A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Eighteen school shootings so far in 2018. That's the price of freedom?

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Image for post A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.  Eighteen school shootings so far in 2018.  That's the price of freedom?
31% The right to bear Arms shall not be infringed 8% Obama took my guns 23% I want a well regulated Militia 38% Other
VicZincs avatar Politics
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I can’t understand why there is so much controversy over the way a gun “looks”. If it looks one way, it is called an assault rifle and labeled as a gun meant only for killing people. That’s Hollywood and the media talking and it’s ridiculous. Sadly, people have bought into the whole “assault rifle” mindset. If it “looks” like a military weapon, it must “be” a military weapon. My first gun, when I was 11 years old, on the farm, was a semi-automatic 22, and it held 15 rounds. This was back in 1966. It had the same functionality as an AR 15 and fired just as fast. Does that make it some kind of an “assault rifle?” Some people also call an AR 15 a high caliber rifle. It’s not. An AR 15 fires a 223 round. That “bullet” is only slightly larger than a 22. In most states, it is not even legal to shoot a deer with it because it is too small, and deemed not powerful enough. There is a lot of controversy over the way a gun looks, but the style of a gun doesn’t change what it does or how it operates. “Any” gun can kill a person, if it is in the wrong hands, just like a knife, a car, household chemicals, or the many other items a 12-year-old kid can buy in a hardware store. We are being indoctrinated into believing a gun is responsible for killing people instead of the people using them. Those of us old enough on here, remember that there were semi-automatic rifles 50+ years ago and many “kids” had them in the trunks of their cars at schools in farming communities to go hunting with. How many times were they used to shoot up a school?

Again, lets look at functionality. I know many farmers who have AR 15 type rifles that they use to shoot coyotes and other predators. They also use them for target practice. Want to know a couple reasons why they are a gun of choice for target practice and shooting at predators? Cost. A 223 round costs about 20-30 cents. A 30-06 round might be 75 cents a round. There is also a lot less “kick” on a smaller caliber rifle. Granted, some people buy them for the “look”, but their real functionality isn't any different from any other semi-automatic rife.

Let’s take a look at the intent of the second amendment. It wasn’t meant to provide people the right to hunt for food. It was meant for people to have the ability to protect themselves, not only from others who wished them harm, but from a tyrannical government. Some people claim it was meant to be limited to single shot muskets. At the time the 2nd Amendment was written, the single shot musket was the most advanced form of firearm in existence. I’m assuming here that the founding fathers believed the people should be armed with the same technology that criminals or the government might be armed with if they tried to attack law abiding citizens. Let’s look at the facts. What is one of the first moves a tyrannical government does in taking away a people’s rights. They take away their ability to defend themselves. Germany, China, and Russia come to mind.

Those who claim that the police are the only ones who should be allowed to carry guns, because they are the ones responsible for our safety, need to look at the facts. When an incident happens, be it at a school or someone’s private home, the police usually show up in time to set up a crime scene and count the bodies. When they get to the home of an unarmed person they can always identify the dead homeowner. If it’s the home of an armed homeowner, they sometimes get to identify the body of the criminal.

I’ll make a quick remark about high capacity magazines. Those who have been in a combat zone, either in war, or on the streets of their own neighborhood will understand this. There is so such person as John Wick, or the other Hollywood characters who fire 6 shots and kill six intruders. Under stress during a shooting situation, people miss. How many gun battles between police and criminals do we see where 50 – 100 rounds were fired with nobody being hit? The worst thing to happen in that situation is to run out of bullets.

Anyone who says someone who supports guns, supports what happened yesterday is pretty simple in my mind. Responsible gun owners hate what happened yesterday just as much and those who want to eliminate all guns. If the killer in yesterdays crime didn’t have a gun, he would have found other ways to carry out his crime, be it pipe bombs, poison, a truck, or whatever else he chose to use. Also, criminals always have a way to get a gun, if not legally, then illegally.

I can understand why some people don’t like guns and feel it’s someone else’s job to protect them. I’ll respect those opinions, as long as they respect my right to protect myself, my family and my property.

Just my two cents.

@JustJimColo I can’t understand why there is so much controversy over the way a gun “looks”. If it looks one way, it is...

So...we just accept that guns are available to anyone not in the stytem? No training, no licence, just put one in everyone's hands...
I would be happy to take a test and renew a license every couple of years. And I would certainly not mind deeper background checks.

@Carla So...we just accept that guns are available to anyone not in the stytem? No training, no licence, just put one in...

I'm not saying we should accept the fact that so many illegals guns are out there or that so many criminals who should not have guns, have them. I do say that we should acknowledge it as a fact though. I'm all for getting guns out of the hands of those illegally having them. I'm also for mandatory gun safety training. I am against people having to spend hundreds of dollars to obtain training they can't afford though. I have a conceal carry permit and it cost about $200 to obtain.
When I was in Jr High, the hunter safety card came into being. Everyone in my combined, Jr. High/High School went to the auditorium for one day and EVERYONE went through the hunters safety course. (No cost) Too bad we can't bring back that program.
I have no problem with background checks as long as they are conducted in an efficient and inexpensive manner. (The same way it is when I buy a gun at a sporting goods store)

@JustJimColo I'm not saying we should accept the fact that so many illegals guns are out there or that so many criminals who...

That was in the time that drivers training was part of the schools ciriculam.

I don't know....i think it could be done for years, for say.. .less than 25 billion?

@Carla That was in the time that drivers training was part of the schools ciriculam. I don't know....i think it could be...

I'm betting it could be done for free Carla. One day out of the year, one of the hundreds of thousands of qualified hunter safety instructors could go into to the auditorium of the schools and give the 4 hour block of instruction to those "wanting" to attend. Finding qualified people to volunteer to do this would be easy. The difficult part would getting past those teachers and school officials who think all guns should be outlawed.

@JustJimColo I'm betting it could be done for free Carla. One day out of the year, one of the hundreds of thousands of qualified...

I believe that. I would volunteer for that program.
I must live in an alternative universe. I just don't know anyone who is so adverse to guns. Gun violence yes.

@Carla I believe that. I would volunteer for that program. I must live in an alternative universe. I just don't know...

We are all against gun violence Carla. Of course you know people who are extremely adverse to guns Carla. Just look at the posts here. Just because YOU have common sense on this doesn't mean everyone else has it.

@JustJimColo I can’t understand why there is so much controversy over the way a gun “looks”. If it looks one way, it is...

Very informative response. A few questions/comments..

1) If the difference in functionality between an AR 15 and a .22 are fairly small, why do so many people choose the former? I'm assuming there's something that makes the AR 15 (besides its looks) superior to a .22. I know very little about guns.

2) The 2nd amendment reads: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I'm not saying guns are not necessary for personal defense, but to me the intent of the 2nd amendment seems to speak to the security of the State and not that of an individual. The phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" seems pretty clear, but the intent of the founding fathers is debatable.

3) I believe if someone is hell bent on killing people in a school, limiting access to legal guns would not stop him. He would most likely find and use an illegal gun. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, but these people are not suicide bombers and to the best of my knowledge never use poison gas or vehicles. So in my opinion there is something about a gun that makes it the weapon of choice for these killers. I doubt most would use a substitute.

Again, great comment Jim.

@PhilboydStudge Very informative response. A few questions/comments.. 1) If the difference in functionality between an AR 15 and...

1. While the bullet of the two are similar in size, there is a larger charge (more gunpowder) in the casing of an AR 15 which makes the round go faster and farther. By functionality being the same, I mean that they both use the same type mechanism to fire and reload a round in the chamber. (As one round is ejected, another is automatically loaded into the chamber and is immediately ready to be fired as the trigger is pulled.) With a bolt action,or single shot, a new bullet must be manually loaded each time the gun is fired. With fully automatic, the trigger does not need to be pulled after each shot. It continues to fire until the trigger is no longer being held back.

2. What is a militia? If you look at 10 different dictionaries on line, you will get 10 different definitions. Personally, I look at it as citizens who are armed and prepared to defend their rights against foreign as well as domestic threats. This could be military reservists, National Guard, or just Joe Smith on the street.

3. Guns are the weapon of choice in the US because, like you said, they are the easiest to procure. If we look at other countries, it's pretty evident that people will use whatever means they can find to accomplish their goals. People in this country have already used other means as a substitute. Look at all the pipe bombs, and even a pressure cooker was used at the Boston Marathon a few years back. The kind of weapons a person uses to kill others is often only limited to their imagination and access to materials to make them.

@JustJimColo 1. While the bullet of the two are similar in size, there is a larger charge (more gunpowder) in the casing of an...

RE: "What is a militia?"

Actually, that is defined in 10 US Code section 246.

And under international law ... Article 1 of the Hague Regulations provides that the laws, rights and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps fulfilling four conditions:

1. to be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
2. to have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance;
3. to carry arms openly; and
4. to conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

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@2724742

I agree that guns are made to kill JD. I never said otherwise. I pointed out that if guns are not available, people who are intent on killing will find other means. You say that cars are not made for killing but how many people have been killed by vehicles in your own country when someone decided to use them as a weapon? You say you don't have guns in your country. Do you really believe that JD? Do you really believe that criminals don't have guns there? I know that you have been following the trends of violence in your country in recent years. Do you and everyone else in your country feel as safe in your homes as you did 10 years ago? As the increase in violence in your country increases are you content to have no way to defend yourself? Those who have the means, can live in more secure neighborhoods with security guards or higher security measures in place, but what about those who can't afford it?

Gun crime offenses in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

The Met Police's figures showed there were 2,544 gun crime offenses from April 2016 to April 2017 compared to 1,793 offenses from 2015 until 2016.

Knife crime also increased by 24% with 12,074 recorded offenses from 2016 to 2017.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39578500

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@2724817

If you want that argument JD, I would rightfully argue that guns sold to civilians were made and sold for the sole intent of hunting, target shooting or self defense. geez.... Are you claiming that gun manufacturers are building and selling guns for the sole intent of killing innocent people?
What you are missing here is that it doesn't matter if something wasn't made for the purpose it might be used for. It happens, and when it does, a pressure cooker can be as deadly as any gun.

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@2725001

I'm sorry to hear that JD. I thought you had an open mind to hear opposing points of view.. Guess I was wrong.

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@2725012

When two pressure cookers which were tuned into homemade bombs, detonated 12 seconds and 210 yards (190 m) apart at 2:49 p.m., near the finish line of the annual Boston Marathon, killing three people and injuring several hundred others, including 16 who lost limbs and you refuse to acknowledge that it can be just as lethal as a gun, you are closed.

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@2725017

Did you actually read what you wrote JD or are you just trying to insult my intelligence? I guess you are claiming everything that is made, can only be used for one purpose. That's pretty naive. You are claiming that every gun made, was made to kill innocent people. Let me guess, you've never held a gun or had to handle a gun. I guess we know where you stand on hunting and self defense. When it comes to self defense, I guess you believe, since you look like a good sized guy, that a 100 pound woman should face a guy your size, with her bare hands. Sorry JD, but I live in the real world.

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@2725166

No, you don't live in the real world.
We're done here.

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@2725229

Kids getting gunned down IS the real world. So are kids being blown up and murdered. There are people who stand up to it and try to stop it and there are the cowards, who deny it happens and rely on others to keep them safe.

Here is my take....
In 1791, when the second amendment was written, there was about 4 million American citizens (Not counting native Americans, and of course, slaves). No police departments, no national guard.
People had to protect themselves from attack, threats were very real, and help was not a phone call away. And the arms were flint locks and muskets.
There were no corner stores to pick up a pound of chicken from. Most people hunted their protein.

I am all about responsible gun ownership.
But tell me, please...
Who, other than the military, needs an ar15? They are a weapon made for killing people, not protecting a family from a person...killing people. Magazines that hold multiple rounds. Semi automatic. Available to anyone, 18 and older, that hasn't made it into the system.
So...why not hand grenades, missile launchers, pipe bombs?
No one, well, not me, wants to take people's 12 gauges or pistols. But why not have to have a renewable license? A test? We do it for autos. Why not guns?
People say...there are already too many guns available. If a bad guy wants a gun, they will get a gun. But...the manufacturers, the people driving the
n r a, they are still pumping them out. And .....instilling it in the brains of the people, that liberals want to take your guns....so buy more guns, deadlier guns.
Absurd.

Ridiculous.

@Carla Here is my take.... In 1791, when the second amendment was written, there was about 4 million American citizens...

Carla, If someone kicks down your door and enters your home with a gun, a knife or even a baseball bat, how much time, and ability, do you have to call 911? Then, how much more time before a cop arrives? Arriving in time to identify my body and put up crime scene tape, after the criminal has left, isn't in my game plan.

@JustJimColo Carla, If someone kicks down your door and enters your home with a gun, a knife or even a baseball bat, how much...

Hey...jim..someone comes uninvited into my home, they get a 32 caliber bullet to the forehead. But then, if I hear them outside, the state boys will be here in about 10 minutes.

@JustJimColo Carla, and that's exactly what they deserve if they break into your house.

Yes, indeed. When i was 12 we took a trip to Texas to visit family. Our house was broken into. All of my father's firearms were taken, never to be seen again. Well a trooper came, and was talking to my mom. He knew there was no man in the house. Mom's handguns were not in the same place as dad's rifles. Trooper told her, in no uncertain terms, if someone is breaking into your house, shoot them dead and drag their ass inside. I never forgot that.
If I go to jail, I'm alive.

@Carla Here is my take.... In 1791, when the second amendment was written, there was about 4 million American citizens...

I am not disagreeing, but it's important to be very specific in what is decided. Most 9 mm pistols are semi automatic. It's probably the most popular size because the ammo is reasonably cheap and it still has reasonable knock down power. Regular clips that fit in the hand grip hold 17 or more rounds. These aren't extended magazines. That's just what you get off the shelf. These would be considered assault weapons under what has be presented in the past for legislation. Just trying to make a point on specifics which is what usually throws a bill under the bus.

@Will_Janitor I am not disagreeing, but it's important to be very specific in what is decided. Most 9 mm pistols are semi...

An ar15 holds 100 rounds. I agree that the particulars get sticky when guns and restrictions are discussed. But I have to think that 15 rounds in a weapon should be adequate. It takes long enough to reload to fight or flee. Casualties may not be eliminated, but they would certainly fall.
Man....the times we live in.

@Carla An ar15 holds 100 rounds. I agree that the particulars get sticky when guns and restrictions are discussed. But I...

Carla, An AR magazine is generally sold in 10 and 20 round capacities. The largest I have seen is a 30 round magazine. While I have heard of a 100 round magazine, I've heard it is impractical due to the weight, poor design, high maintenance and it has a tendency to break. It is illegal in Colorado to sell a magazine that holds more than 15 rounds.

@Carla An ar15 holds 100 rounds. I agree that the particulars get sticky when guns and restrictions are discussed. But I...

You'll be glad to know that the standard AR-15 doesn't hold near 100 rounds. And, the civilian version is not automatic!

Budwicks avatar Budwick The right to bear Arms shall not be infringed 0Reply
@Will_Janitor I am not disagreeing, but it's important to be very specific in what is decided. Most 9 mm pistols are semi...

To be talking about how to not have so many children die as opposed to figuring out how to not have ANY die.

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@2724650

It is the ease in which those people get those guns.

@Carla It is the ease in which those people get those guns.

Carla, It's easier from a gang member to get a gun illegally than a law abiding citizen.

@JustJimColo Carla, It's easier from a gang member to get a gun illegally than a law abiding citizen.

Maybe...but when caught, those guns can be taken away. Of course the manufacturers pump them out faster.
They are the ones feeding the liberal vs conservative gun issue. I know not one liberal minded person who wants to take responsible persons guns. Everyone I know HAS guns.

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@2724732

Maybe...but this guy was far too organized and methodical. Insanity isn't easy to skate with.

I really don't know the answer or answers to all these shootings, but thinking gun laws are going to fix the problem is a mistake. It is easier and cheaper to make bombs than it is to get firearms. If violence is desired it is going to happen with whatever tools are left and there are 1000's of them to choose from.

Thrown out of school, killing animals, medications, counseling - how did this guy ever, ever get a gun without more scrutiny? This kind of background should be included in a better background check. Failure to thoroughly vet gun buyers contribute to this horrendous situation.

Please print this out and play along. First one to get a 'bingo' wins!

Image in content

VicZincs avatar VicZinc Obama took my guns +2Reply
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@2724639

Thanks for stopping by

VicZincs avatar VicZinc Obama took my guns +5Reply

A well regulated WELL REGULATED militia REGULATED

Of course that's not "the price of freedom" "Freedom, on its own merit, has no price - it inherently is just that by definition.

Lol, trying to regulate arms in America now would be akin to emptying the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon. That horse has well and truly bolted. I am afraid the only real option is to work on your people.

@AliceD Wasn't talking banning but regulation :)

I don't support regulation either. I am a chips-fall-as-they will kind of guy.

VicZincs avatar VicZinc Obama took my guns 0Reply
@VicZinc I don't support regulation either. I am a chips-fall-as-they will kind of guy.

Interestingly, neither do I, but I was just commenting on some of the material in the thread.

Not all of those shootings had casualties, whether they be non-fatal injuries, or fatalities.

Powersd453Devens avatar Powersd453Deven The right to bear Arms shall not be infringed +1Reply

You've taken two completely different topics and tried melting them together and failed.

Once again, this is NOT a gun control issue. It's a mental health issue. The kid has a mental health problem history. He has a violent history. He was expelled from that school. He liked shooting animals. He WAS going to counseling, then stopped going. He WAS on medications, then stopped. The Superintendent implied that there was more information in his record that he could not share because of HIPPA laws.

Gosh, with all that recent history that we DO know - who could have seen this coming? EVERYBODY!

The kid did not belong in general population. We need to re-open asylums to deal with whack-a-doodles like this. We can't expect teachers to do all the heavy lifting AND teach healthy kids too.

Leave the 2nd Amendment alone. Healthy gun owners and their guns are NOT the problem. Crazy people forced to live in the general population and ticking time bombs.

Budwicks avatar Budwick The right to bear Arms shall not be infringed 0Reply
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@2725066

That BS. Islam and the right share far more values than the left.

In fact before Trump called on them to be banned, most American muslims voted republican.

VicZincs avatar VicZinc Obama took my guns 0Reply
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@2725489

I totally support the 2nd and all the Bill of Rights.

What's that got to do with Islam and the right wings constant effort to take away my 1st and 4th? Islam and the right wings of America try to shove religious moralsdown everyone's throats and then take away our right to privacy in the name of security. Well they can kiss my ass.

I almost always agree with your opinions but not when you say the left is close to Islam. They, Islamic, are as conservative as you can get.

There is nothing in this post that suggests I am in favor of gun control. In fact I have stated many times that trying to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons is unconstitutional. It is the right wing that wants to keep nukes to themselves and prevent Iran and NK from getting them. Talk about hypocrisy.

VicZincs avatar VicZinc Obama took my guns 0Reply
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@2725842

Am I responding to the wrong thread here? Where did I call you right wing that alone nut job?

I said the right wing is full of hypocrisy. They want both the right to bear arms and the right to deny arms to people they don't like.

And what's that got to do with abortion or whatever you are on about now?

VicZincs avatar VicZinc Obama took my guns +1Reply

If only progressives would STFU... The 2nd Amendment is just fine, progressive infringements already in place are responsible for those shootings. Compare Parkland to that failed Maryland shooting [that media hasn't covered] -

In Parkland, only the shooter had a gun and was willing to engage. [There were other guns on site, but progressive protocol prevented the officers from engaging the shooter.]

In Maryland, the the shooter was taken out promptly by an armed officer on the premise. There were innocents wounded, one was taken off life support last night - the shooter was killed on site. Not a perfect result, but far better than it could have been if there hadn't been a good guy with a gun on site.

If the left would simply let this nonsensical argument go, we could better protect our kids in school.

Budwicks avatar Budwick The right to bear Arms shall not be infringed 0Reply
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