Oh, magical sky gypsie, please forgiveth me for I have sinned by voting nay on this post so thou must now sendeth me into a fiery undeground cave where red people with horns and tails poke me with pitchforks forever more.
I know your arguments will be something along the lines of "Well, how was God created? You think this because you're human... ect." but I just don't understand how everything can be created without divine intervention, and I know that the earth is small in a colossal universe and can be argued as random probability, but everything has to have some design to it. It makes more sense to say that something created everything rather than random material creating something. It makes more sense for an all powerful being to have been here first to coordinate creation rather than other material. I'm not shooting down the big bang theory or anything necessarily, it just doesn't matter as much how things came to be, creation, big bang theory and evolution, etc. just that God did it, in my opinion.
If god created the universe he would inevitably have to be more complex and less likely than the universe. By adding god to the equation you are not explaining anything you are rather making it more complicated. This is where occam's razor comes into play.
I really don't want to get in an argument, especially over the internet now because today has been such a long day, but I'd say it would be a simpler explanation that a superior being created everything. Since a deity was the first thing thought of to have created us by mankind's first civilizations rather than any scientific matter, wouldn't you think that is the simpler explanation?
But wouldn't it make more sense to say that something created the universe rather than it always be there? I know that would imply that an omniscient, omnipotent force was always there, but that makes more sense than a random universe.
"but that makes more sense than a random universe" How? It doesn't. Aside from that any theory that introduces supernatural elements automatically becomes much less likely. Alright this is kinda going in circles, have a nice day.
@633456: Hallucinations brought on by a combination of pain killers and severe exhaustion. Hallucinations are mostly linked to what you were thinking of last so it makes sense that when someone who is dying who believes in god goes under that they think they go to heaven. Just because your heart stops beating doesn't mean you are dead. Your brain is still active for a few minutes.
Actually, there have been cases of people dying and going to Heaven, but doctors and others brought them back to life and they came back and told everyone... There are books about it and everything. So technically, there IS proof. What's YOUR valid arguement for saying "Heaven isn't real"?
Actually, Christians believe that that's the exact reason why he was born. To voluntarily die for us, so that we can sin and still have a chance to go to heaven
Haha it was proven? Don't make me laugh. You do not understand anything if you believe that. It cannot be proven. To be proven, it must be testable. Is it testable? No. It's a theory. It isn't even a good theory, as they don't have an explanation for how it started. A super powerful being is much more logical.
Any intelligent person would realize that nothing cannot become something, no matter how long it sits there. In the absence of everything, how could something form? Tell me. I want to know. How could something come from absolutely nothing. No air, no atoms, nothing.
I agree with you on this point, for the record, "big bang and shit like that" have not been proven, that guy was stupid for saying that.
But if you're really curious, look into string theory; string theorists don't like the idea of "something from nothing" so you may find that interesting.
Dude, you're an idiot. Religious beliefs are founded on faith, not proof. You can't "disprove" God, because he's existence isn't based on whether or not you can prove it. Does that make sense? It's fine if you don't believe in him, I don't really care, but don't demand proof for something that you cannot prove.
Theories however, ARE proof based, but religion isn't theory.
I guess, to make it more concise, I'm saying that Creationism is not the same as Christianity.
Creationism is for those who believe in God but require some sort of scientific evidence to believe in him, and I just believe that believing in God isn't about how much evidence you can find to support your belief, it's just how much faith you have that he existed.
Creation yes. THAT's a theory, but religion isn't. He's talking about God, while creationism merely involves a 'higher being' and not necessarily the God that Christians believe in.
I know what you're saying, but this guy isn't saying Creationism is false, he's saying God doesn't exist, and I'm saying that God exists in the heart and minds of those who have faith in him, do you know what i mean?
I'll give you proof. But you just got pwned. You had to resort to demanding evidence cause your point was utterly ripped apart.
Do you agree that something cannot bring itself into existence? Something that does not exist cannot choose to be. Nothing can randomly appear without cause. Everything on this earth has a cause. Everything. People-sperm and egg. Things- manufacturing. Plants- seeds etc. This is logical and obvious.
Secondly, the universe hasn't existed forever. There is no controversy on this point. Really no need to argue about it; it is.
God had to bring the universe into existence. Or at least, something transcending time and physics, quantum mechanics, and basically the workings of our universe. In essence, God as described by the Bible.
God transcends time. He brought time into being; He was before time. We cannot comprehend this.
I wasn't clear.
God created time. He created everything. He existed forever. I'm not very articulate; but basically he has existed prior to everything.
Right. Acceptable, but what you're missing is that he's all powerful. We cannot understand the actions of one infinitely more intelligent than we. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
No, you're right. That doesn't make it true. That makes it the only explanation, which also lines up with logic and science. But if you choose to believe that nothing becomes something by means of nothing, feel free.
But is that even the point? So what, we cannot understand it. At least that's possible. Tell me, honestly, honestly, do you REALLY believe that something can come from nothing. Tell me.
I've told you why; it's not my problem that you don't understand.
Now YOU tell ME how the universe is created. Tell me how nothing can become everything. Tell me how nothing explodes.
I want to know how the big bang works. Nobody can explain it. And one guy up there said it was proved. Because scientists say it's verifiable fact, when it's not even a complete theory!!
ok but where did the very first traces of matter come from? like the dust particles that made the clouds and eventually elements in your above explanation. did they just make themselves? someone had to create them.
i definitely think god created the universe. think of it this way. if you take a billion disassembled watch parts, and put them in a paper bag and shook it up, will a watch come out? No. someone has to MAKE the watch.
Oh religious debates..@632279 (true_romantic): Yupppp there's a giant man out there skipping around and defying the laws of everything who just built everything on a whim..
Hahahah I like how THAT'S the thing you try to defend. But no, sorry. I'm not going to try to argue with you because it'll just take up time I could be using to do something else.
then don't complain about what i choose to highlight. i could tell you that god is greater than we can imagine and that he lives inside us as well as in heaven, because that's true. but i won't, because you don't care.
Both arguments can never really be proven. My point, no one can know what was before, we can all speculate and do all sorts of rock dating and all that. But that doesn't prove or disprove one or the other. Personaly I believe in some sort of higher being, but I dont think that over the entire course of the bible going through time, and peoples hands, it wasn't changed once. I can't believe something came from nothing, and neither, the big bang or the God theory really tell me what was floating around before they decided to finally do something. The thing that annoys me the most about the God of the bible, why create a place to burn for Eternity because I didn't worship you. To me it makes no since that a God that loves everyone would send them to a hell. And with that, if there is a God who has a 'plan' for your life, does that mean that he picks who goes to heavan and who goes to hell? That is the biggest thing that kills me on the God thing. And if the
Big Bang is true, other tha...
He gave us free will to decide whether or not to believe in Him. The ones that go to Hell are Satan's followers. Its not because they don't worship God but because they do worship Satan.
no, I'm sorry I worded that last one wrong. What I was saying is that Heaven is for God's followers and Hell is for those who don't follow God. My main point was that we have free will to choose whether or not we follow God.
Actually he died so we could have a personal relationship with God instead of having to go through a priest all the time for atonement. People in the Old Testament were still going to heaven before Jesus was around.
As far as my understanding of the Bible goes, the people who died before Jesus came all went to hell. When Jesus died, he collected the righteous from hell and brought them to heaven, opening the gates of heaven as he did so.
Right, so Moses and Elijah and Jacob and all those other righteous dudes who lived before Jesus was born didn't go to heaven? Also the "him" in that verse is God, since Jesus is a part of God.
No, we don't know. They're probably in heaven now, but the Bible isn't clear. But the foundation or Christianity is that Jesus came specifically to forgive our sins. Do not try to change that.
Oops I didn't see your last point.
You are so wrong. Nowhere in the Bible does it say God is also Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Nowhere. Because that isn't true.
Holy crap, there is seriously something wrong with you if you're denying the trinity. And clearly you're young and know all the answers so there's no point arguing with you.
I'm not denying the Trinity. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God. They all exist. They're not one being, though.
Show me in the Bible where it says that. THEN you may call me wrong.
Where does it say this? Nowhere? Stop making up stuff, and give me a reference verse.
It is my understanding that Jesus sits at God's shoulder. Tell me how this would he possible.
In short, you come in, express your stupidity, defend it with "my teacher says so!", and then bring up a point much debated.
Try reading before you post in order to express as little ignorance as you can.
Listen, the only one that could actually answer the question is John 10:30. I looked it up. That person is taking it out of context. Right before he says that he says "My Father who has given them to me is greater than all"
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." John 1:1
The Word is Jesus. Jesus is not the same as God. He is like God, but not the Creator.
Oh, magical sky gypsie, please forgiveth me for I have sinned by voting nay on this post so thou must now sendeth me into a fiery undeground cave where red people with horns and tails poke me with pitchforks forever more.
Go away.
Hahaha same here!
Jesus died because he realized what a dump the Earth was.
Failpost.
I know your arguments will be something along the lines of "Well, how was God created? You think this because you're human... ect." but I just don't understand how everything can be created without divine intervention, and I know that the earth is small in a colossal universe and can be argued as random probability, but everything has to have some design to it. It makes more sense to say that something created everything rather than random material creating something. It makes more sense for an all powerful being to have been here first to coordinate creation rather than other material. I'm not shooting down the big bang theory or anything necessarily, it just doesn't matter as much how things came to be, creation, big bang theory and evolution, etc. just that God did it, in my opinion.
I second this :)
If god created the universe he would inevitably have to be more complex and less likely than the universe. By adding god to the equation you are not explaining anything you are rather making it more complicated. This is where occam's razor comes into play.
I really don't want to get in an argument, especially over the internet now because today has been such a long day, but I'd say it would be a simpler explanation that a superior being created everything. Since a deity was the first thing thought of to have created us by mankind's first civilizations rather than any scientific matter, wouldn't you think that is the simpler explanation?
The simplest explanation would just be that the universe has always existed.
But wouldn't it make more sense to say that something created the universe rather than it always be there? I know that would imply that an omniscient, omnipotent force was always there, but that makes more sense than a random universe.
"but that makes more sense than a random universe" How? It doesn't. Aside from that any theory that introduces supernatural elements automatically becomes much less likely. Alright this is kinda going in circles, have a nice day.
Yeah, was about to suggest the same thing, and I didn't mean to force any views on you btw, just defending them. Goodbye.
@633456: Hallucinations brought on by a combination of pain killers and severe exhaustion. Hallucinations are mostly linked to what you were thinking of last so it makes sense that when someone who is dying who believes in god goes under that they think they go to heaven. Just because your heart stops beating doesn't mean you are dead. Your brain is still active for a few minutes.
Heaven is isn't real.
Actually, there have been cases of people dying and going to Heaven, but doctors and others brought them back to life and they came back and told everyone... There are books about it and everything. So technically, there IS proof. What's YOUR valid arguement for saying "Heaven isn't real"?
the mind plays ticks on you and could have easily imagined all of that.
Ugh. Keep your religion to your self.
AGREED.
I'm pretty sure dude wasn't like, "yeah sure, nail me to some boards and I'll die for everyone." voluntarily... I'm pretty sure he was murdered.
well he was willing to die for god so loved the world, because he knew it was in god's will. but yes, he was killed.
Actually, Christians believe that that's the exact reason why he was born. To voluntarily die for us, so that we can sin and still have a chance to go to heaven
haha totally agree...i mean no sane person would be like "all right s'cool, go ahead kill me! i'm feel'n it"
Everyone who doesn't believe that God exists should go to www.proofthatgodexists.org. Just check it out
I left at absolute morality. It didn't in any way prove that absolute morality must be true, only that it would be desirable for it to be true.
We are all human and will rot in the ground when we die. Amen.
Jesus saves
at walmart.
ahahahahahaha that was amazing
@632483 (Anonymous): @632483 (Anonymous): best post ever man :)
You're right; the universe is a by-product of nothing becoming something through nothing.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs....html#firstlaw
Haha it was proven? Don't make me laugh. You do not understand anything if you believe that. It cannot be proven. To be proven, it must be testable. Is it testable? No. It's a theory. It isn't even a good theory, as they don't have an explanation for how it started. A super powerful being is much more logical.
Any intelligent person would realize that nothing cannot become something, no matter how long it sits there. In the absence of everything, how could something form? Tell me. I want to know. How could something come from absolutely nothing. No air, no atoms, nothing.
I agree with you on this point, for the record, "big bang and shit like that" have not been proven, that guy was stupid for saying that.
But if you're really curious, look into string theory; string theorists don't like the idea of "something from nothing" so you may find that interesting.
Dude, you're an idiot. Religious beliefs are founded on faith, not proof. You can't "disprove" God, because he's existence isn't based on whether or not you can prove it. Does that make sense? It's fine if you don't believe in him, I don't really care, but don't demand proof for something that you cannot prove.
Theories however, ARE proof based, but religion isn't theory.
Creation is a theory. There's more evidence for God creating everything than nothing becoming something.
I guess, to make it more concise, I'm saying that Creationism is not the same as Christianity.
Creationism is for those who believe in God but require some sort of scientific evidence to believe in him, and I just believe that believing in God isn't about how much evidence you can find to support your belief, it's just how much faith you have that he existed.
I kinda understand. But really, Christianity requires belief in creationism. Which requires proof of a god, if which there is.
Creation yes. THAT's a theory, but religion isn't. He's talking about God, while creationism merely involves a 'higher being' and not necessarily the God that Christians believe in.
I know what you're saying, but this guy isn't saying Creationism is false, he's saying God doesn't exist, and I'm saying that God exists in the heart and minds of those who have faith in him, do you know what i mean?
I'll give you proof. But you just got pwned. You had to resort to demanding evidence cause your point was utterly ripped apart.
Do you agree that something cannot bring itself into existence? Something that does not exist cannot choose to be. Nothing can randomly appear without cause. Everything on this earth has a cause. Everything. People-sperm and egg. Things- manufacturing. Plants- seeds etc. This is logical and obvious.
Secondly, the universe hasn't existed forever. There is no controversy on this point. Really no need to argue about it; it is.
God had to bring the universe into existence. Or at least, something transcending time and physics, quantum mechanics, and basically the workings of our universe. In essence, God as described by the Bible.
God transcends time. He brought time into being; He was before time. We cannot comprehend this.
I wasn't clear.
God created time. He created everything. He existed forever. I'm not very articulate; but basically he has existed prior to everything.
Right. Acceptable, but what you're missing is that he's all powerful. We cannot understand the actions of one infinitely more intelligent than we. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
No, you're right. That doesn't make it true. That makes it the only explanation, which also lines up with logic and science. But if you choose to believe that nothing becomes something by means of nothing, feel free.
But is that even the point? So what, we cannot understand it. At least that's possible. Tell me, honestly, honestly, do you REALLY believe that something can come from nothing. Tell me.
I've told you why; it's not my problem that you don't understand.
Now YOU tell ME how the universe is created. Tell me how nothing can become everything. Tell me how nothing explodes.
I want to know how the big bang works. Nobody can explain it. And one guy up there said it was proved. Because scientists say it's verifiable fact, when it's not even a complete theory!!
ok but where did the very first traces of matter come from? like the dust particles that made the clouds and eventually elements in your above explanation. did they just make themselves? someone had to create them.
Haha, if there's a post about religion of any sort, you can expect scrantoncity to be there!
Yeah, you can.
i definitely think god created the universe. think of it this way. if you take a billion disassembled watch parts, and put them in a paper bag and shook it up, will a watch come out? No. someone has to MAKE the watch.
Oh religious debates..@632279 (true_romantic): Yupppp there's a giant man out there skipping around and defying the laws of everything who just built everything on a whim..
not a "whim." a plan.
Hahahah I like how THAT'S the thing you try to defend. But no, sorry. I'm not going to try to argue with you because it'll just take up time I could be using to do something else.
i could have argued the other parts too, if you want... but seeing as you seem uninterested...
Yes, I am uninterested.
then don't complain about what i choose to highlight. i could tell you that god is greater than we can imagine and that he lives inside us as well as in heaven, because that's true. but i won't, because you don't care.
I actually didn't complain about what you highlighted, I laughed. Just letting you know.
that's fine.
Delusional Idiot!
I'm sure that's what Jesus wanted everyone to believe.
Both arguments can never really be proven. My point, no one can know what was before, we can all speculate and do all sorts of rock dating and all that. But that doesn't prove or disprove one or the other. Personaly I believe in some sort of higher being, but I dont think that over the entire course of the bible going through time, and peoples hands, it wasn't changed once. I can't believe something came from nothing, and neither, the big bang or the God theory really tell me what was floating around before they decided to finally do something. The thing that annoys me the most about the God of the bible, why create a place to burn for Eternity because I didn't worship you. To me it makes no since that a God that loves everyone would send them to a hell. And with that, if there is a God who has a 'plan' for your life, does that mean that he picks who goes to heavan and who goes to hell? That is the biggest thing that kills me on the God thing. And if the
Big Bang is true, other tha...
He gave us free will to decide whether or not to believe in Him. The ones that go to Hell are Satan's followers. Its not because they don't worship God but because they do worship Satan.
So and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that if I'm not woshiping God I'm automayicly worshiping Satan?
no, I'm sorry I worded that last one wrong. What I was saying is that Heaven is for God's followers and Hell is for those who don't follow God. My main point was that we have free will to choose whether or not we follow God.
Amen.
Actually he died so we could have a personal relationship with God instead of having to go through a priest all the time for atonement. People in the Old Testament were still going to heaven before Jesus was around.
As far as my understanding of the Bible goes, the people who died before Jesus came all went to hell. When Jesus died, he collected the righteous from hell and brought them to heaven, opening the gates of heaven as he did so.
You are deluded. Have you heard of John 3:16? That was a by-product. He died so that we may get to heaven.
Right, so Moses and Elijah and Jacob and all those other righteous dudes who lived before Jesus was born didn't go to heaven? Also the "him" in that verse is God, since Jesus is a part of God.
No, we don't know. They're probably in heaven now, but the Bible isn't clear. But the foundation or Christianity is that Jesus came specifically to forgive our sins. Do not try to change that.
Jesus died so our sins could be forgiven. Your sins need to be forgiven to go to heaven. There were other methods of repenting before Jesus Christ.
Oops I didn't see your last point.
You are so wrong. Nowhere in the Bible does it say God is also Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Nowhere. Because that isn't true.
Holy crap, there is seriously something wrong with you if you're denying the trinity. And clearly you're young and know all the answers so there's no point arguing with you.
I'm not denying the Trinity. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God. They all exist. They're not one being, though.
Show me in the Bible where it says that. THEN you may call me wrong.
Where does it say this? Nowhere? Stop making up stuff, and give me a reference verse.
It is my understanding that Jesus sits at God's shoulder. Tell me how this would he possible.
I'm pretty sure he's wrong.
Until you verify that, you're wrong.
Give me proof that you exist, then. You could be a figment of my imagination. :)
In short, you come in, express your stupidity, defend it with "my teacher says so!", and then bring up a point much debated.
Try reading before you post in order to express as little ignorance as you can.
Listen, the only one that could actually answer the question is John 10:30. I looked it up. That person is taking it out of context. Right before he says that he says "My Father who has given them to me is greater than all"
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." John 1:1
The Word is Jesus. Jesus is not the same as God. He is like God, but not the Creator.
John 3:16 said that God so loved the world that he gave his only forgotten son, and whoever believed in him shall never die, but have eternal life.
*begotten. but the concept is right :)
Forgotten is incorrect. But yeah.
Gave his son, not himself.