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OK I'll say it, it is all men. If you say 'no' we should respect that and stop trying. If we try again after you said no, you have permission to be pissed off. But you can't blame us for trying and if you don't say 'no' -it's not fair to bring it up 20 years later.

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VicZincs avatar
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Not all men, vic.
Have you ever been groped, unwantingly, by an aggressive lesbian?
I have.

People dont always ask...

@Carla Not all men, vic. Have you ever been groped, unwantingly, by an aggressive lesbian? I have. People dont always ask...

Carla, while I see where you are coming from, back in my college days 200 years ago, if I was out with a woman, and didn't try the old accidentally brush my hand against her breast at some time while we were kissing, she'd have been either happy that she thought I respected her, angry that I was so dull witted as to not see that she wanted me to, or that I was secretly gay. It's not easy being a guy sometimes. <s> If I'd asked her if I could touch her breasts... that "moment" would be gone forever. <s>
I'm not talking about walking into a room, scoping out the women, walking over to one, grabbing a breast and saying, "nice shoes, wanna screw??"

@JustJimColo Carla, while I see where you are coming from, back in my college days 200 years ago, if I was out with a woman, and...

Being on a date, making out..all that is different. It is when a person bulls their way in, without permission. Being grabbed and groped, it happens more than any one cares to admit.

@Carla Being on a date, making out..all that is different. It is when a person bulls their way in, without permission...

I know it happens. I'm old, and have never done it, or even thought of doing it, in my life. (well that's not entirely true.. I thought about it as an adolescent 13 year old when looking at the head cheerleader, who was a senior, back in HS, but that's about it)
I did get groped by a a guys wife under the table at a dinner I attended once with about 20 people. Scared the hell out of me, because I didn't know what to do.

@JustJimColo I know it happens. I'm old, and have never done it, or even thought of doing it, in my life. (well that's not...

As i said, it isnt just men.
I could never try something such as that. It isnt in my wheelhouse to intentionally put someone in that kind of position.
But....many have no problem with it.
Lack of an off switch, i reckon

@Carla Being on a date, making out..all that is different. It is when a person bulls their way in, without permission...

I understand where you're coming from Carla. I have had that happen to me by strangers and it really wasn't nice at all, especially at work.

@Carla No...not a compliment. Not nice.

I was a drink waiter in a high class restaurant when I was 19 and i nearly lost my job over it. So unfair.

@OzSurfer I was a drink waiter in a high class restaurant when I was 19 and i nearly lost my job over it. So unfair.

It's never about sex. It's about power and control. And it is not an exclusive, mens only club.

@Carla It's never about sex. It's about power and control. And it is not an exclusive, mens only club.

At the time I thought it was just a group of drunk women acting like guys but as you said, maybe it was about power and control? What was more upsetting was, that when I reported it to my boss he said to me, are you gay? and i said... well no.. and he said.. well you've got nothing to worry about, get back to work :(

@OzSurfer At the time I thought it was just a group of drunk women acting like guys but as you said, maybe it was about power...

Pathetic. Not all men are dogs, dallas.you and others here are proof of that. And all women are not in perpetual heat. Im glad you got through it and maintained your integrity.

@Carla Pathetic. Not all men are dogs, dallas.you and others here are proof of that. And all women are not in perpetual...

Thanks Carla I appreciate that. At the time when I was groped I accidentally tipped a tray full of drinks onto the friend of the person who groped me who was having her 60th birthday party. I was so embarrassed I thought I was going to die and I needed some support from somewhere but I got none. I ended up quitting my job soon after and getting an office job. When I have mentioned this to a lot of males at the time they thought it was hilarious and I should have enjoyed it, but I just don't understand why. It did make me think how girls felt who were groped a lot like that in their jobs .. much more than I was.

@OzSurfer Thanks Carla I appreciate that. At the time when I was groped I accidentally tipped a tray full of drinks onto the...

It certainly happens to women more often. But, then, more men are in those more powerful positions. Even if it is the women at an electrical contractors office, for example. Women in those positions deal with crap, often.
But that doesnt make your experience any less traumatic and valid. If nothing else, cause mistrust of others in those same positions. Can induce people to become very cynical.

@JustJimColo Carla, while I see where you are coming from, back in my college days 200 years ago, if I was out with a woman, and...

This is such a great comment Jim, I have been in just those situations many times when I was in my 20's and I never did seem to get it right. You really explained it perfectly, you have to some how just know how far to go, or not to go when your on a date or you'll be considered either boring or maybe gay for not going far enough, or not respecting her for trying to go further. For me it always worked best when the girl took the lead which was hardly ever.

You can see why I love a stable long term relationship. I mean who would want to sign up for what we've just described eek smilie

@Carla Not all men, vic. Have you ever been groped, unwantingly, by an aggressive lesbian? I have. People dont always ask...

I hear you and I am not talking about groping just making a move in whatever form that takes.

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@2693358

Well said. That's what I was trying to say, exactly.

@VicZinc Well said. That's what I was trying to say, exactly.

You also said the victim would "have permission to be pissed off"; no one needs "permission to be pissed" ever, and especially not after being victimized a second time!

@2693358

You aren't taking into account coerced consent when a man or group of them intimidate women into complying if they don't go along with them for sex out of fear for their well-being or loss of life; that happens everyday, throughout the world.

@PartyOfOne You aren't taking into account coerced consent when a man or group of them intimidate women into complying if they...

I would submit that consent cannot be coerced. The victim might say the word "yes" and still not consent - it is a sticky wicket on both sides. How can we know what either party intended or believed in their hearts?

No, I don't believe it is all men....just some jerks.... No, I have never been groped, but if I had I would have handled it ASAP and made sure it never happened again. I've been flirted with and even asked out on a date by some guys who knew I was married..... all it took was...."I'm happily married, buzz off." And that ended it.

But when you're a teenager you're not so sure as to what to do. I can see why they didn't come forth when they were young. He was a powerful man, and he could have ruined their lives Now it's their turn to turn the tables on this pedophile.

@VicZinc OK all I am saying is if they say no, the man needs to stop and never try again.

No, that's not all you said.

You also said, "...and if you don't say 'no' -it's not fair to bring it up 20 years later."

You overlooked the intimidation factor.

@Thinkerbell No, that's not all you said. You also said, "...and if you don't say 'no' -it's not fair to bring it up 20...

I did. I understand that some people are too shy/timid/inexperienced to say no. I think we need to train our children (daughters and sons) to say "NO", and to say it loud and clear without shame.

Now answer me this: if the advance was
-age appropriate
-neither party said 'no'
-both people were conscious
-no one was held against their will
-no one pushed back
-both people smiled afterwards
How is it fair to bring it up 20 years later as unwanted attention?

@VicZinc I did. I understand that some people are too shy/timid/inexperienced to say no. I think we need to train our...

Of course it isn't fair to bring it up 20 years later if it was in fact truly consensual.

And by truly consensual, I mean there was no coercion of any kind, e.g., loss of job, etc., either expressed or implied.

Men have got to learn no means no and if you don't like it go try someone who will say yes. Or just pay a business transaction only that way.

Many females, especially if they are young, are too intimidated to say "no".

My advice? Everyone, just keep your hands to yourself, and there should not be any problems.

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@2693294

All men try. Some more crudely than others. If we didn't try there would be no babies.

When a man tries crudely and is rejected he needs to move on, and perhaps refine his technic

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@2693375

Good for him.
Yes! If the girl says no, it means no.
Can't blame the guy for trying (unless she's a child). But after he gets shut down he has to stop.

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@2693840

I'd never heard of Lena Dunham before so I looked her up. For what it's worth, she did issue an apology. I know. Whatever. smile smilie

I have done things, that I'm not very proud of. When I was younger and really drunk, I might have groped a bit. I admit this freely and without any outside pressure, because I know it's wrong. And I'm sorry, but sexuality and the drive behind it are sometimes a bit strong on the weaker individuals, such as myself. So, yes, I have acted like an idiot, but as I've grown older, I have tried to become more civilized, which is something that Trump wouldn't understand. Sorry, couldn't say "no" to the opportunity to comment on him. It's none of my business, since I'm a foreigner.

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@2693525

GUN - Great idea, probably the women today would be good with that - me on the other hand, I wait for a guy to make the first move, BUT YES men can learn to ask and tell the lady it is up to her. Now that will make an immature person angry to know they aren't going to get what they want immediately .sry smilie

@2693525

I agree.

SILENCE IS NOT CONSENT. Please for the love of all that is holy understand that fact.

Trishs avatar Trish Disagree +3Reply
@Trish SILENCE IS NOT CONSENT. Please for the love of all that is holy understand that fact.

Trish, I don't condone any unwanted advances - but please understand that there has to be a first attempt. No is a valid response, and I for one will walk away at the first no.

Just say no. And teach your wives and sisters and daughters to say no. Silence sometimes means yes.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

Simply consider the situation before making any advances to anyone. You're the one initiating contact it's not the other person's responsibility to make sure you react appropriately.

And who would have ever thought this rule would be necessary, but apparently now it is.

Don't ever masturbate into a potted plant!

EVER!

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@2693443

Maybe JD. Or maybe they have been carrying the burden for years and now feel safe letting it out. Either way I agree that touching another person without permission crosses some line. Do it twice and it is clearly assault, even if it is two different women. In my heart I have to give a pass to the first time a guy does it to the first girl as an awkward learning experience. If he doesn't learn, shame on him.

Women (girls) should be taught from an early age to say "no". "I don't like that", "Stop it!" Say it loud and say it clear.

The thing is Vic no one can say what exactly happened years ago. Hell I don't even remember what I ate 10 days ago. For some reason society has decided to believe any coming sexual abuse / misconduct cases no matter the details. The penis is both a gift and a curse.

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