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A vaccine must be 100% effective to mandate it as a required drug, amirite?

2%Yeah You Are98%No Way
Toounknowns avatar Money & Economics
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Vaccines do not need to be 100% effective, that is impossible expectations. A vaccine that is even 40% effective can save many lives, reduce intensive care unit usage, hospitalizations, missed days of work and education. The benefits to the economy could be huge.

<i>"Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps."</i> Center for Disease Control

The economic costs of the disease would have been 1.4 billion dollars, source pubmed.

<i>"The resulting benefit-cost ratio for the MMR immunization program is approximately 14:1"</i> pubmed

As loyal patriotic citizens it is our duty to get vaccinated and to require vaccine passports as well as other vaccine mandates.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vp...lic/index.html
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3923849/

vegans avatar vegan No Way +9Reply
@vegan Vaccines do not need to be 100% effective, that is impossible expectations. A vaccine that is even 40% effective...

Getting sick is healty!!! Do you want to be a rounded human being who occasionally gets sick and has to miss work, lowering your nation's benifit- cost ratio ( ) . Or do you what pharmacies to test chemical alternatives on you, just to ' maintain benifit- cost ratio'. .. getting sick two times a year is wayyyy cheaper then the shut down!!!!

@Toounknown Getting sick is healty!!! Do you want to be a rounded human being who occasionally gets sick and has to miss work...

Getting sick is not healthy. Many viruses have lingering effects. For example measles erases immune memory. Long covid-19 can last for six months even in mild cases of covid-19.

I'm not sure what you meant by rounded human being, this statement needs clarification.

<i>"Vaccines have been tested and shown to be safe and effective."</i> reuters

As for pharmacies testing chemical alternatives, I assume you mean testing vaccines. All vaccines are tested in clinical trials. The Emergency Use Authorization is tested, just less so than normal due to the pandemic.

//"cheaper then the shut down" //

Red herring, this is about vaccines. If you wish to discuss the shut down I recommend another thread.

https://www.reuters.com/article...-idUSKBN2A52D6

vegans avatar vegan No Way +10Reply
@vegan Getting sick is not healthy. Many viruses have lingering effects. For example measles erases immune memory. Long...

By well rounded I mean...you are less healthy if you avoid natural immune defenses and constantly choose chemicals or what ever they are putting you.... plus all this hesitation is due to people knowing what their rights are, and people " vaxxers" constantly telling them otherwise... you can't make people do it!!! Putting the cost/value statistics makes you look like a robot...and not the free individual who by law is allowed to make decisions for them self

@Toounknown By well rounded I mean...you are less healthy if you avoid natural immune defenses and constantly choose chemicals...

Vaccines are safe, post infection immunity does not last as long as vaccine immunity.

"More than a third of COVID-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies

"Natural immunity" fades faster than vaccine immunity, particularly after mild infection" David Gorski

https://sciencebasedmedicine.or...nity-covid-19/

Referring to me as robot like is an ad hominem.

"In short, it's when your rebuttal to an opponent's position is an irrelevant attack on the opponent personally rather than the subject at hand" thoughtco

https://www.thoughtco.com/ad-ho...allacy-1689062

vegans avatar vegan No Way +7Reply
@vegan Vaccines are safe, post infection immunity does not last as long as vaccine immunity. "More than a third of...

Honestly, thank you for your attempts to educate me, I don't mean to insult you personally, we are more then just our opinions. I know vaxx are safe, I know people have been saved by them. ....I think I have gotten stuck arguing that they are harmful, and that's NOT the point I'm trying to make( everyone knows I'm bad at making a point) ..I just though that people would understand this as an attack on personal freedoms. What you see as a something necessary, I see as an option. People like me get sidetracked just like I did on this thread, because as I'm weighing out my possible options , someone says I must do it. .. then I lose my train of thought, I think this person must not care about me if they won't even let me decide..I lose track of what was the question in the first place... that's exactly why we are on this narrative...you think I don't want the shot because I'm ignorant to science, and I'll never win that arguement, I'm just saying that nothing, not even a maricle drug that's 100% safe, should ever be mandated. I lose the argument because it seems I'm against science, but I'm against the legislation that thinks science beats justice, and freedom of choice

@Toounknown Honestly, thank you for your attempts to educate me, I don't mean to insult you personally, we are more then just...

Your welcome. I am glad we agree vaccines are safe and effective. I admire your honesty about being bad at making a point.

Appeal to freedom is ironically an argument against freedom according to Skeptics Guide to the Universe. For example using libertarian ideology to promote climate change denial is an argument against libertarian by attaching pseudo-science to the argument. The same for creationism.

Rebecca Watson makes a strong case for vaccine mandates with exemptions, but make the exemptions annoying and require extra effort.

YouTube video thumbnail

https://skepchick.org/2021/09/a...o-do-it-right/

vegans avatar vegan No Way +3Reply
@vegan Your welcome. I am glad we agree vaccines are safe and effective. I admire your honesty about being bad at making a...

Just more of , I'm right and you MUST do what I say. Science is not full proof, and it's "facts" have been abused for millenniums to enslave individuality....the reason my arguments seem like chaos is a failure of my oppositions imagination, who become rigidity bound to their social parties goals.... fact , scientists and doctors lied about the risk of covid to scare more people into accepting the covid vaccine, clearly covid is less of a threat then small pox, but vaxxers seem unable to differentiate the two.

@Toounknown Just more of , I'm right and you MUST do what I say. Science is not full proof, and it's "facts" have been abused...

One reason why vaccine hesitant arguments are chaotic is due to the motte and bailey fallacy. Climate change deniers use this style to confused their opponents.

Sample climate change denier argument //"I believe in climate change, but it is not man-made, it is the sun." //

The above is a climate change denier argument and is both false and a motte and bailey fallacy. The sun's activity is low. When winning the denier may charge outward into the bailey and claim their is no climate change at all, not even the sun.

Oppositely, when losing will retreat further into the motte and admit anthropocentric climate change but resist any solutions. Yet, that is the whole point to stall or not doing anything, which acts as a final defense for the climate change denier.

Skeptic's Guide to the Universe recommends focusing on the Motte, so that the science denier cannot retreat thus hitting an immobile as opposed to moving target.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey

As for oppositions' imagination becoming rigid that is an ad hominem against me or Rebecca Watson or both.

Scientists and doctors if anything under report covid-19 deaths. The myth that doctors inflated covid-19 deaths is conspiracy thinking.

"A CDC analysis, in line with other research, finds the reported deaths from COVID-19 likely underestimate deaths from the virus." politifact

https://www.politifact.com/fact...late-covid-19/

Agreed that covid-19 is less risk than smallpox.

About 700 children have died from covid-19 already according to the CDC. Vaccine mandates are important to protect our young.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-dat.../#demographics

vegans avatar vegan No Way +9Reply
@Toounknown Just more of , I'm right and you MUST do what I say. Science is not full proof, and it's "facts" have been abused...

I'm also disappointed that people hold on to the legacy of forced vaxx as if it was morally just to mandate in the first place... this argument is similar to saying something like , woman's suffrage is fine, because it WAS a law.

@Toounknown I'm also disappointed that people hold on to the legacy of forced vaxx as if it was morally just to mandate in the...

Comparing vaccine mandates to women's suffrage is a false analogy. Woman's suffrage is moral because it is fair. After all, there is no good reason for men to be able to vote and not women. Before women's suffrage there was no law's guaranteeing their right to vote.

Vaccine mandates save lives. Also, remember this is often a private institution like a school or workplace implementing these measures. No laws need to be involved in many cases.

// "Thus, for most vaccines, achieving high levels of coverage is important not only for individual protection but in preventing disease in vulnerable populations that cannot be directly protected by vaccination. This provides the rationale for interventions to achieve high population immunity, such as removing barriers that may prevent access to vaccines (e.g., providing recommended vaccines without cost), as well as mandates for immunization requirements for attending school " //

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm...es/PMC5402432/

vegans avatar vegan No Way +8Reply
@vegan Comparing vaccine mandates to women's suffrage is a false analogy. Woman's suffrage is moral because it is fair...

I'm disappointed by these mini governments who lord over their subjects / employees/ and customers who are the very reason they have power at all. I do agree , these private businesses have a right to refuse service to patrons or employees who disobey. ... This is why I love America, is that if I felt a business over stepped their boundaries, I would move on to a business aligned with my ideals, and I think some places reflected on the results of the effect on their profits.... I again used a shitty example with suffrage, but it is a clear example to prove not all laws have the best interest in the people.

@Toounknown I'm also disappointed that people hold on to the legacy of forced vaxx as if it was morally just to mandate in the...

Vaxxers are so proud to be educated in science and medicine but they seem so clueless about politics and social justice.

@Toounknown Vaxxers are so proud to be educated in science and medicine but they seem so clueless about politics and social...

Irrelevant attack on the character of vaxxers. From Tom Nicholas Death of Expertise.

" Less costly military lead to the fall of the league of nations global war and fascism"

The pandemic puts a huge economic burden on Democracy. Governments may cut military budgets leading to the rise of fascism. Even if a person is somehow completely protected from the disease they are not immune to totalitarianism. By getting vaccinated and passing vaccine mandates you are supporting democracy against fascism.

Do you think it is a coincidence that the Taliban and Russia invaded during the pandemic? No, they waited until democracy was weak due to anti-vaxxers.

vegans avatar vegan No Way +7Reply
@vegan Irrelevant attack on the character of vaxxers. From Tom Nicholas Death of Expertise. //" Less costly military...

Fascism is the best way to deliver solutions like vaccines, yes true freedom may doom the world by individuals selfish or misinformed actions. ..I'm sure even the most stubborn anti vaxxer has regret if they find themselves on their death bed due to covid. But I know for a fact the lack of vax isn't always what did them in... the susceptible or weakened, must isolated themselves, wear gloves and masks and be constantly careful... a vax might just incourage these weak to wonder into society with false hope

@Toounknown Cool, vaccines are safe and effective, but I still have the right to decide

If by this you mean pass vaccine mandates with annoying and educational requirements for exemptions then we are in agreement.

vegans avatar vegan No Way +5Reply

And make the drug maker liable.

beachbums avatar beachbum Yeah You Are -4Reply
@beachbum And make the drug maker liable.

The drug companies have saved many lives. Yes, vaccine due cause some harm, but the risk is well worth it.

"A manufacturer is not liable for harm caused by a nondefective product due to its inherent or unavoidable dangerousness."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK216813/

LOU REESE: "The largest gains in human longevity ever are debatably attributed to vaccine technology."

YouTube video thumbnail

vegans avatar vegan No Way +8Reply
@vegan The drug companies have saved many lives. Yes, vaccine due cause some harm, but the risk is well worth it. "A...

The quote you presented completely allows these companies to get away with murder. I would be careful of verbiage like this, because lawyers can exploit it. Especially because it goes against common sense. And I'm sure the quote was referring to willing participants, and not forced users.

@beachbum And make the drug maker liable.

Liable... Pharmaceutical companies dont know what that word means...nor the FDA

@Toounknown Liable... Pharmaceutical companies dont know what that word means...nor the FDA

Oh, they know exactly what it means - they just think it's funny.

beachbums avatar beachbum Yeah You Are -2Reply
@beachbum Oh, they know exactly what it means - they just think it's funny.

There is good reason why these companies are not liable. There is side effects and risks with every medication.

vegans avatar vegan No Way +9Reply
@vegan There is good reason why these companies are not liable. There is side effects and risks with every medication.

Not much research done on how many people don't benifit from the vaxx. Many people were not effected at all by the disease, their strong immune system was considered dangerous to those at risk. I see the value in a totally vaxxed society, but some people have more immediate problems. Forceing mandates to deal with Homelessness, mental illness and drug dependency is a more productive pursuit. If we must share immunities why not share money, or your house with empty rooms. A mandate against guns would save lives, but we are stuck demanding freedom, and the consequences freedom brings.

@Toounknown Not much research done on how many people don't benifit from the vaxx. Many people were not effected at all by the...

I suggest reading 1491 New Revelations of the Americans Before Columbus. This book disproves that a strong immune system is protection enough without vaccines. The Wampanoag were more physically fit, had more nutritious diets, and were healthier overall.

Despite this tragically, viral hepatitis wiped out completely fifty Wampanoag villages, according to Charles Mann. The Europeans had post infection immunity. The idea of a virus that kills 100% or at least 99.9% is both surreal and horrifying, but it happened.

I don't see how the other mandates you suggested are mutually exclusive from vaccine mandates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1...efore_Columbus

vegans avatar vegan No Way +4Reply
@Toounknown I guess my point was that we need a " no mandates...mandate "

If I understand correctly you are stating that we should ban vaccine passports? I don't want to put words in your mouth. Thank you for continuing the conversation.

I am responding in further detail about a previous comment you made, about a strong immune system. A strong immune system certainly helps, but if you look at the history of Europeans and America, disease won.

The Inca were a superpower, more powerful than Britain or China. Perhaps even more technologically advanced. Yet, the various Native American Indian superpowers in now Canada, USA, Mexico, Central America, and South America all eventually succumbed to infectious disease.

The guns and cannons of the Europeans didn't cut it, the Europeans attacked and lost. Stating that the Americans were heavily defended and highly populated.

A modern example is people are extremely health, 16-40 years old robust physical fitness and some still die. Yes, extremely healthy people are less likely to die from covid-19, but a vaccine is better. A lot of famous physically fit and healthy anti-vaxxers have died from covid for example Marcus Birks.

<i>"healthy 16 year-old dies of COVID-19" </i>

https://www.euronews.com/2020/0...es-of-covid-19
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-eng...shire-58597909

vegans avatar vegan No Way +3Reply
@vegan If I understand correctly you are stating that we should ban vaccine passports? I don't want to put words in your...

Physically fit people are alive... the unfit die... your defining dead as heathy????clearly they had underlying complications....... .... I can see why truckers or travelers would benifit the world by having a vaxx. It would be insanity to travel between countries in a true pandemic, I'm tired of the privileged acting like a vaxx makes everything OK. It doesn't. Just so they can go on their 3rd vacation for the year.. I guess my point now is , is that nothing is guaranteed, except what do in the privacy of your own home.

@Toounknown Physically fit people are alive... the unfit die... your defining dead as heathy????clearly they had underlying...

First, I want to thank you for this conversation, I learned something new from you. Exercise does help protect against covid-19, I didn't know that.

Physical activity protects against severe covid-19, but a vaccine offers greater protection. The two combined, physical fitness and vaccine offer more protection than vaccine only, source havardhealth.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/...9-202106092475

Non-vaccinated healthy people still die of covid-19.

"A “fit and healthy” 42-year-old who loved climbing mountains and lifting weights has died of Covid-19 after refusing to get vaccinated, leaving his twin sister and mother heartbroken."

https://www.theguardian.com/wor...-dies-of-covid

What do you mean true pandemic? Over 6 million people have died worldwide and nearly one million are from the USA, source World Health Organization. Let alone Intensive care unit usage, hospitalization, and mild cases with long covid. This is a true pandemic in every sense of the word.

https://covid19.who.int/region/amro/country/us

I agree, a vaccine does not make everything okay. Masks, testing, self-isolation, thorough hand washing, social distancing, regular exercise, anti-virals, and even lock-down as necessary. When vaccines are combined with all the other prevention methods there is a cumulative effect.

Vaccines mandates are only one measure in a multi-prong approach.

<i> "We need to pass effective regulation that mandates vaccination as a public health measure and only allows for medical exemptions. It’s now clear that people will abuse any non-medical exemptions allowed." </i> Steven Novella on May 1, 2019

Notice this is written in 2019 before the pandemic. Even if covid-19 was still contained to a bat cave, vaccine mandates should be passed.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.or...-anti-vaxxers/

You make a valid point about rich privileged people acting as super-spreaders. That's how measles spreads to 1st world countries. Non-vaccinated privileged people travel to a measles ridden area. Next, they fly home and a measles outbreak happens. We really need to give more foreign aid to eradicate measles worldwide.

vegans avatar vegan No Way +6Reply
@vegan First, I want to thank you for this conversation, I learned something new from you. Exercise does help protect...

It's all about control, you are looking for a fool proof way to control. But people live with different restrictions.... not everyone needed to lock down, some people have immunities, it's the susceptible people who MUST adapt . We are all individuals, and saying that a vaxx helps us all the same is a lie. I truly think that the people who need a working vaxx are the ones who are dead, and the ones who survived this 99% of humans , never needed one in the first place. A true pandemic would have numbers like 40% fatal, a pandemic worth shutting down businesses, a pandemic worth sacrificing children's education. A pandemic worth having total authority on. Oh how nice big pharm is to treat us to a shot during their most profitable time in history. We will never know the world's natural resistance ability,, because the vaxx takes credit for saving people that would naturaly have saved themselves without the vaxx in the first place....the human body is a hardly understood biological marvel... and you have no right to change mine without my consent

@Toounknown It's all about control, you are looking for a fool proof way to control. But people live with different...

The argument I'm responding to uses conspiracy thinking.

"Oh how nice big pharm is to treat us to a shot during their most profitable time in history. " Toounknown

The fossil fuel industry uses conspiracy thinking to spread its lies.

https://skepticalscience.com/co...nslations.html

"The Middle East is a cauldron of conspiracy, a place where the most bizarre theories often have real policy consequences. " Saul Lieberman

I recommend the Shadowlands series in the Atlantic to get a full picture of how dangerous conspiracy thinking is.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ide...uction/610840/

vegans avatar vegan No Way +3Reply
@Toounknown It's all about control, you are looking for a fool proof way to control. But people live with different...

Toounknow, I've been too embarrassed to admit this, but I was an anti-vaxxer when I first joined this website back in 2015. I didn't make any anti-vaccine posts because I was new to the online community and didn't want to be shunned.

You can tell I was anti-vaxx by my first posts. Using sources like Greenpeace anti-gmo, Neal Barnard and Michael Greger, both vegan propaganda extremists. I certainly, had many anti-science views.

I am concerned that you are not taking this pandemic seriously. When, I was anti-vaxx I got the flu a lot. My health deteriorated and my quality of life went down a lot. I'm worried about you.

vegans avatar vegan No Way +3Reply
@Toounknown Im vaxxed...which only stokes my hatred for my oppressors

I don't understand what you mean about stoking hatred for oppressors? Can you clarify?

vegans avatar vegan No Way +5Reply
@vegan I don't understand what you mean about stoking hatred for oppressors? Can you clarify?

I fight for freedom over control of body...I've been so proud to see slavery abolished, and woman's suffrage made criminal... freedom of speech, right to reasonable abortion, freedom of religion...freedom to marry... just to be forced to get injected 💉 or sacrifice my livelihood... we are living in a time of righteous hypocrites, I sleep knowing I am strong enough to fight off the weapons of my oppressors....but why waste time arguing, these things only concern the already dead

@Toounknown I fight for freedom over control of body...I've been so proud to see slavery abolished, and woman's suffrage made...

If I understand correctly, I don't want to words in your mouth, you felt you were vaccinated against your will? I want to understand.

vegans avatar vegan No Way +7Reply
@vegan If I understand correctly, I don't want to words in your mouth, you felt you were vaccinated against your will? I...

I could pay for a test every 3 days ( till forever I guess), I made the most logical decision... I willingly got it , but I was given shit options....it's kinda how Trump got elected, if you give someone only shitty options, they are forced to pick a shitty solution. ..but honestly it's none of my works fucking business what I do with my body

@Toounknown I could pay for a test every 3 days ( till forever I guess), I made the most logical decision... I willingly got...

Was busy at work, I am back now. Hmmmm, interesting that you would have to pay for the test every three days. I had to take the test 1-2 times and it was annoying. How expensive was the test, if you don't mind me asking?

vegans avatar vegan No Way +4Reply
@Toounknown 20$

I know that doesn't sound like much... but big pharm wanta the solution to be something bought..they want to provide the solution ...instead of allowing me making my own conclusions.. it's not even called capitalism at this point...only fascism

@vegan There is good reason why these companies are not liable. There is side effects and risks with every medication.

There are side effects and risks with almost everything in life. It's the mandating that I have a problem with. If vaccines can be forced on us, then what's next? There has been way to much money/control made for a hand full of people.

beachbums avatar beachbum Yeah You Are -1Reply
@beachbum There are side effects and risks with almost everything in life. It's the mandating that I have a problem with...

Slippery slope fallacy.

"The slippery slope is a fallacy, says Jacob E. Van Fleet, "precisely because we can never know if a whole series of events and/or a certain result is determined to follow one event or action in particular." Richard Nordquist

https://www.thoughtco.com/slipp...allacy-1692105

The concentration of wealth bothers me too. These eight men own half the world's wealth.

" Bill Gates
Amancio Ortega (Spanish founder of Inditex)
Warren Buffett
Carlos Slim (Mexican businessman)
Jeff Bezos
Mark Zuckerberg
Larry Ellison
Michael Bloomberg"

https://www.inc.com/melanie-cur...ds-wealth.html

vegans avatar vegan No Way +7Reply
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