I don't see any reason to expel transgender people from military services - BUT I don't think it is a good use of taxpayer dollars to pay for gender change procedures.
Right about that it shouldn't matter what they are or were as military takes both men and women. I was watching a documentary that said it is troublesome on a submarine because there is no room for 3 different gender bathrooms. jeesh..same thing withe convicts, seems taxpayers get roped into paying for their foolishness as well. Isn't prison supposed to be horrible and teach criminals a lesson by making them suffer while in jail??
Your two statements present a conflict, Lorraine. The two most important requirements to serve in our military are being both physically and mentally fit. I'll likely, per usual, raise the ire in folks on both sides of the issue, but here's why:
Unless and until transgenderism receives broad acceptance from society, and not simply in a "whatever floats your boat" type of acceptance, but as a normal and natural occurrence for some, there will be issues transgenders struggle with regarding acceptance at the least. This may manifest as depression, anger, lack of self-confidence, or a mixture thereof, and may include other factors as well. The three specified are of major import in our troops, particularly since we engage in never-ending wars. Even among mentally healthy recruits, the situations they are placed in, especially those in war zones, can have profound impact on their psyches. Sucides are already higher among vets than in the general population. A 2008 survey found that 41% of transgenders surveyed had made at least one suicide attempt.
While transgenderism itself is largely considered a medical issue now, gender dysphoria is diagnosable in the DSM V due to distress at the mismatch between their identities and their bodies, as well as increased complications from problems functioning at work, other mental disorders, depression, and suicidal tendencies. Now sex-reassignment surgery(ies) may alleviate these in some, but it is not guaranteed to do so, and will likely involve further and possibly lengthy psychological/psychiatric treatment, as well as ongoing hormone treatments. The first two are both time consuming and costly. Not paying for surgery, when it is both medically indicated and desired, will most likely result in sub-par troops who probably cannot afford the surgery/treatments on their own and could put others in danger, both civilian and military.
According to a study published in February of last year that I found on the NIH website, the estimated number of transgenders in the general population, if applied to the total number serving in our active-duty military or our military and our reserves puts the possible number of transgenders in our services between 5,000-8,000+. Now I find that estimate to be high, but I really have nothing factual to base that on, and maybe there are a lot who struggle silently with this, I simply don't know. Using those recently available estimates, though, this could conceivably be a serious and costly issue for our military...in dollars, time, and lives.
An important aspect of this argument, and one I have never seen addressed, is that regulations are routinely subject to VSL (value of a statistical life) cost/benefit analyses before implementation. This is SOP across governmental agencies. In other words, if it costs more to implement the regulation than the value given to a life x the number of lives it is estimated the regulation would save...it is not adopted. Pragmatism rules in this one area of our government.
Now I am not saying that transgenders cannot be fit to serve, mentally as well as physically. I just think this is too important and costly (in $, safety, and time invested in each and every troop even before transgender issues come into play, as well as after) an issue to be determined without a valid cost/benefit analysis that does not take discrimination into consideration. Discrimination simply has no place in such an analysis.
"In other words, if it costs more to implement the regulation than the value given to a life x the number of lives it is estimated the regulation would save...it is not adopted."
Sounds like the "not being worth the cost or trouble to do this," scenario.
Again, why do we even have to know anyone's choices/desires? Just do the job, soldier or anyone else.
ozzy- I agree just do your job and nobody will bother you. That is my thought on many of the issues about sexual differences. How is anyone going to know what you do at home if you just leave it at home. But oh no people gotta yap yap about themselves and bring un needed attention to themselves. What did they expect to happen? Any pervert can do what they want like whips chains swinging lifestyle and nobody will care if they just keep i t to themselves
I would agree if there are no questions about their mental fitness, Ozzy, but apparently that is a rather large aspect with transgenders. It's not just a matter of who they are attracted to, but of literally feeling as if they do not belong in the body they are born with. As I cited above, 41% in one survey admitted they had attempted suicide at least once. People who may be suicidal, depressed, or mentally unstable do not belong in combat situations, positions that those in combat rely upon or take orders from, or frankly imo, in the military at all.
No one knows the mental stability of anyone and most will not talk about it. I know of suicidal people who followed through and it had nothing to do with sexuality.
How many have had suicide cross their minds in a painful, weak moment? 41% would be fairly low, IMHO.
With absolute certainty, no, but there is screening and flags to watch for. That wasn't 41% who had a fleeting thought in a moment of weakness, Ozzy, but actual attempts, and multiple attempts for some of them.
Again, Ozzy, transgenderism is not about sexuality, but core identity.
I am against trans being in the military. The sole purpose of a military is to fight wars, not be a test bed for social experiments. A soldier should be ready to go to war after 10 weeks of basic training and 10 - 20 weeks of advanced training. A soldier should be able to serve for about 2 1/2 years, after training on a 3 year enlistment.
That's not going to happen when a person goes into the military with their sole purpose being getting a sex change. Between the surgery, therapy, psychological testing, adjusting to a new body, more therapy and hormone therapy, a typical person going through all this will not "serve", at all. They will not be physically or mentally fit for combat. (That's just a fact) Meanwhile, all this is done on the taxpayer dime.
How many here, who have served, wants to go into combat, or serve with a person who is experiencing 2 - 3 years of menopause?
3 years menopause - now that isn't always the case. It never did a thing to me, also never missed a day of work for menstrual cramps ( those people are totally whimmpy. Right women have to leave when they have a pregnancy because it is dangerous, being half a person might be dangerous also.
I think vets and, well, everyone, should get the exact same coverage that congress gets. Furthermore, people should be allowed to purchase additional coverage at their own expense, except congress - congress must vote for the level of coverage they want for themselves, their families and every other citizen without the right to to purchase additional coverage until they leave office.
Ya Ya congress and all elected officials will never vote to make their extras and overly abundant perks - obsolete. People have been complaining for the last 40 years I can remember, but nothing ever happens. If anyone finds a real campaign to make that happen - Tell us all about it.
I agree. A lot of people are just using the military to cheat them out of free sex change operations, but banning all transgender people from the military wasn't the best solution. Just stop paying for their operations, after all it's not a life or death situation. It's like if the military was paying for people's liposuctions or collagen injections.
Tdude- - I don't know about that - going into the army or any of the military services is pretty frightening and probably real men and women don't treat trans too well/ YES Right life saving and excellent normal regular medical needs only for all service persons should be a notation when people sign up to serve.
But do transgender people really distinguish themselves enough for us to give them all that extra medical attention and expense. Now if transgender people became super soldiers after they changed that would be one thing. I think they probably accomplish less than others due to their whimsy spirit and crazy thoughts.
Having transgender people is the best way to fuck with the enemy. We get the Russians (sorry, Masha) confused and boom! That was that and that is the way we will conquer Northern Ireland or Korea as well.
I agree that taxpayers should not have to pay for the choices others make.
Transgender people should pay for their sexchange on their own and if they pass the tests the military has there is no reason not to enlist them.
Right about that it shouldn't matter what they are or were as military takes both men and women. I was watching a documentary that said it is troublesome on a submarine because there is no room for 3 different gender bathrooms. jeesh..same thing withe convicts, seems taxpayers get roped into paying for their foolishness as well. Isn't prison supposed to be horrible and teach criminals a lesson by making them suffer while in jail??
Well said and exactly the way I would've wanted to word it ;)
Your two statements present a conflict, Lorraine. The two most important requirements to serve in our military are being both physically and mentally fit. I'll likely, per usual, raise the ire in folks on both sides of the issue, but here's why:
Unless and until transgenderism receives broad acceptance from society, and not simply in a "whatever floats your boat" type of acceptance, but as a normal and natural occurrence for some, there will be issues transgenders struggle with regarding acceptance at the least. This may manifest as depression, anger, lack of self-confidence, or a mixture thereof, and may include other factors as well. The three specified are of major import in our troops, particularly since we engage in never-ending wars. Even among mentally healthy recruits, the situations they are placed in, especially those in war zones, can have profound impact on their psyches. Sucides are already higher among vets than in the general population. A 2008 survey found that 41% of transgenders surveyed had made at least one suicide attempt.
While transgenderism itself is largely considered a medical issue now, gender dysphoria is diagnosable in the DSM V due to distress at the mismatch between their identities and their bodies, as well as increased complications from problems functioning at work, other mental disorders, depression, and suicidal tendencies. Now sex-reassignment surgery(ies) may alleviate these in some, but it is not guaranteed to do so, and will likely involve further and possibly lengthy psychological/psychiatric treatment, as well as ongoing hormone treatments. The first two are both time consuming and costly. Not paying for surgery, when it is both medically indicated and desired, will most likely result in sub-par troops who probably cannot afford the surgery/treatments on their own and could put others in danger, both civilian and military.
According to a study published in February of last year that I found on the NIH website, the estimated number of transgenders in the general population, if applied to the total number serving in our active-duty military or our military and our reserves puts the possible number of transgenders in our services between 5,000-8,000+. Now I find that estimate to be high, but I really have nothing factual to base that on, and maybe there are a lot who struggle silently with this, I simply don't know. Using those recently available estimates, though, this could conceivably be a serious and costly issue for our military...in dollars, time, and lives.
An important aspect of this argument, and one I have never seen addressed, is that regulations are routinely subject to VSL (value of a statistical life) cost/benefit analyses before implementation. This is SOP across governmental agencies. In other words, if it costs more to implement the regulation than the value given to a life x the number of lives it is estimated the regulation would save...it is not adopted. Pragmatism rules in this one area of our government.
Now I am not saying that transgenders cannot be fit to serve, mentally as well as physically. I just think this is too important and costly (in $, safety, and time invested in each and every troop even before transgender issues come into play, as well as after) an issue to be determined without a valid cost/benefit analysis that does not take discrimination into consideration. Discrimination simply has no place in such an analysis.
As always...JMHO
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm...es/PMC5227946/
https://www.psychiatry.org/pati...nder-dysphoria
Smart!
Thank you, Bud. I believe you have served, as well, ditto my comment to Rooster above.
Thanks Boz.
Very much appreciated.
Thank you, Rooster. That means a lot coming from someone who has served. :)
I think a lot of people would look at things differently were it their life depending upon the mental stability of another in a war zone.
"In other words, if it costs more to implement the regulation than the value given to a life x the number of lives it is estimated the regulation would save...it is not adopted."
Sounds like the "not being worth the cost or trouble to do this," scenario.
Again, why do we even have to know anyone's choices/desires? Just do the job, soldier or anyone else.
ozzy- I agree just do your job and nobody will bother you. That is my thought on many of the issues about sexual differences. How is anyone going to know what you do at home if you just leave it at home. But oh no people gotta yap yap about themselves and bring un needed attention to themselves. What did they expect to happen? Any pervert can do what they want like whips chains swinging lifestyle and nobody will care if they just keep i t to themselves
I would agree if there are no questions about their mental fitness, Ozzy, but apparently that is a rather large aspect with transgenders. It's not just a matter of who they are attracted to, but of literally feeling as if they do not belong in the body they are born with. As I cited above, 41% in one survey admitted they had attempted suicide at least once. People who may be suicidal, depressed, or mentally unstable do not belong in combat situations, positions that those in combat rely upon or take orders from, or frankly imo, in the military at all.
No one knows the mental stability of anyone and most will not talk about it. I know of suicidal people who followed through and it had nothing to do with sexuality.
How many have had suicide cross their minds in a painful, weak moment? 41% would be fairly low, IMHO.
With absolute certainty, no, but there is screening and flags to watch for. That wasn't 41% who had a fleeting thought in a moment of weakness, Ozzy, but actual attempts, and multiple attempts for some of them.
Again, Ozzy, transgenderism is not about sexuality, but core identity.
OH GUN very good point I didn't know they won't take diabetics, OK they need to stay onn schedule and soldiers don't have that luxury.
I am against trans being in the military. The sole purpose of a military is to fight wars, not be a test bed for social experiments. A soldier should be ready to go to war after 10 weeks of basic training and 10 - 20 weeks of advanced training. A soldier should be able to serve for about 2 1/2 years, after training on a 3 year enlistment.
That's not going to happen when a person goes into the military with their sole purpose being getting a sex change. Between the surgery, therapy, psychological testing, adjusting to a new body, more therapy and hormone therapy, a typical person going through all this will not "serve", at all. They will not be physically or mentally fit for combat. (That's just a fact) Meanwhile, all this is done on the taxpayer dime.
How many here, who have served, wants to go into combat, or serve with a person who is experiencing 2 - 3 years of menopause?
You should have a proper chat with my boobs, Bob. There's a thermo' layer between them.
3 years menopause - now that isn't always the case. It never did a thing to me, also never missed a day of work for menstrual cramps ( those people are totally whimmpy. Right women have to leave when they have a pregnancy because it is dangerous, being half a person might be dangerous also.
I think vets and, well, everyone, should get the exact same coverage that congress gets. Furthermore, people should be allowed to purchase additional coverage at their own expense, except congress - congress must vote for the level of coverage they want for themselves, their families and every other citizen without the right to to purchase additional coverage until they leave office.
Ya Ya congress and all elected officials will never vote to make their extras and overly abundant perks - obsolete. People have been complaining for the last 40 years I can remember, but nothing ever happens. If anyone finds a real campaign to make that happen - Tell us all about it.
I agree. A lot of people are just using the military to cheat them out of free sex change operations, but banning all transgender people from the military wasn't the best solution. Just stop paying for their operations, after all it's not a life or death situation. It's like if the military was paying for people's liposuctions or collagen injections.
Tdude- - I don't know about that - going into the army or any of the military services is pretty frightening and probably real men and women don't treat trans too well/ YES Right life saving and excellent normal regular medical needs only for all service persons should be a notation when people sign up to serve.
Now nothing, I don't know how to change the rules
So does my mortgage.
What does that have to do with the price of buttermilk?
But do transgender people really distinguish themselves enough for us to give them all that extra medical attention and expense. Now if transgender people became super soldiers after they changed that would be one thing. I think they probably accomplish less than others due to their whimsy spirit and crazy thoughts.
Having transgender people is the best way to fuck with the enemy. We get the Russians (sorry, Masha) confused and boom! That was that and that is the way we will conquer Northern Ireland or Korea as well.
I'm a kangaroo.
When will I get compensation from Australia? Huh?!!
I agree with you.
I agree with what you said.It makes one wonder if that's why they join.