Just because God gave us free will doesn't mean he can't interfere with the results of our actions, amirite?

He can let someone throw their baby in a dumpster, thus exercising their free will. Then he can save the baby instead of letting it starve in there. Not the best example, but the point is there.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

What do you mean interfere? Whatever you choose to do with free will is a part of "God's plan" and he already knows what you're going to do.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

one of the many contradictions

by Anonymous 14 years ago

how is that possible? it's not free will if it's already planned.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

You're not forced to choose one thing over the other. You can do however you please, but God ultimately knows what you're going to choose.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Then you can only choose what God has planned for you to choose.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Not sure if this means anything more telling you this is coming from an atheist, but the alleged free will contradiction to god's omniscience is a poor argument. Please try and understand that although his omniscience allows him to see every outcome from every point of view, we ourselves do not have this ability. Meaning our "free will" is not affected by anything. Free will does not have the power to escape prediction.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I understand what you're saying in that god can see how it will turn out no matter what you do, and I get that. But what I don't get is how people can say we have complete free will but god already knows exactly what we're going to do. You just can't say we can do whatever we want if it's already all planned out. And if there is in fact a plan for everyone, why do some turn away, like I did?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

"But what I don't get is how people can say we have complete FREE WILL but god already knows exactly what we're going to do." Apparently you don't understand, since you just repeated back to me the very point I demonstrated to be false. Are you aware of what free will is? Free will is the ability to make any kind of choice; [or] decision without alteration, and while if it were fact an omniscient god were watching we couldn't do otherwise, our inability to be capable of this feat of omniscience (a logical contradiction to thought processes in itself) does in no way, shape, or form affect our very own "ability to make any kind of choice; [or] decision without alteration", a.k.a. "free will". There are plenty of great arguments against the existence of this god; this is not one of them.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

What you were telling me though is that god knows every outcome, which yes, I understand how that would work. It seems now you're going to the 'well, it's god so we can't possibly know' argument, which is fine I guess, but that just doesn't answer my question. But do you see where I'm coming from when I say if we have complete free will (everything we do is voluntary, no one can make our choices for us) that there can't be a 'plan' that tells exactly what we're going to do in life? Then it's no longer free will, it becomes god's will. I have a feeling that no matter what anyone says, it will never make this contradiction make sense to me because I just don't believe any of it is possible.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Sorry, I have yet to step foot into the zone of the ever so infamous excuse known as the 'beyond comprehension' rebuttal as you have purported. Twice have I demonstrated with consistent logic that this specific argument of the alleged contradiction between human free will and the christian god is a flawed one; yet you've failed to comprehend the points I was actually making and you still seem to be convinced the objection is unquestionably perfect. I'm an atheist myself, and as I've stated while there are much greater arguments against the existence of this god, this is simply NOT one of them, and ~certainly~ does not mean all atheistic arguments are immune to scrutiny themselves.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Not arguing for the Christian god. The way I know it, though, is that while God has a plan for us - a reason for us being put here on Earth - we may or may not follow it. It's in our best interest to follow it, and while we'll never know what it is, I guess you get there by being the best person you can be.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

god doesn't exist.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Says AtheisticMystic?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I was thinking the same thing.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Yes...

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I love how you make it sound as though he actually exists. It's pretty hilarious.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I love how you make it seem like you know he doesn't.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Well if you keep asserted he does without proof, we're gonna keep rejecting him.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Nothing has proof. You can't bash what others believe, when you have no idea what is true or not.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

anything can have proof. I have proof that "Magestic_merman" exists. Where is this proof? Well on this post you can see he has made two comments.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

*she :P but I mainly ment religious views.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

We're not talking about religious views. We're talking about whether or not he exists. Like I said, I hve ample proof that you exist

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Yes. But you have no proof that He doesn't exsist.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I have no proof he exists?sorry, it's your burden of proof to prove something, not mine. What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof. And that's what I'm doing, I'm dismissing and I don't need proof to do so because youdont have proof either. Also, I'm smarter than you. I don't have proof of that, but you don't have proof I'm not. So therfore, I must be. See how illogical that is?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

You may be smarter than me, you might not. You don't know. See my point is that you don't know what happens after you die so you can't say anyone is wrong. You can disagree, but you don't know who is right for sure.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Exactly. You don't know. So if you wantto brig up te idea that tere is a god, then you prove it. And unless you prove it, then chances are it doesn't exist. Chances are you don't believe the Rainbow-Coloured Penguin exists. Well that's very stupid of you because there isn't any proof it doesn't exist. Shame on you for assuming it doesn't exist. You don't have any proof it doesn't.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Proof that God exsist? It's called the Bible. You don't believe it? That's your opinion.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

If the bible counts as proof of him existing, then the book "the God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins counts as proof that he doesn't exist. So HA!, he doesn't exist. Told you. See how stupid it is to use a book as somehow "proof"? My, you've got a lot to learn.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

"My, you've got a lot to learn" don't call me stupid for my belief. For me, the Bible is proof enough.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Just because I say you have alot to leanr doesn't mean I said you were stupid. I have a lot of learn about medicine and life. Everyone does. Does that make us stupid? Stop getting your panties up in a knot by claiming something that isn't true. It's pathetic. "For me the bible is enough". Yea, and for the rest of the world, atleast in science (you know, the stuff that powers your computer and access to Amirite), it's not enough. You may not be stupid but you're pretty self centered; assuming that what works for you should work universally and be accepted in any debates/convos about God's existence.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

the bible was written by people who thought that they lived to be 900 years old. by people who thought some dude lived in a big fish for three days or however long. by people who thought that the universe was only three thousand years old at the time. by people who were by no means holy. the old testament written over two thousand years ago. the new testament was written over a period of three hundred years by close to 50 different people and no one even knows who. and you people believe this book? you may as well believe that Harry potter is the way. religion is just an excuse for people who don't understand science and what has been proven. even the pope has admitted that the universe is probably 14 billion years old because he's starting to realize it's all fucking retarded. believe me I've read the book and it's all pretty ridiculous. except revelations, I like that book

by Anonymous 14 years ago

God told those people back then what they needed to hear, it's like the chain o command, on a need to know kind of basis you know?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

(mattreynolds):Just because people choose to live their lives by a religion and believe in God doesn't mean they don't understand science. I for one am studying mechanical engineering, which is extremely science based, and I believe in God. The world isn't black and white you know.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Just because you don't believe in God doesn't give you the right to bash religious people and their religion, you don't know what happens after you die, you may be right, but you just as well might be wrong.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

There is no proof of anything, true. But there are facts indicating that there is no God. No 100% proof, but many...hints. I'm saying this in a totally non-hostile way.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

that is true, sometimes, But there are also hints that he does exist.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

True. But (in my opinion) that's because we don't yet have the tools and knowledge to explain those without God.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

anything can have proof. I have proof that "Magestic_merman" exists. Where is this proof? Well on this post you can see he has made two comments.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

but how can it be true when other things disprove it?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Two percent of the world is atheist. Ninety-eight percent of the world believes in some higher being. I have to think that there might be something in every person that just kind of hopes that there is something bigger than our world. Something more than the pettiness and injustice that happens during our mortal lives. And if you've ever wondered, "What if...?" you know what I'm talking about. There's a part in every person that wonders.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Not me...and not Christopher Hitchens, or Richard Dawkins.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

You've never in your life thought, "is there a God?"

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Its not impossible. Especially if you're an Atheist that grew up in a nonreligiois background and never thought of God until you were old enough to make a decision and think " no, he doesn't exist" atleast, that's how it was for me

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Well see, you've thought about it. Which just kind of proves that there's a part in everyone that even thinks about it. It's a natural thing for people to think about. That's what I was trying to say; it might have been unclear. Yeah, I said it weirdly.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Yes, I have, but then I thought it out in my head and came to the conclusion that no, it's not possible. I did have a doubt, but then I thought about it, and now I have no doubts at all.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

You *believe* it is not possible. To me it makes more sense that there is a God, but this would be a really long discussion of steps to how I got there. Plus it's also how you interpret facts and proof. You believe that there isn't one; I believe that there is. We both undoubtably have proof. Maybe even the same proof, but we wont know in all certainty unless a.) God is directly revealed to our faces, wiping out all uncertainty, or b.) we die and find out. It's something we hold to be factual, but we believe it's factual. One thing I know for fact is that neither one of us will change our minds unless we want to or have to.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

We can't both have proof. Proof, by definition, proves something. Both sides can't be proven.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

The "proof" is what we think shows that there is or isn't a God. The things that lead us to the conclusion. It can be proven to us personally because of how we interpret the "proof". You're going with the letter of what I'm saying and not the spirit of what I'm saying.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Had I never been told by everyone throughout my childhood upbringing that yes indeed there is a god, and no I don't have proof but here is a book that says so, then I would never have thought, hey there may just be some man in the clouds.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

if god exists then why does he let certain things go on? the plague, disaster, WWII, why doesn't he appear and save us all?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

"God has a plan". That's the argument that theists generally use there.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

if he loves us so much then why does he permit our suffering? that's his plan? some "god"

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I agree, I'm just saying that that's what they say..

by Anonymous 14 years ago

He says He loves us, he never says he's gonna treat us like pampered poodles.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Because god said he would not interfere with humans after the great flood

by Anonymous 14 years ago

What about the little kids in African tribes who were never told of god and never had the chance for salvation? Do they go to hell?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

No, of course not. Even someone who is told about God, but does not have the ability or the grace necessary to believe it can go to heaven.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

So does god have a little book of rules that says when it's ok for someone who doesn't believe in him to go to heaven?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Yeah, it's called the Bible. He also has an understanding of people. Why would a wise and infinite God condemn someone who was innocent or unable to accept Him because of extenuating circumstances? Hm? Yeah, I just screwed your little "how could he condemn children?" theory didn't I?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Why would he not provide the people in Africa a way of learning about him and enlightening their lives? Is it because retail stores that sell his words in the form or books don't exist if third world countries?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

He did! It's called missionaries! But not everyone is going to be able to be told because it's up to humans to spread the religion and individuals to accept it. There are hidden tribes in Brazil that we are just now finding. And He knows that it's not always feasible with human means, so He is merciful and just. He revealed the truth, but He can't do everything for us. Because not everyone can be told, He is understanding and will not condemn them for their involuntary ignorance.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

He spoke to Abraham and all those people back in the day, why can't he speak to them? If he is omnipotent and omnipresent then why are the main followers of his religion mainly in Europe and north America?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Because if God spoke to us, then he would be revealing himself, thus eliminating faith. Faith means that there is no real reason to believe in something, other than you "feel it", or "you just know". You're supposed to believe in God without him actually appearing to you.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

That sort of thinking was so ingeniously invited by whoever came up with Christianity. I mean really now, it's a baseless religion where people blindly follow and openly admit that they do. And everything good is automatically believed to be an act of god and everything else is part of his plan. I think that the idea of religion is good, an idea where you can just believe that everything will be ok in the worst of situations, but to the extent that the rules of religion are followed and believed in are astounding

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Because that was where the Roman empire was centralized (Europe) and many European immigrants moved to North America. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world and not only in these continents. God can't do everything for you, there is a bit of faith. He does reveal things to an extent. I get the most profound feeling when I go to church that just tells me that it's the right place for me. And when science explains the creation of the universe, it proves to me that there has to be a God. God hasn't directly said to me, "Courtney, I am here, worship me," but I see His presence in the universe around me. It's the way I interpret life, I guess. But I din't blindly follow everything. I ask myself if it makes sense to me. The pastor was actually talking in his homily about how we aren't supposed to be blind sheep who believe everything they're told. Don't insult me or think that I am stupid because I follow religion. Your comments imply that.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I'm sorry i didn't mean to infer that you were stupid for following religion. I have just found that in debates/arguments it is best to be on the far opposing side, if you want to get the best rebuttles. Anyway, I'm curious to know what sort of profound feeling you get from going to church, I was raised going to church and I was confirmed and all the things prior to that, but I never saw the real need for me to go to church. In my mind I just see a man who interprets what he has heard/read and makes his own spin of it all, for instance some pastors may be very strict about the religion and tell the congragation that they need to follow every word to the T in order to get to heaven, where as some may be very lax about it, and say that god is an understanding god and that no one is perfect therefor perfection can not be expected. Now these contradicting ideas in the same religion just don't make sense to me. Alright, got that first thing taken care of, and I would just like to say tha...

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I'm sorry i didn't mean to infer that you were stupid for following religion. I have just found that in debates/arguments it is best to be on the far opposing side, if you want to get the best rebuttles. Anyway, I'm curious to know what sort of profound feeling you get from going to church, I was raised going to church and I was confirmed and all the things prior to that, but I never saw the real need for me to go to church. In my mind I just see a man who interprets what he has heard/read and makes his own spin of it all, for instance some pastors may be very strict about the religion and tell the congragation that they need to follow every word to the T in order to get to heaven, where as some may be very lax about it, and say that god is an understanding god and that no one is perfect therefor perfection can not be expected. Now these contradicting ideas in the same religion just don't make sense to me. Alright, got that first thing taken care of, and I would just like to say tha...

by Anonymous 14 years ago

aw fuck can you read all that or does it cut out half way?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Damn this limit on characters I had three times that amount to say. Oh well let's start with whatever you can read

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Yeah, it cut off but oh well. What religion are you? When you say confirmed I think Catholic. Some priests give better homilies than others, so that can play into it. But when I sit there and I just kind of open my mind and maybe my heart and think, God is here. In the tabernacle. And I think of all the good things in my life or in this world. I think about how much God loves every one of us. And how there's a justice in this world, even when things are bad. And I get a flood of emotions, which is weird for me because I'm not usually very emotional. I don't like to cry in public and such. You just have to open yourself up and be willing. (general you) I get goosebumps. And when the priests talk about how we're suposed to love and forgive each other and be selfless, it touches me. It's just so true. Also some priests are more orthodox than others. They're also human so they can make mistakes even though they should be teaching what church actually teaches.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I was raised catholic, but I am agnostic. I guess I'm just a skeptic, and because there have always been so many conflicting religions and believes in the world, there is no logical way to say which is right, im sure you believe your religion to be the eight one and therefor you are saying that all others must be wrong in some way. I just don't see how someone could have such complete faith in something that has so little backing it up.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I feel like I have a lot to back it up though. Honestly, I would probably have to put together a flow chart to explain it unless I was answering specific questions. I converted to Catholicism though. My mom baptized me but she does not believe in the Catholic church at all. My father is protestant, and very fundamentalist. Part of my family is Catholic and I live in an area with a lot of Catholic people, so I see how they act and it kind of warms it to me. But at the same time it also logically makes sense to me.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Do you believe your religion, is right and that others are wrong

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Yes. To different degrees. I believe in only one God. So I believe that Judaism was correct. That (because it is the oldest monotheistic religion) it was when God first revealed Himself. I also believe that Jesus is the Messiah, because he performed miracles and spread ideas that were able to change the entire world. I also agree with those ideas. Then because in the Bible it says that God's Church will not go wrong, I believe in Catholicism because it was the first Christian church set up by Jesus, his disciples, and other early church founders and members. The laws of God stated by the Catholic church make sense to me and I can see reasons why the sins are bad and stuff. Plus, I feel something supernatural.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

But unless you are a theologian who has extensively studied all other religions you can't educationally say that yours, or any other religion is correct or incorrect. It is ignorance to the full extent of the word

by Anonymous 14 years ago

No, it's not. I know the basic teachings of the other religions, and I don't believe in them. I also believe in only one God. So why would I have to study it? Then you're saying only superintelligent theologian experts can find religions, and that is not the majority of the world. It's not ignorant. Ignorance would be not even knowing about them. I do have friends who have different religions than me. I kind of get the basics. Catholicism is what I believe to be right, based upon its teaching and its history.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

It all depends on where you were born and live. If you were born in the middle east you would likely be Muslim, if you were born in America or europe, you would likely be some catholic, Christian, or other like religion. If you were born in asia, well I don't know much about those crazy religions, but you wouldn't be muslim or Christian or anything. Tell me I'm wrong.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

Really nice of you to call animism, taoism, Hinduism, and Buddhism crazy religions. I know that people in the world will have different religions, even though there are Christians and Jews in the Middle East, so it's not uncommon. But that's why I don't yell at people for having different beliefs. I understand it. It's also why I hope that it isn't absolutely necessary to believe in Catholicism to go to Heaven; that hopefully God will be merciful, or else 5/6 of the world is going to Hell. But who honestly follows a religion they think is wrong, hm? What then? Is it just for the hell of it? No. Everyone believes they're right, and everyone is different, which is why we have to be accepting and tolerant of all people. If I accept you for being agnostic, you have to accept that I'm Catholic. You have to be tolerant of all people, not just the people you agree with.

by Anonymous 14 years ago

That's an interesting point that I've thought about for a long time. I think those people who don't believe in God, but never deny His existence (if that makes sense) are given the choice when they reach their judgement day to say "Yes, God, You are real and I believe and I want to go to Heaven and be with You." That's just the way I like to think about it.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

After the great flood God said he will not interfere with anything anymore

by Anonymous 14 years ago

I'm no theologist and correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the bible say that god sent his son to save us all hence interfering with humans? Jesus took place after the flood according to the book no?

by Anonymous 14 years ago

well i will answer your question by asking you another, is god not all powerful and all knowing? So wouldnt he have known that he would interfere after he said he would not interfere anymore? So his later interfering was going to take place whether or not he said he would no longer interfere. Yea, just mind fuck tha shit out of you

by Anonymous 14 years ago

You seem to have a habit of doing that. Adn very well, I might add.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The proof God exists is all around you. How did this all form? Where did we come from? And for the idiots that say evolution is where we came from, even IF that was remotely true, then where would the apes have come from? Exactly.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

That's not even what this post is about. But alright: That isn't proof of God. For all you know, we were created by a magic bunny. Just because we're here doesn't mean God did it. Maybe something else supernatural did. How do you know it was your one specific God? And don't say the Bible, cuz I could just as easily write a holy book about the bunny.

by Anonymous 13 years ago