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I think it's just a bunch of people that are angry that they don't have money. I watched a video and a lot of them talked about voting for very different people. Some said Romney, some said they would vote for Obama again. It's kind of messed up. People just want to have things and they think that they have a right to own everything.

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Chankles Chankles

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Bi-racial children are beautiful!!! How can you say that? And if you're not racist, why on earth would you not support inter-racial marriages?

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Chankles Chankles

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I would still say that it depends on the situation. For example, say a homeless person had to steal some food to feed their starving children, is that morally wrong? Or would it be morally wrong for them to let their children die of malnutrition.

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SpearmintMilk SpearmintMilk

In response to “I would still say that it depends on the...

Obviously it would be morally wrong for someone to let their children die. I don't think anyone would or should argue that the parent shouldn't steal and let the kids die of starvation. The difference between that form of stealing and the form of stealing that I'm talking about is that stealing to feed your starving children has a just cause behind it. The stealing and killing that I'm talking about is purely for hte benefit of the thief or the murderer. But I think I've been a bit unclear on this whole issue. Let me clear up a bit. What I am trying to say is that in order for people to have morals, there has to be some sort of standard or principle that they operate off of that does not come from themselves. It's useless when people make laws purely from what they want, because as soon as those laws work against what the people want, the law can be changed in a snap, thus changing moral standards, thus allowing there to be no lasting moral. Is that a bit clearer?

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Chankles Chankles

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I think this entire debate has reached a point where we're just running in a circle.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “I think this entire debate has reached a...

Maybe. I dunno. I'm still confused on how you think the world works though. But even so, thanks for the conversation. :)

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Chankles Chankles

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No problem. OK forget exactly what we're currently discussing. I mean I know the topic, but I don't really understand what the disagreement is right Noe.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “No problem. OK forget exactly what we're...

I think where we're differing is that I think that there is an ultimate morality, and you're saying that every one has the freedom to define their own morality. What I was saying recently is that the questions of morality are questions of philosophy. They address the issue of how man should live. My point was that if someone has really messed up morals, then they have a really messed up philosophy. This all to prove my idea that there can only be one right morality, because there is only one good way to live.

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Chankles Chankles

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Morality is what you think is right or wrong. Not philosophical truths.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “Morality is what you think is right or wrong...

By the way, thanks for debating this with me. It's really insightful. I love debates like these. :)

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Chankles Chankles

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Morality is what you think is right or wrong. Not philosophical truths.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “Morality is what you think is right or wrong...

Well philosophy is the love and pursuit of wisdom. That means that we ask the big questions like, "How should man live?" That means that we ask questions of morality, right? Questions of morality are inherently philosophical. So like I said earlier, if we come to the wrong philosophical conclusions, then we will have equally messed up morals.

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Chankles Chankles

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There being no definite right or wrong is a fact. I'm saying there is no right or wrong morally.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “There being no definite right or wrong is a...

But morality is based on evidence of how we think the world works right? If our perception of philosophical truths are off, then our morals will be equally messed up. Sure there are scientific facts that we can be certain of, but I'm talking about the bigger philosophical, universal facts.

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Chankles Chankles

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There. Is. No. Right.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “There. Is. No. Right.

Are you sure? Because if you make the claim that there is no right, then you would have to be right, proving that your claim of there being no right is wrong.

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Chankles Chankles

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That's not right, it's the popular opinion.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “That's not right, it's the popular opinion.

So you're saying that right is determined by popular opinion. Then how is it that we get so many different values and morals all over the world. They can't all be right can they?

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Chankles Chankles

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There is no "right"! Just because the majority says so doesn't make it right, it makes it what everyone has to live by and deal with!

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “There is no "right"! Just because the...

So you would say that there is a sense of "right" in the universe, it's just that we have to conform to what the government or the majority tells us regardless of what is actually right?

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Chankles Chankles

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That's called a democracy.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “That's called a democracy.

Yes. But I think where we differ is a democracy founded on what principles? What I hear you saying is that there is no right or wrong so whatever the majority just happen to agree on is right. If that's the case, then the majority can change society just as easily as it can create and form society for better or for worse, often for worse.

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Chankles Chankles

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I know. But the majority vote will still control your actions through threat of punishment.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “I know. But the majority vote will still...

So I can't actually have my own sense of morality? Are you saying that have to believe the majority's opinions because they have the power to punish me? That sounds a lot like every dictator who's ever lived. It's a dictatorship of the people.

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Chankles Chankles

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The holocaust wasn't a majority vote. It was kept secret from most of the German people because Hitler knew they wouldn't like it. Sure, they didn't like the Jews, but they didn't want to exterminate them. And the thing that stops you from inventing your own twisted morality is the majority. If the majority doesn't want it, they won't stand for it and you will not be able to enforce your morals.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “The holocaust wasn't a majority vote. It was...

That is most definitely not true. Every German knew that Hitler wanted to create an Arian race of white-skinned, blonde-haired people. He gave several speeches to the people talking about this exact idea. Hitler and the Nazi party, which was dominating the German country at the time, wanted to completely exterminate the Jews. What I'm trying to get at is that the majority can be swayed to believe something that is obviously wrong and grotesque.

On the issue of inventing your own morality, I can say, believe and act however I want. The only thing that is stopping me are the people who have the might to restrain and stop me from acting. That, however, does not change my perception of morals and reality. I still believe that it is ok for me to murder. There's nothing that anyone can say or do to me to convince me otherwise, not even a majority vote.

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Chankles Chankles

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If your morality will infringe on others, they can't let you do that. You can have whatever morals you want, but practicing them publicly is another story. If your morality differs from the law, you can't do that.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “If your morality will infringe on others...

But you can't help but let your morals and ideas influence your actions right? What I hear you saying is that everyone can invent their own morality separate from anyone else's influence. However, when I think of that, what's stopping someone from inventing a really terrible morality and enforcing it on others? Lots of people believe ideas that are wrong all the time. I think that's what I meant to point out when I mentioned the Nazi regime. There was most definitely a majority vote when it came to Naziism, but that didn't justify the fact that several million people were murdered.

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Chankles Chankles

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Screw majority. The point is that the lack of belief in a god doesn't mean you're immoral. Our morals are not written in stone, it's interpretable. People use reason to discuss how certain things are moral and immoral, usually depending on if it is harmful and destructive.

Murder is obviously harmful and destructive, reason has told us murder is immoral. Homosexuality is obviously not harmful and not destructive, most reasonable people will agree that it is not immoral. Our views on morals change over time, religious texts such as the Bible don't. So, in a sense, morality without the Bible is more reasoned, modern, improved because there has been discussion on it, compared to biblical teachings, because that never changes.

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Moose Moose

In response to “Screw majority. The point is that the lack of...

I'm not saying you need to believe in a god to be moral. Aristotle was a very moral man who believed in being the "magnanimous man." He tried to b the greatest in everything he did From being moral, to being athletic. But Aristotle also knew that morals come from other than ourselves.

But aside from that, I want to ask a question. If morals change over time, does that mean that the truth from those moral claims changes as well? Do truth and lies eventually change too?

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Chankles Chankles

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But they do, and it does. What you're saying can't happen is happening.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “But they do, and it does. What you're saying...

Yes it is happening around us. America is functioning out of the idea that every person can invent his own morality. I'm just confused on the ida of if I can invent my own morality, how dare someone infringe on my sense of reality and enforce their own morals onto me?

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Chankles Chankles

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Exactly! So we've come to an agreement?

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “Exactly! So we've come to an agreement?

Not really. People know that they have rights not because a public opinion gives it to them, but because they know that they have rights separate from themselves. If each individual can have his own sense of right or wrong of whatever they think, society really can't function.

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Chankles Chankles

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No, they can't take away those rights, because there would be a revolution.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “No, they can't take away those rights...

Woops. I meant to put the Constitution in the parentheses there. Anyway, you're right. the government would never even consider taking away our American rights because the people would revolt as you said. People would revolt because they know that they have rights that people cannot take away from them not matter how powerful a government or another person may be.

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Chankles Chankles

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Yes, we do. And we got them because the people wanted them. It was decided by the government that every citizen should have certain rights, so other gave us those rights. And now if they don't protect those rights, the people get outraged, so they're forced to uphold the rights that they gave us.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “Yes, we do. And we got them because the...

So if the government gives us freedom by means of a piece of paper (the declaration of independence), then couldn't the government take away those rights just as easily? The government could just as easily take away rights and turn into a dictatorship as it could give rights to the people and be what America is today. Nazi is a good example of this. Adolf Hitler was an excellent speaker who was able to manipulate the German people into not thinking and just obeying him. Because of that, Hitler was able to go around and execute hundreds of thousands of people.

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Chankles Chankles

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That, and it keeps an orderly society.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “That, and it keeps an orderly society.

Alright then let me ask you this, do you think that we, as Americans, have rights? If so, how did we get them?

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Chankles Chankles

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Because if you don't, you'll be arrested. And morally, you agree with the law, right? So why not follow it if you agree with it?

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “Because if you don't, you'll be arrested. And...

So basically the only reason that we should follow the law is because there are people who have the might to enforce those morals on us?

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Chankles Chankles

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In my opinion, it depends on his reasoning. I don't think you're understanding me. Right or wrong is an idea, not a fact.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “In my opinion, it depends on his reasoning. I...

So laws are not facts? Because every law is a moral claim right? If laws are not facts, then why should I bother taking my time and energy to follow them?

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Chankles Chankles

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Basically, yeah. People think that hurting innocent people is wrong, so we aren't allowed.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “Basically, yeah. People think that hurting...

But say there is no majority. If there were just two people on earth and one wanted to murder the other, would the murderer be right in doing so?

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Chankles Chankles

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Yes. There is no absolute right and wrong, it's all subjective. It just so happens that most of the works thinks murder is wrong.

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AtheisticMystic AtheisticMystic

In response to “Yes. There is no absolute right and wrong...

So there really is no reason to enforce the laws against murder is there? It's just a majority vote?

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Chankles Chankles

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