, my female intuition is leaning towards guilty.
I'm telling you there should be a bingo book about this.
Yeah, a book of men who you think might be next. Like this.
Put an x on trump. He had plenty come out to tell tails of his unwanted attention. He even kind of outed himself.
Bingo book. Great description.
I didnt make it though
I know sunny...figurativly:]
The Post story was well investigated. The women's words ring true, while his denials are pitiful.
However, I believe in letting the process work . Only the people of Alabama should decide, and I believe they will pleasantly surprise you.
With bandwagon journalism, everyone involved is lying in some way, shape, or form.
Maybe not everyone...
"bandwagon journalism" - I like that! So true. Good descriptive.
May I use that?
Sure. its true.
I heard that this race generally pulls a small percentage of voters. This kind of controversy just might bring out a far higher percentage. And, i think you're right. Might be a nice surprise.
I think if moore stays in, which i think he will, it will cause enough republicans to do write in votes. That will split the numbers and maybe jones will end up with the win.
Im not sure the right will let that fly.
The right may have no choice in this matter. If Moore gets elected, they face backlash in 18. If they interfere they will face backlash from Bannon and his freak show.
I am going to sit back, with popcorn, and enjoy.
I am here with you, dru.
I like butter, and plenty of salt, please:)
Nothing better than watching a movie of self destruction.
You got it.
If you're on Roy Moore's side you're gross, if you think he should still run for any form of office, you're absolutely horrible.
This guy is a pervert, child molester, and should be shown the door ASAP.
It's pretty bad when someone is banned/on the watch list at a Mall. Geez!
What's sad is the evangelicals, who are supposed to be so family oriented, good morals, continue to still support this guy. Wonder if it would be OK with them if he dated their 14 year old daughters? Pathetic.
Hey, starzy baby:)
His supporters say if god has fogiven him, then as christians, they must. But its a far cry between forgiving and making him a lawmaker.
I doubt any of them would be saying that if it was their 14 year old daughters.
Seems to be a small community, it very well may have been. How many have kept their secrets?
More are coming out each day. It's pretty bad when a guy gets banned from a mall. He must have been very aggressive going after those little girls. Shame on him.
Shame on them all.
Now it's franken.
I know, wonder how many women will come out against him? If Franken gets booted out of the Senate, then Trump needs to be booted out of the presidency.
I dont know how that will play out. He apologized, apology was accepted. Still doesnt dismiss the fact that he did what he did.
At least he admitted it and apologized, but what he did was tame to what Trump has done and Roy Moore has done. Many women have accused both of those guys, and only one so far for Franken. I just don't understand some men....
It seems to me that most here are 'convicting' Moore based on the girl's ages. Most of us do not approve of grown men dating teenage girls and automatically assume the worst about such a man. I don't know what happened, nor do you or anyone else weighing in on this post or in the court of public opinion.
I don't TV, so correct me if I have this wrong: a gal who had been 14 at the time accused him of dating and touching with no force, followed by the same from three more aged 16-18, and now a gal who was 16 claims force...do I have that correct? Many seemed willing to hold off judgement until more was known...until this last accusation, which included the claim of force. I am finding it a bit difficult to wrap my mind around a horny 30-something man, alone in his home with half-dressed, under-the-influence teens who are allowing him to touch them sexually never getting forceful with them, yet doing so with a gal he was just giving a ride to.
I'll also add a personal experience of my own. The summer I was sixteen, unbeknownst to my family, I dated a 28 year-old man. The situation was quite similar in that we spent time alone together, had a certain amount of intimate contact without ever having sex, and drinking was involved. Nothing that happened was without my consent, and I have nothing but fond memories of him to this day. He was far more respectful and showed far more restraint than the fumbling and pushy teenage boys I knew...and I could easily have ruined his life and landed him in the ER.
Now Moore might be guilty or he might not...I am simply not in a position to judge.
Do you feel same way about bill cosby?
As I said, Carla, I don't TV, nor do I know the details of the accusations against Cosby. I have been consistent in my response to such accusations, regardless of whether the accused is from the left or right politically, however (see link). You see, I do not base my opinions of guilt/innocence or right/wrong upon what a person's political leanings are.
I appreciate your consistency, bo.
I missed that post, the poster had me blocked.
But three friends goofing off is a very far cry from creepy, lecherous behavior. By anyone.....anyone.
I will tell you, i am firmly opposed to any person taking sexual advantage in any way. Doesnt matter who that person is. And yes, that includes bill clinton. If his antics had been discovered before his wins, he would never made it into office.
I don't believe I specifically addressed the part about Ellen in my response to that post, other than to say that men are responsible for that particular double standard being allowed to flourish. I will do so now, though, since you bring that up despite it not having anything to do with either our conversation here or my response there, which was the obvious purpose of my link. If women - whether gay, straight, asexual or whatever they may decide to identify as, do not wish men to objectify them, then I would suggest the women quit objectifying themselves and each other.
Hard to say in retrospect what would have happened as the American public has the attention span of a hyperactive acidhead on a bad trip. And while sexual misconduct of whatever flavor is the most horrid offense conceivable at the moment, it has often been brushed aside in pursuit of other shiny objects scattered about by the media, politicians, and the ever-vociferous moral watchdogs among our celebrated and elite. At any rate, my statements on the subject, with the exception of my comment specific to the judge's case above, have been generic and all-encompassing, regardless of political persuasion...and I won't defend one person's bad behavior by citing another's as 'justification'.
You may believe Moore guilty. Others believe him innocent. I simply do not know. I do know that sometimes girls/women do not speak up at the time, for various reasons, but do so later. And that sometimes women acquiesce for personal gain, then later claim rape. I also know that women sometimes make false accusations that ruin careers, marriages...lives, also for various reasons. If you are in possession of some crystal ball that shows the truth...unvarnished by 10, 20, 30, 40 years passage of time and all the tweakages our minds are capable of, and unbiased with regard to gender, politics, etc., then please, share this new wonder with the world, Carla, so that the guilty may pay and the innocent be freed from accusation...we could end up with a serious housecleaning in both DC and Hollywood. In the mean time, it most often boils down to 'she said/he said' and which each of us believe. I do not personally feel I have enough to go on to make such a judgement.
I have no crystal ball, bo.
My opinion of Roy Moore was extremely low before the allegations arose, but when they did, they did not surprise me, because often I find that those who pursue a form of far-right moral rectitude suffer from "protest too much"-syndrome and are concealing vices of their own. The more the story progresses, the more guilty he seems. But it's not his guilt that bothers me as much as it is those who are determined to sell out their morals for political gain. Those who say that they would still support Roy Moore even if he was guilty because "at least he's better than a Democrat". These are the types of people who will destroy the nation.
Good to see you thibault:)
Well spoken, as always.
Good to see you too :)
I appreciate your honesty.