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In terms of 'good' and 'bad' every decision, every change, is zero-sum, equal parts positive and negative. From what you eat for dinner to whether you trust North Korea - it doesn't matter to the Earth. Whatever value it brings to you will be exactly balanced by some level of disvalue somewhere else.

Image for post In terms of 'good' and 'bad' every decision, every change, is zero-sum, equal parts positive and negative.  From what you eat for dinner to whether you trust North Korea - it doesn't matter to the Earth.  Whatever value it brings to you will be exactly balanced by some level of disvalue somewhere else.
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@2733571

maniac smilie that's the fun part.

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That is magical thinking. Life doesn't work that way.

Budwicks avatar Budwick Disagree +2Reply
@Budwick That is magical thinking. Life doesn't work that way.

Glad you have life all figured out. Please continue to only do the things that bring only positive utility to the entire world.

Much appreciated Bud.

@Budwick I'm sorry Vic, did I harsh your mellow?

How could it? Your decisions create only positive results. . .oh, wait a minute. . . are you saying that you purposely tried caused me dis-utility by your actions. Hmmm hmm smilie. Maybe it doesn't work the way you think it does, maybe it is ... magic hehe smilie.

@VicZinc How could it? Your decisions create only positive results. . .oh, wait a minute. . . are you saying that you...

Cause you dis-utility?
Look Vic, if you are experiencing, ... irregularity, look to your diet, life style, general health - not me!

Budwicks avatar Budwick Disagree 0Reply

I don't have access to enough information to agree our disagree, though I believe it don't mean nothing to the earth.

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@2732611

I don't know. Seems reasonable. Why did you have an abundance, and what dis-utilty was generated by you taking ownership of more than you needed? Now to ask the same of the other party? Who or what suffered a loss or a missed opportunity due to a transaction that was only possible because of an initial unequity?

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@2732687

Do you want a debate? Of course it all comes down to hypotheticals. And yes, I assume, based on my understanding of human nature, human needs, economy and agriculture.
But of course I don't know. I would be happy to suggest a few dozen possible sources of dis-utilty. I am also happy just to say, "OK, you win."

Your own take on Newton's Third Law.

There you go again, Vic, pontificatng in absolutes, when you have often said there are no absolutes that we can know for certain. biggrin smilie

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@2740634

I submit that all also have resultant disutility. Equal, in the long run to the benefits.

That we choose to ignore or simply cannot measure those results notwithstanding.

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@2740699

Thanks. As long as we agree.

@2740699

Vic's guessing might work, but the probability is low. hello smilie

@VicZinc I submit that all also have resultant disutility. Equal, in the long run to the benefits. That we choose to...

Yes, yes, Vic... in the long run, we are all dead.
Does that mean that the billion years of life on Earth is no different from the barren Moon?   I think not.
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@VicZinc "I think not" You said it.

And by the way, Vic, in your pontifications, you overlooked the 2nd and 3rd laws of thermodynamics; in the long run, it's worse than zero sum.   biggrin smilie

@VicZinc Oh you are thinking again. Careful you might strain your brain cell

I wouldn't have to strain more than one brain cell to find a flaw in one of your pontifications.

Or in one of your inept dodges. hello smilie

@Thinkerbell Still trying to cover up your ignorance, I see.

Still hiding behind your clever retorts rather than providing evidence for your position. Tsk Tsk.

@Thinkerbell I assumed you knew about the 2nd and 3rd laws of thermo. Tsk, tsk.

You mistakenly think entropy is "bad". Those laws actually support my hypothesis. Tsk Tsk.

@VicZinc You mistakenly think entropy is "bad". Those laws actually support my hypothesis. Tsk Tsk.

Wrong.

The higher the entropy, the less useful work you can get for ordered processes, such as life.

@VicZinc You mistakenly think "useful work" and "order processes" are good. Tsk Tsk.

Yes, yes, Vic, I know, you prefer the entropic heat death of the universe, when nothing can function anymore. hello smilie

@Thinkerbell Yes, yes, Vic, I know, you prefer the entropic heat death of the universe, when nothing can function anymore.

It is not about my preferences. It is just physics. You can dream or pretend or whatever it is you are doing in your shell, but the numbers say what they say.

@VicZinc It is not about my preferences. It is just physics. You can dream or pretend or whatever it is you are doing in...

A zero-sum game is one in which, say, you gain a dollar at the expense of someone else losing a dollar. A game like that could go on indefinitely.

The universe isn't like that. With each exchange of energy, there is also an increase in the entropy of the universe. When it goes on long enough, the game is over, because energy exchanges eventually are no longer possible. The universe will have irretrievably lost something it was initially able to do, therefore it is worse than a zero-sum game.

Yes, yes, I know... you're going to pretend you don't care for the universe's game, which is a big lie. biggrin smilie

@Thinkerbell A zero-sum game is one in which, say, you gain a dollar at the expense of someone else losing a dollar. A game like...

No. I am going to say that, again, you are mistakenly assigning moral values to thermodynamic events. This post is about good and bad. It has nothing to do with "energy" or entropy.

So unless you are planning to present an argument that the concepts of "good" and "bad" somehow follow the same rules as matter and energy, then please stop trying to obfuscate this thread with your nonsensical arguments.

@VicZinc No. I am going to say that, again, you are mistakenly assigning moral values to thermodynamic events. This post is...

So "from what you eat for dinner" has nothing to do with energy or entropy, eh?

As usual, you're dodging...to cover up your ignorance. wink smilie

@Thinkerbell So "from what you eat for dinner" has nothing to do with energy or entropy, eh? As usual, you're dodging...to...

Once again you are using insults instead of logic to support your arguments. Tsk Tsk.

Of course the reason we eat is to fuel metabolism. This post merely states that the food choices (and for that matter metabolism, and all consequences therefrom) are neither "good" nor "bad". That "opinions" are neither good nor bad - but equal parts of both; there is a balance of good and bad in all things.

Refute that instead of attacking my intelligence.

@VicZinc Once again you are using insults instead of logic to support your arguments. Tsk Tsk. Of course the reason we...

And once again, Vic, you are dodging. Tsk, tsk.

The "exact balance" of good and evil that you claim (without proof, btw) has already been amply refuted for short-term transactions by Boz and that_guy.

And the evidence that I gave from the 2nd and 3rd laws of thermo shows that your claim makes no long-term sense from the standpoint of physics either. It is not "zero sum".  Not only does your eating irreversibly increase the entropy of the universe, so do your thoughts (which are, as a rule, masterpieces of disorder). hehe smilie

@Thinkerbell And once again, Vic, you are dodging. Tsk, tsk. The "exact balance" of good and evil that you claim (without...

So sorry that you and your minions believe good and bad are carved in stone values. I feel sorry for you and your lack of insight.

@VicZinc So sorry that you and your minions believe good and bad are carved in stone values. I feel sorry for you and your...

My main point throughout has been less about "good and bad", which are matters of opinion, than about that it is not "zero-sum" .
 
And of course, you have still not proved your initial assertion.

@Thinkerbell My main point throughout has been less about "good and bad", which are matters of opinion, than about that it is...

Silly girl, as you said it is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it is zero sum. Yours seems different.

Thanks for playing. Game over, try again.

@VicZinc Silly girl, as you said it is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it is zero sum. Yours seems...

I said "good and bad" are matters of opinion, silly boy.
 
Entropy is not conserved; it only gets progressively larger. Therefore, the transactions that occur are not "zero sum."
 
And therefore, your opinion is wrong, as usual.   wink smilie

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