Joel wasn't just a mentor though. He was a main character and the player character for most of the first game. And he didn't just die, the player was then put in the place of his murderer. Players were wanting to play as Joel again, instead they played as the person who tortured and killed him. What the game was going for was some broader demonstration of how broken the world was and that Joel's execution was equally as justified as anything Joel ever did. The player in the first game came to care for a broken character. A character who selfishly stole, tortured, butchered, whoever and however many it took to get his way. The second game reinforced that it was a world where no one was safe and all who lived by the sword died by the sword. The problem is...that sucked. You can't just kill the main character and ask people to empathise with the person who did it without a whole lot of work that the game never really delivered on. Instead it came out as a trite "we all have our problems" and "'better to give up on vengeance". Okay, but Joel's issues were the player's issues. They mattered more, even if they shouldn't, because we'd experienced them from the first person perspective. Joel dying at the start of the second game was anything but inevitable. The expectation was a whole game of him.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

In my opinion, the biggest problem is that Abby was an irredeemable character. It wouldn't have taken much of a change in the narrative to make her more relatable. If when Joel saved her life she started to question her plan, her friends met up with them and did the torturing of Joel, and she was reluctantly forced to kill Joel, I think the audience would have seen her differently. You don't create a character who is happy to commit genocide, goes on to torture and kill a man, has no problem sleeping with her pregnant friend's man, and then get to pretend that the difference between her and Joel/Ellie is a matter of perspective.

by omorissette 2 months ago

You said everything I wanted to say. This is the legitimate criticism of the game.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Yeah, all the emotions the game tried to made me feel felt forced. Like, instead of building up Ellie's change of mind on revenge or actually make her live with the consequences of fulfilling her revenge, she just magically changes her mind at the end. This game reminds me to that moment in Spec Ops: The Line where you have to commit a war crime to continue the campaign and then the game blames the player for doing it because "you had a choice" even if that choice is stupid.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

A lot of the criticism I read of the game basically reads like "ME LIKE JOEL! THAT MEAN SHOULD NOT DIE! HULK SMASH!"

by Personal-Hamster 2 months ago

And? Who likes their favorite character and main character to suddenly die?

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Yeah, if you can't read. Most criticism was that the pacing and the way they told the story was ass.

by Trick-Emergency 2 months ago

Then you are free to enjoy bad stories

by Trick-Emergency 2 months ago

No, the game is objectively good. The game design and gameplay are good. The story is good. The split narrative is inventive. People are just butt hurt over the shift in narrative and dont want to play as a yucky girl.

by Jadynkulas 2 months ago

That's the intelligible criticism. I've read plenty of that, too. That doesn't make the idiotic stuff I've found go away.

by Personal-Hamster 2 months ago

Nah.

by Trick-Emergency 2 months ago

Yup. You aren't the sole authority of what is or isn't good. Try again.

by Whole_Phone_7394 2 months ago

You got it. No need to try again.

by Trick-Emergency 2 months ago

Yes, we indeed agree that you are incorrect.

by Trick-Emergency 2 months ago

I feel really bad for you, true.

by Trick-Emergency 2 months ago

Your opinion is wrong from the start tho. Joel wasn't just some random mentor of ellie. He was the first FATHER FIGURE and later ADOPTIVE FATHER of ellie. There is a world of difference between the two

by merritt92 2 months ago

None of these people listed were random mentors.

by richmonddavis 2 months ago

Lol@your opinion is wrong.

by Agreeable_Citron 2 months ago

It's been 4 years. At this point it's on you.

by Trick-Emergency 2 months ago