Would You Rather Live on the Moon or Live Under the Sea?

Was a big fan of Verne's 20,000 leagues as a kid. I love Jacques Cousteau and Sea Hunt too.


Let us step back a minute. I am discussing an ideal not the world as we know it. So to answer your questions in this framework of that ideal:

2) God is dead. No one "owns" them, they are here to be shared cooperatively. Construction does not "need" to be authorized, because NOBODY owns anything, not god, not me, not Donald Trump. All things are here to be shared // cooperatively. //

3) You do not need to defend "things" because no one owns them. If they want to share them they can. People who don't own them don't miss them when someone else is using them.

4) Again in the ideal, it was built cooperatively by the people who wanted to build it.
Now, in the real world of course, everything is owned as soon as it is found (finders keepers); as in South America was "owned" by the Spanish and Portuguese Crowned families, until little-by-little they gain their "independence".
So yes, the house I live in today is "owned", in the legal sense, by the bank that I pay mortgage to, and some day, they hope, they will hand me the title and I will "own" it. However I have no stake in that game. I personally could care less if I ever have the title.
If you want this house come take it. If the bank wants it back, that becomes your problem not mine. "But Cowboy Bob's name is on the mortgage" you will say - so it is. Fuck the bank. Fuck the Mortgage, fuck the title. Take the house, sue me, take the money in my possession, I don't own the money anyways, it belongs to Caesar.
What is the worst they can do to me? Rendition? Doubtful in the US. Force me to learn Chinese? Labor camp? Who gives a shit.

Anyway it has been fun. The OP is about what people know. I stand by my opinion that few, if any "Libertarians" know anything of William Belsham or Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.

I enjoyed my attempt to explain "life without ownership" as a vision of a better way of being.
But now this discussion has deteriorated into the question of what "ownership: means, and my answer is (in this ideal) ownership means nothing except to those who cherish it as a mean of assessing their self worth.

Can a person actually eat prayers?
@AngryAmericanish LOL

God is dead. Let us not destroy the Earth he left us.

Can a person actually eat prayers?
Can a person actually eat prayers?
@Visigothicreign Ah, I get it. Special people are people too! You guys are some of the biggest assets to our society.

These are the laws of your God Satan. You might follow them if you profess to be his minion.

Can a person actually eat prayers?
@Visigothicreign So prayers can be drank?

That's silly. One can neither eat nor drink prayers.
We do not need to pray, but pray hurts nothing.
The lord has set our table with an abundance of food and fresh water, yet we have soiled it. Defecating in the streams and infesting our cattle with poison. Give up your prayers, give up your modern ways. Eat of the flowers in the field and the fawn and the fowl, then you shall know the Lord's bounty.

@Visigothicreign Your point? The Republicans and Democrats of today are nothing like the original Republicans and Democrats of the past.

1) Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2) Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3) When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4) If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5) Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6) Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7) Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
8) Do not harm little children.
9) Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
10) When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Can a person actually eat prayers?

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

Thou preparest a table before me; my cup runneth over.


You are stuck in your notion of ownership.
Break free!

I did not say my clothes, I said "my back" they are not my clothes but it is my back, the clothes belong to no one. I did not say I would give them to you, I said "help yourself". I did not say "my" house, I said "the home where I live." It is yours if you want it, I do not own it. Etc.

Nothing is mine.

I did not say I would give you the things God put here, I said I would "share what I find". He left them here to be found and shared, not coveted and owned.


We are not far apart, you and I.
Alas it is but a dream. Humanity is too far gone into the Hellenistic framework of ideas. There was a time, in theory, when peoples live as we dream, as hunter/gatherers, as bushmen and tribal colonies.
No more. Our Lord tried to teach us, he and his cousin John, but even that glorious Word was corrupted by Hellen's language and turned into an enterprise to acquire worldly goods: the conquest and the tithe compounded to destroy His vision of a selfless people.


My body is not property, so that is not up for grabs. In modern society I have no expectation of privacy. All my e-mails and letters are "discoverable", and thanks to the patriot act anything I do or say can be recorded via cellphone mic-and-camera or the nearest laptop. So forget any notion that I have anything "private."

And yes, if you want the clothes off my back, they are yours, you want the home where I live or the car I drive or picture frame on the wall, help yourself. I live as our Lord Jesus did, ask for my cloak and I give it, and my shirt as well. The Lord provides for me, I shall not want.

What is here on the earth is a gift from Him, I do not own it, and I will share what I find with my fellows.

@irish thats not where the idea ob libertarian party came from. it started as an arm of big business lobbying.

libertarian (n.)
1789: "one who holds the doctrine of freewill"
(opposed to necessitarian)
1878: "person advocating liberty in thought and conduct"
1971 U.S. Libertarian Party founded in Colorado

The point of this post is that MOST people don't know who those guys were. Your downvote implies that you believe most people DO know who they were.

But I see your point.
Most people also don't understand that modern libertarian anti-regulation and anti-labor stance is brokered by huge businesses and pro-corporate influences. It is not at all about liberty for the working person, it is about liberty for the fat-cat industrialist.

My point is that if we are going to use a word, we should at least understand its origins and meaning and not let some propagandist co-opt the word for their own personal gain.

@irish they lived in another century and country.

Yes they did. So did Jesus Christ and John Smith, should we pretend the ideas they put forth are meaningless?