It's wrong to force soldiers to coexist in close living quarters, showering, using the restroom, etc, in front of people of the same gender who are openly homosexual. amirite?
No it's not wrong it's very vain to think that all gays are attracted to you just because they're gay that's like thinking every single girl is attracted to you.
Just because they aren't attracted to all people of their gender doesn't mean that gay men aren't still attracted to male genitals, and the same for women. It's basically equivalent to allowing soldiers to shower/use the restroom with people of the opposite sex.
How, exactly, is this any different from a normal bathroom with non-soldiers? Or, perhaps you want to go down the evolutionary ladder a couple years, and have segregation again?
Why NOT let soldiers or anyone else shower/use the restroom with people of the opposite sex? Seriously, it's nothing you haven't seen before, and honestly I'd be more grossed out than turned on by seeing naked guys in the shower. :/
Soldiers are not there to mess around - they are there to fight for our country. They have little time to waste; they'll be in and out of the shower in a couple minutes and they will not put a single thought into your homophobic dick.
This would be a good point if the majority of soldiers said letting openly gay people in the military wouldn't affect them at all or would affect them in a positive way. Other countries let gays in the military with no ill affects, why can't it be the same in America?
Many of the soldiers that said that, said it in 'support of gay rights'. I doubt there are many people who would be completely ok with having to get naked and relieve themselves in front of others that openly admit to being attracted to their genitals.
I don't think all the gay soldiers will be open with their bunk buddies. They're probably only going to let higher ups know just in case they get killed. The whole deal with why DADT was so wrong was because if someone's boyfriend or girlfriend died in action they wouldn't be told like the boyfriend or girlfriend of a straight person would be.
The second part of that seems reasonable to me.
But my point revolves around the indecency of it all. It doesn't really matter whether they are open with their mates or not; by law, they can give out that information and remain in their group, and they can also be there anyway. The knowledge alone is enough to make anyone uncomfortable.
I trust they would have enough respect not to look or talk about their sexually. To me it's a lot like having coed showers in a dorm. Some of the soldiers will have a problem with it, but they'll get over it. They've been serving with gay people who are in the closet for years. It's not like the gay soldiers will decide to always talk about their partner or anything. This is really just to protect the families of gay soldiers.
My statement still stands; it's still inappropriate to allow homosexuals to be in the army, in the same room as people of their gender, with the conditions that soldiers live in.
Well then we shouldnt allow women to be in the army either, because men and woman are attracted to each other, your argument is totally backwards. They are there fighting for freedom, gay or not, and war is war... its not something that is supposed to be comfortable, get over it
Can't homosexuals fight just as well as heterosexuals? They've been in the military for years with no problem. This will just benefit the families of gay soldiers. They'll be able to call their partners and send letters. It's more wrong to make a soldier act like their boyfriend or girlfriend doesn't even exist.
It's not a matter of how well they can fight; it's a matter of whether or not it is appropriate to allow them to coexist with straight soldiers considering the lifestyle they choose to have.
Not everyone believes like you do. You can't push your beliefs on others. No one can know for sure what's right or wrong when it comes to religion anyway.
I don't push my beliefs on others; as I said in my last reply, that is a discussion for another time. It doesn't matter. Whether or not you believe that homosexuality is wrong, I doubt you can honestly say you would be comfortable having to strip in front of someone of the same gender who is homosexual. It's not a matter of religion, that is simply another aspect of my beliefs.
I'd have a problem undressing in front of anyone regardless of their gender or sexuality. That's why I'm not going into the military. When people enlist they should know what they're getting into as far as the living situation goes. Being a soldier is a choice, being gay isn't.
I have to disagree with you there, but my main argument is that people enlist to serve their country and protect their family; yes, they do it regardless of the personal risks, but it doesn't mean they should be subjected to it anyway.
Simply because gay people do not acknowledge it being a choice does not mean that it is not still a choice. My belief is that people can be born with propensities toward homosexuality, but that it is their choice to indulge in that lifestyle.
What do you mean lifestyle? Not all gay people live the same way. Someone can be gay and never have sex with someone of the same gender. It's not about having sex, it's about who you're attracted to. You can't choose who you love.
By lifestyle, I mean choosing to indulge in homosexual feelings and/or behavior. One can choose not to follow that path, if their desire to follow God is greater than their desire to serve their own desires.
I understand why you feel it is wrong, you were raised to believe that. Yes, people choose to have gay sex and be in gay relationships, but they don't choose to have homosexual feelings anymore than you choose to have straight feelings.
Why would you assume that I was "raised to believe that"...? Actually, I've formed most if not all of my opinions on my own, thanks.
As I've said a few times before, I believe that people can choose not to indulge in the homosexual feelings that they have. Regardless, this is not the topic on which I originally posted. Let's avoid red herrings.
You are misinformed because you think there's something wrong with being gay. It's people like that that make gay people seem like second class citizens.
I could just as easily say that it is you that are misinformed, because you believe that there is nothing wrong with being gay. I never said that homosexuals were any less human than any other. I simply believe that homosexuality is wrong, and that there are certain consequences of choosing to indulge that lifestyle, such as not being able to serve in the military, though the law banning that has come to be repealed.
It's unnatural, because homosexuality is not genetic. You are not born with the inability to choose not to be gay.
You should not use your personal belief system to tell me that my faith is wrong. See how easily I can turn that statement around?
And I will be straight up with you and say that you are wrong with your last statement. Saying that homosexuality is wrong because of the standards of the Christian faith is NOT what leads to homosexuals hating themselves. People who call homosexuals derogatory names, who are prejudiced against them and treat them as lesser beings, people who (Christian or not) overall show unkindness toward them because of the lifestyle they live, are the reason that some homosexuals hate themselves. My faith has nothing to do with it.
Your faith turns innocent people into hell bound sinners. That does make some people hate themselves. And just because something isn't "natural" doesn't mean it's wrong. Is it wrong for people to dye their hair? What about watch tv? The computer or phone you're on isn't natural. Is it wrong too?
My faith doesn't turn people into sinners. We are all sinners, regardless of my faith. My faith, however, is meant to be a redeeming aspect to the fact that we are all sinners. My faith is hope, but it also has standards that not everyone agrees with, one of them being that homosexuality is wrong. However, the job of a Christian is not to condemn homosexuals, but to be clear that I don't condone the lifestyle they are living.
I understand that just because something isn't natural doesn't mean it is wrong. It's just another aspect of homosexuality that I felt like mentioning. Homosexuality is wrong because that's not the way God designed our sexual relationships to be.
Don't you think if God didn't want there to be murderers there wouldn't be? Compulsive liars? Kleptomaniacs? People with complete disregard for authority?
God didn't intend for this world to come overridden with sin, but it has because He gave us the free will, the choice, to either follow Him or to follow our humanly desires.
Nothing so personal as sexuality is 'out of our control'. Very little personal things are out of our control. A person with excessive anger that may lead him/her to lash out and physically hurt someone can learn to control his/her anger. People can teach themselves to control certain aspects of themselves in order to do what is right, and not simply what their body desires.
Sexuality is more than what your body desires. It is LOVE for a certain person. Love is something no one can control. Some people ignore it, but it makes them turn into miserable people.
Don't you dare deface and shame the name of Christ and Christianity like that ever again. As Christians it is our job to worship god, and shine our light, so others might see the light of god. It's alright for you to think that homosexuality is wrong, but don't make a statement as to saying ALL Christians believe this or that, because it is wholly untrue. I believe in the acceptance and unconditional love of God that comes to all people who believe in his son, Jesus Christ.
I don't believe in a god that sends innocent people to hell for who they love.
I can show you specific verses in the Bible that state that homosexuality is wrong. I'm not saying that all Christians believe like I do, but a basic principle of Christianity is that the Bible is true, and it speaks truth. If you call yourself a Christian, how can you say that part of the Bible is untrue?
Yes, it IS our job to shine God's light and spread his love. As I've said many times before, I do love homosexuals for the people they are. My closest female friend is a lesbian. This, however, is an intellectual debate. If you can't handle it, don't join in.
If it's natural for a girl to like dick, it's natural for a guy to like dick. But it's considered acceptable for girls because more girls than guys are into it.
Um.. Being a homosexual, as pikabeau said, is not about having sex with the same sex. It's not a lifestyle. It's not a choice. It's just the way they are.
That discomfort comes from ignorance. My friend is bi, and can come up to me saying "I love you!" I don't give a shit. There are more important things then whether or not the person might be attracted to you.
Is it so unflattering? So they think your sexy. Big whup.
To stray back on topic for a bit, no one is being forced to serve in the military unless there's a draft. So if they don't want to serve with gay people they could just not join the military.
Showering in front of other people is awkward, and uncomfortable regardless of sexuality and gender.
And it's not like they're taking hour long showers, anyway...
And I doubt someone's sexual orientation is going to be on your mind when you live with them, and especially once you get to know them, anyway.
This post is idiotic, but after reading the comments not suprising at all.
I didn't NW out of ignorance, btw- I NW'd because you're straight-up fucking wrong, and if the soldiers themselves are saying they don't care why do you? Maybe if you spent less time with your head up everyone's ass whom you think might be doing something that's "wrong" according to YOUR interpretation of YOUR religion(I've read the bible too, and all the examples of verses people say are against homosexuals actually seem to be against adultery and prostitution... and, if you come at it from the "it doesn't make babies" POV, well then don't you ever have straight sex for any other purpose than procreation or you're just as bad), you might have enough going on in your own life to realize all that shit you get your knickers in a twist over doesn't really fucking matter.
Has no one on this website read the report the Pentagon put out?
Like, seriously.
Most service members interviewed either did not care or were for the repeal of DADT.
Plus, if they don't like, they can get out of the military.
No one is forcing them to be there.
I am a Christian, and I do believe homosexuality is wrong. However, everyone has a right to live the way they want. In my opinion, what you do in your life is between you and God, not me, you, all of America, and God. All I can and/or should do is pray for you. With that being said, this post is idiotic. Sure, it is uncomfortable for a straight person to shower front of an openly gay person. In fact, it's uncomfortable to shower in front anybody. However, they are soldiers. If they cannot handle being uncomfortable, they should not be in the armed forces. There is nothing comfortable about war. Okay, these people are fighting a WAR. They are being shot at, blown up, and watching their friends die. The gay person next to them in shower is the least of their worries. Unless homosexuality prevents them from following orders and firing weapons, this change poses no threat to our nation's safety.
Sacred Band of Thebes.
An elite army of gays that combined the strength of a mans body type, with the love and "I'll do anything for them" mind set of a marriage.
You know what?
They beat the fucking Spartans. A polis raised for battle.
I bet they could get over silly little things like who is attracted to what genitalia, and join together to defeat the enemy.
This is the problem with the media.
For example, South Park, imo, is funny as fuck. Mr. Slave is awesome. However, at the same time, it's bended (and not just South Park, but it's an example) society's view of gays, and people know not all of them are like "Mr. Slave", but they have the mindset that 24/7, gays are thinking about scat bestiality foodplay BDSM buttsecks. As if a gay guy will fall in love with any male who talks to him.
Wow this is just sad. It's not like soldiers just wath each other go to the bathroom or change clothes. Like any person, gay or straight, they probably just look away.
What the actual fuck? Are we back in the Middle Ages? I've seen some people on here who have said that it's wrong to make them shower and relieve themselves in front of other members of the same sex who are attracted to their genitals. Seriously? So by your logic, I should feel the need to jump on every man's penis that I see? (I am a girl btw) Also, have you never been swimming? There are people of the same sex showering and walking naked round the changing rooms. Should homosexuals be banned from that? Should you be banned from going to the beach, in case you feel an overwhelming urge to jump on the first half naked body of the opposite sex you see? After all, you shower on the beach. This is just ridiculous. Let people live how they want, unless you're prepared to have the same rights taken away from you as you're trying to get taken from them.
It's not that homosexuals want to be with every person of the same gender that they see. However, homosexuals WOULD be attracted to most people of the same gender that they are allowed to see naked; it's basically the same as letting men shower with women. They don't necessarily want a romantic relationship with every person they see, but seeing them naked is not unlikely to make others uncomfortable if they get sexually aroused.
We are not called to judge, no; but we are called to discern. When the Bible says not to judge, it is speaking of those who scorn without mercy, relating to the verse that says that a man should take the plank out of his own eye before pointing out the speck in his brother's.
As this relates to our discussion, I am called to speak out about what I believe is wrong, situationally of which is homosexuality. I believe it is wrong, and that it goes against God's plan for the lives of each person who engages in that kind of activity. However, I diverge from the persona of a stereotypical evangelical Christian when I say that I am also called to love others, in spite of their sin. And I do; as a person, I do not think badly of any homosexual. What they are doing is wrong, yes, but I love that person all the same. My closest female friend is a lesbian, which is why I chuckle to myself when people on here say that I am a 'gay-hater'.
And being attracted to every person of the same gender is not the issue; every female/male has the same genitals, which homosexuals admit openly to being attracted to.
I know this girl who had a lesbian classmate. Whenever they had gymnastics and had to shower, most of the girls in her class felt really uncomfortable with this.
Yeah, but they're teenagers, and way less mature. You can't really compare a teenage girl to a soldier. They also probably weren't all close friends with her, either, the way soldiers have to bond with each other...if that made sense.
Nah. Your a douche for saying that my friend is morally wrong and other such things. I don't care what your opinion is- don't think so highly of yourself. You are hurtful and insulting to people I care about.
Am I also a douche for saying that murderer is morally wrong? Or a liar? I never said anything about me being higher than anyone else, so don't even try. I'm not aiming to insult homosexuals. In fact, my closest female friend is a lesbian. I love the people, but I believe that sin is wrong.
Who says it is sin? Murder is sin, because the bible very clearly states "Thou shalt not kill" but though I have heard often of a verse that magically says gay people are sinners, I haven't heard it. (I am a confirmed Lutheran)
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
Firstly, do try to be mature. It helps your ethos. Secondly, you asked me which verses stated that homosexuality are wrong, so I gave them to you. Thirdly and lastly, there are some verses in the Bible that you have to read in context, not just whip them out and say they are weird. That particular verse that speaks about removing organs and limbs if they cause you to sin are figurative; in other words, if there is something in your life (druggie friends, partner, addictions, etc) that cause you to sin, get rid of them.
My close-mindedness...? I explained something to you, because you asked me to do so; obviously you either can't handle being told you are wrong or have no back-up plan or realisitc argument behind your accusations.
Try my bestfriend just told me he isn't gay and wants to date me, and I kind of liked him but wasn't ready for that. Now, he's supposedly 'moved on' and I am left hurt. After all this fighting and confusion, I didn't want to argue with the idiot from the internet. I was tired and frustrated and he just made my day so much worse.
Are you in the military?
They have enough balls to go fight so you can believe what you want. I don't care if the sperm those balls produce will never create children, they are Heroes. All of them. There is no reason they (heterosexual soldiers) can't suck up some minor awkwardness for all 5minutes so their comrades can serve with dignity.
If they can't trust them not to 'check them out' then we are all screwed.
Never said it was an excuse. Simply stated what caused such an angry reply. I don't exactly have that filter most people have- the one that let's them think about what they say before they say it. Again- I'm not saying it's an excuse I'm just telling you why. I am who I am- if that makes me a jerk. So be it. I'm not going to change because you think its mean. I give my butally honest opinion of it on how I am feeling now.
On topic for a minute- Religion is separate of government. It doesn't matter what you or I believe. If showering with a guy who might check you out (or a girl.. I'm not positive of your gender) bothers you so much, don't serve. Anyone choosing to serve is well aware of this. If you don't like it- don't serve.
Look, your rudeness didn't upset me. A lot of things generally roll off my back. That may be who you are, but I'll tell you right now that no one engaged in an intelligent debate with you really cares about who you really are on the inside. If you allow yourself to come across as ignorant, rude, and presumptuous, then that is how people will see you and your comments. I can understand a bad day, but I'm not your buddy who is with you 24/7 and knows your moods. This is a debate. Get with it.
Religion has nothing to do with it. Yes, religion is the drive behind my belief that homosexuality is wrong. However, religion was never a part of this post until others brought it up. And I'm aware that the government's decision to repeal 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' has already been set into motion, and there is not much I can do about it. That does not mean I will support it, by any means.
I understand that you believe homosexuality is a sin, and I've been working on accepting people who believe that and not blowing up at them (I AM DOING BETTER :D) I guess I really want a clarification on what exactly you are against? I mean, you aren't atheist and it's highly likely that you don't think they are getting to heaven but are okay with them serving? Is the whole that you might get checked out in the shower? Why not be flattered? They thought you were cute!
BTW- I suck at debates. I always let my emotions rule over me. So in advanced- yeah, I'll swear and be childish. Sorry. shrug
It's not just the uncomfortability of showering together that fuels my point. Homosexuality is a distraction to the purpose of the military, which is to protect and defend our country, and that alone.
This story sums up my main point. It's a personal account of a former military man who had an experience with a homosexual roommate; take a few minutes to read it, and maybe you will understand my point better then. http://www.compleatheretic.com/...s/gayban2.html
It seems that the whole thing could have been made quite simple if he had just asked them to not do anything in front of him/ in his barracks. He never did try to talk to the couple, only lied to them and tried to get them kicked out.
We'll never know what would have happened if he had just said "Look, I saw you. The superior says I can't get you kicked out, but please don't do anything in front of me again."
It seems that lack of communication was at fault- not homosexuality. How is his gay comrade supposed to know that it upsets him- or even that he knows when he never shares?
I think the verbal abuse they subjected him to when he did turn them in is sufficient grounds to say they did not care whether or not their actions made him feel uncomfortable. Of course the homosexuality is at fault there; it should not have been going on in the first place, whether or not people even knew about it. It's called integrity. It was a distraction to the entire purpose of their being there, in the midst of battle, and became a distraction to their roomates as well.
Homosexuality is not the problem! The fact that people were fucking (Not really swearing here- at a loss of how else to describe it) in the room is the problem. I assume women soldiers aren't allowed in mend quarters and vice versa- there just needs to be BOUNDARIES. They don't need a different room- just a rule or two to keep them from exploiting the fact that they do get to share a room with their lovers because they are the same gender. That way if a problem like this occurs again- something can be done about it.
You've just proven my point....
Homosexuality was the root of that problem. Yes, women are not allowed into mens' barracks, and vice versa. However, the military can't just separate homosexuals from their comrades to prevent them from doing inappropriate things as if they are a woman in the mens' barrack, with their lover. Yes, there need to be boundaries, but in a society that is so fixed on not judging and being 'nondiscriminative' against homosexuals, what do you think the chances are of the military creating and/or enforcing such rules?
And as this guy wrote, the nature of men is naturally sexual, and that could be potentially extremely uncomfortable for men of both sexualities, now that all men can openly express their sexuality.
The problem is still not homosexuality. It is the fact that people cannot see that these rules need to be made and enforced.
Really, this makes me think of a class in Middle School. A few intelligent military personnel need to sit down and discuss how they can make the potentially uncomfortable parts of allowing homosexuals to be openly gay, less awkward.
If there was a "You're half right" button I would press it. Yes, It can be awkward, but it doesn't HAVE to be this way. It is possible to find a compromise that allows gay people to be who they are (Whether you believe it was a choice or not) with being overly uncomfortable to his comrades. It's been done in the past- we managed to get the Declaration of Independence good enough for 56 men to essentially sign their lives to it, and then again with the Constitution and everyday since.
I will lose all faith in America if they can't pull together to figure out how to make it work- its positively ridiculous.
Yes, the problem is homosexual inappropriateness. But I agree, there DO need to be rules and restrictions set if homosexuals are going to be allowed into the army.
The problem is sexual inappropriate it. It is homosexual- but that is not WHY it is happening. Just to be clear, you are not trying to say that homosexuals are so "immoral" or something that they did for evil because they are devil-spawn right? With some hardcore Christians you never know. Glad to know we reached ONE agreement!
I am a Christian, but I am also a rational person, not some 'hell and damnation' Puritan.
Yes, the problem is the fact that the men were being sexually inappropriate; however, that situation stemmed from the fact that there were homosexual men (and because they were both men, they were allowed to room in the same barrack) doing inappropriate things with each other.
Then I can agree it is homosexual inappropriateness. I just have a feeling people would misunderstand.
Also- (this just occured to me) don't fault the many, for the mistakes of a few. Not every gay is going to be inappropriate.
That's true. However, faulting many for the mistakes of one is the way the world works. It's better to be safe than sorry. The lives of these soldiers are on the line over there; there should be no more distractions than necessary.
The problem is sexual inappropriate it. It is homosexual- but that is not WHY it is happening. Just to be clear, you are not trying to say that homosexuals are so "immoral" or something that they did for evil because they are devil-spawn right? With some hardcore Christians you never know. Glad to know we reached ONE agreement!
Who says it is sin? Murder is sin, because the bible very clearly states "Thou shalt not kill" but though I have heard often of a verse that magically says gay people are sinners, I haven't heard it. (I am a confirmed Lutheran)
Yes, it would be wrong to force them to do that, which is why people have the option of NOT joining the military. If they're not mature enough to coexist with different kinds of people then they shouldn't even be trusted with firearms.
Tangent aside, God is the ultimate Judge of the human race, which is, in addition to the aforementioned points, the reason behind the verses you mentioned.
I lost my train of thought, but I'm thinking that my main point is that people these days are all about 'not judging', which typically entails the right to live extravagantly and extravagantly sinfully without fear of others questioning their morality or point-blank stating that the lifestyle they are living is wrong. It's a sad state for the world to be in.
No one wants to say, in so many words, that they are trying to be their own god. But the reality is that when you decide that your standards are above God's, that you should be able to live by your own morals and agenda, you are putting yourself in God's position and, in essence, trying to be your own god. I know that many will disagree with such a bold statement as that, but I wasn't put on this earth to conform to the ideas of the general population.
The minute you brought religion into the argument, you lost. The military has people from all different religions, backgrounds, and mindsets. Religion has no business being involved with the armed forces.
My religion is the reason I believe homosexuality is wrong. However, that is not the point I am arguing, pikabeau brought it up, so I simply stated my beliefs.
I'm not judging a homosexual simply because I believe what they are doing is wrong, anymore than I am judging a thief for believing that what they did was wrong.
And I was just thinking about how this relates back to the subject of the post, and then I realized that we are no longer debating homosexuality in the army; we are debating homosexuality as its own topic. Just food for thought.
How do you know what God's plan is? There are far too many people talking about His plan, and they talk about it different ways. What if His plan for some people was for them to be gay? What if He doesn't even exist? To try to be your own god you'd have to believe there was a god out there. People like me don't believe in your God. We believe in a higher, but we don't know what or who it is or what it's plan for us is so we have to set up our own standards because we would have no standards otherwise. I don't really care if we're off topic, I'm never on topic.
This is possibly not at all what you meant, but I think I agree with you. I believe in God, but only with the most basic beliefs.
Who are we to say we know his plans? He said to follow his commandments, so I do, and believe in him. He told me the greatest commandment was to love my neighbors as myself. So I try to. His plan is none of my business I am his servant.
What about them? You can't compare homosexuality to pedophilia. When it comes to any relationship, it's only okay if both parties consent. Can a child legally consent? No! That makes pedophilia wrong. Can my girlfriend consent? Yes. That makes it okay.
Well, if it's not legal they shouldn't do it just to protect the oldest one from getting in trouble. But if you look back at when your bible was written it was sociably acceptable for a 40 year old man and 12 year old girl to get married and have children, so you shouldn't have a problem with it if you base your morals on your religion.
The time in which that was acceptable is found in the Old Testament; society and their customs were much different from what they are now. Many people try to make a stab at the historical aspect of the Bible when they run out of arguments, but the reality is that that was a cultural thing. It was not the way God intended it to be, just as polygamy was not the way God intended marriage to be.
And like I said, the last part of your argument was based on the legality of the whole issue, but you are contradicting yourself. According to your argument, the adult and the minor, if 'in love', should be allowed to be together, because it's 'love'. But now you are saying that they shouldn't do it, therefore they should have less rights to a relationship than a homosexual does.
I'm only saying they shouldn't because the older person can go to jail. If they're willing to take that risk, all power to them. As recently as last century it was acceptable for a young teen to marry a middle aged man. The bible gives no guidelines for dating ages anyway, so you have no idea what god wanted. The bible holds no water in a legitiment argument anyway, since it has no proof to make it a valid source. It can serve as a guide to morals, but common sense teaches morals in a much better, less discriminatory way.
I know what God's plan is, at least to some extent, because I read the Bible, which is God's written word. If it were God's plan for some people to indulge homosexuality, then he wouldn't have contradicted himself by saying that homosexuality is a sin.
When I say that people are trying to be their own god, that specific terminology is not the issue that I am arguing for. Their own ruler, their own king, etc, all work in place of the term 'their own god'.
But God did not write the bible. Man did. Homosexuality wasn't even mentioned in the bible until the 1800s. Before then the verses we know to refer to homosexuals were interpreted to mean male prostitutes. The bible you read has been edited so many times who knows what else could have changed?
How arrogant can you get? You "know" gods plan? Not even Moses and the desciples "knew" gods plan. The bible, as pikabeau said is written by man, and is often an interpretation of Gods words. God can be confusing, are you positive you didn't just misunderstand?
Legality has nothing to do with it. Homosexual men "love" other men. Pedophiles "love" children. Whether or not either of them can consent to the love or reciprocate it is not the issue. The feelings are still there. So, answer how they are different.
And also, in many states, homosexuals cannot marry. Therefore, legality really plays no role here.
They're different because of consent. Homosexuals may not be able to marry, but it's still legal for them to have sex. People can't marry more than one person at a time, but open relationships are still fine as long as both parties are fine with it. Is it legal for a grown man to have sex with a minor?
Legality does not equate with morality. Even then, once the child becomes 18, it doesn't matter if the man/woman is 70, it is legal, but it is still wrong. If your only argument for your belief that pedophilia is different than homosexuality lies in its legality, then you have lost this debate.
It's not just legality. Did you skip the parts where I mentioned consent? A child cannot consent, but my girlfriend can. Consent is not a legal issue, but a moral issue. Nonconsensual sex is called rape. Rape is obviously bad because it hurts people. Does consensual gay sex hurt anyone?
Is the 15 or 16 year old truly in love? Or do they just want to rebel? If it's true love and no one is going to hurt, I have no right to disagree with it. Such an age difference isn't my thing, but as long both parties consent and are happy I can't stop them.
As far as age, it has become generally acceptable what is wrong or right. I do have an idea of what God wanted, because there are guidelines for dating/marriage, such as that bestiality, homosexuality, adultery, etc, are wrong.
Actually, the Bible has never scientifically been proven wrong. Only been challenged.
Of course, society is always going to be appeased by a system of beliefs that allows them to do whatever they want by their own judgement. Society today is all about "not judging" and leaving people be, but the thing is that standards and morals that instruct further into life than some people are comfortable with may cause tension and disagreement, but that doesn't make them wrong. No, not everyone believes in the Bible, but the main reason is because it sets up standards that people don't want to follow because they want to be their own god. They want to do whatever pleases them.
Isn't the Bible also about not judging? "Judge not, lest ye be judged," "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." People judge what is right or wrong by observing how their actions affect others. If it doesn't hurt anyone, no one has the right to object or try to stop them. You have the right to say that is not what you're into, but as far as making a judgement goes, no one has the right to judge as long as no one is physically or emotionally hurt.
No one is trying to be their own God. People just want to be able to set there own standards and have free will.
Shut up for a minute and listen to what she is saying please. You look like a total ass.
Pedophalia- a 15 year old can rarely comprehend love and sex and all of what it entails and its consequences. I am 14, I can tell you this for a fact. I can also tell you I don't know anyone my age that wants to be with a 70 year old man. Laws are made to protect the child from the pedophile, and from there own emotional immaturity. Not to mention- the pedophile is attracted to the child. What happens when they grow up?
No it's not wrong it's very vain to think that all gays are attracted to you just because they're gay that's like thinking every single girl is attracted to you.
Just because they aren't attracted to all people of their gender doesn't mean that gay men aren't still attracted to male genitals, and the same for women. It's basically equivalent to allowing soldiers to shower/use the restroom with people of the opposite sex.
How, exactly, is this any different from a normal bathroom with non-soldiers? Or, perhaps you want to go down the evolutionary ladder a couple years, and have segregation again?
Why NOT let soldiers or anyone else shower/use the restroom with people of the opposite sex? Seriously, it's nothing you haven't seen before, and honestly I'd be more grossed out than turned on by seeing naked guys in the shower. :/
THAT IS EXACtLY WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY!
Soldiers are not there to mess around - they are there to fight for our country. They have little time to waste; they'll be in and out of the shower in a couple minutes and they will not put a single thought into your homophobic dick.
Exactly.
Goddamit if its all about shower then make separate cubicles.
Winner.
The point is they are fighting to save our country, GAY OR STRAIGHT it doesn't matter.
This would be a good point if the majority of soldiers said letting openly gay people in the military wouldn't affect them at all or would affect them in a positive way. Other countries let gays in the military with no ill affects, why can't it be the same in America?
Many of the soldiers that said that, said it in 'support of gay rights'. I doubt there are many people who would be completely ok with having to get naked and relieve themselves in front of others that openly admit to being attracted to their genitals.
I don't think all the gay soldiers will be open with their bunk buddies. They're probably only going to let higher ups know just in case they get killed. The whole deal with why DADT was so wrong was because if someone's boyfriend or girlfriend died in action they wouldn't be told like the boyfriend or girlfriend of a straight person would be.
The second part of that seems reasonable to me.
But my point revolves around the indecency of it all. It doesn't really matter whether they are open with their mates or not; by law, they can give out that information and remain in their group, and they can also be there anyway. The knowledge alone is enough to make anyone uncomfortable.
I trust they would have enough respect not to look or talk about their sexually. To me it's a lot like having coed showers in a dorm. Some of the soldiers will have a problem with it, but they'll get over it. They've been serving with gay people who are in the closet for years. It's not like the gay soldiers will decide to always talk about their partner or anything. This is really just to protect the families of gay soldiers.
My statement still stands; it's still inappropriate to allow homosexuals to be in the army, in the same room as people of their gender, with the conditions that soldiers live in.
Well then we shouldnt allow women to be in the army either, because men and woman are attracted to each other, your argument is totally backwards. They are there fighting for freedom, gay or not, and war is war... its not something that is supposed to be comfortable, get over it
Can't homosexuals fight just as well as heterosexuals? They've been in the military for years with no problem. This will just benefit the families of gay soldiers. They'll be able to call their partners and send letters. It's more wrong to make a soldier act like their boyfriend or girlfriend doesn't even exist.
It's not a matter of how well they can fight; it's a matter of whether or not it is appropriate to allow them to coexist with straight soldiers considering the lifestyle they choose to have.
The thing is it's not a lifestyle choice. You can't choose who you love.
You can, however, choose whether or not to sin. That is a discussion for a different post, though.
Not everyone believes like you do. You can't push your beliefs on others. No one can know for sure what's right or wrong when it comes to religion anyway.
I don't push my beliefs on others; as I said in my last reply, that is a discussion for another time. It doesn't matter. Whether or not you believe that homosexuality is wrong, I doubt you can honestly say you would be comfortable having to strip in front of someone of the same gender who is homosexual. It's not a matter of religion, that is simply another aspect of my beliefs.
I'd have a problem undressing in front of anyone regardless of their gender or sexuality. That's why I'm not going into the military. When people enlist they should know what they're getting into as far as the living situation goes. Being a soldier is a choice, being gay isn't.
I have to disagree with you there, but my main argument is that people enlist to serve their country and protect their family; yes, they do it regardless of the personal risks, but it doesn't mean they should be subjected to it anyway.
You should never disagree with a gay person on whether or not being gay is a choice. Unless you're gay you have no way of knowing.
Simply because gay people do not acknowledge it being a choice does not mean that it is not still a choice. My belief is that people can be born with propensities toward homosexuality, but that it is their choice to indulge in that lifestyle.
What do you mean lifestyle? Not all gay people live the same way. Someone can be gay and never have sex with someone of the same gender. It's not about having sex, it's about who you're attracted to. You can't choose who you love.
By lifestyle, I mean choosing to indulge in homosexual feelings and/or behavior. One can choose not to follow that path, if their desire to follow God is greater than their desire to serve their own desires.
I understand why you feel it is wrong, you were raised to believe that. Yes, people choose to have gay sex and be in gay relationships, but they don't choose to have homosexual feelings anymore than you choose to have straight feelings.
Why would you assume that I was "raised to believe that"...? Actually, I've formed most if not all of my opinions on my own, thanks.
As I've said a few times before, I believe that people can choose not to indulge in the homosexual feelings that they have. Regardless, this is not the topic on which I originally posted. Let's avoid red herrings.
I assume you were raised to believe that because you seem misinformed about being gay.
I am not 'misinformed' simply because my opinion differs from yours.
You are misinformed because you think there's something wrong with being gay. It's people like that that make gay people seem like second class citizens.
I could just as easily say that it is you that are misinformed, because you believe that there is nothing wrong with being gay. I never said that homosexuals were any less human than any other. I simply believe that homosexuality is wrong, and that there are certain consequences of choosing to indulge that lifestyle, such as not being able to serve in the military, though the law banning that has come to be repealed.
I don't think it's wrong to be gay because as far as I can tell it doesn't hurt anyone. Do you think it hurts anyone?
Just because it doesn't hurt anyone doesn't mean it isn't wrong. I could say it hurts God, because it is a sin, but you might not accept that.
If it doesn't hurt anyone, what makes it wrong?
It's unnatural, for one. And my belief in the Bible is a main part of why I believe it is wrong.
Who's to say it's unnatural? You should not use your faith to tell people that they're wrong. That's what leads to gay people hating themselves.
It's unnatural, because homosexuality is not genetic. You are not born with the inability to choose not to be gay.
You should not use your personal belief system to tell me that my faith is wrong. See how easily I can turn that statement around?
And I will be straight up with you and say that you are wrong with your last statement. Saying that homosexuality is wrong because of the standards of the Christian faith is NOT what leads to homosexuals hating themselves. People who call homosexuals derogatory names, who are prejudiced against them and treat them as lesser beings, people who (Christian or not) overall show unkindness toward them because of the lifestyle they live, are the reason that some homosexuals hate themselves. My faith has nothing to do with it.
Your faith turns innocent people into hell bound sinners. That does make some people hate themselves. And just because something isn't "natural" doesn't mean it's wrong. Is it wrong for people to dye their hair? What about watch tv? The computer or phone you're on isn't natural. Is it wrong too?
My faith doesn't turn people into sinners. We are all sinners, regardless of my faith. My faith, however, is meant to be a redeeming aspect to the fact that we are all sinners. My faith is hope, but it also has standards that not everyone agrees with, one of them being that homosexuality is wrong. However, the job of a Christian is not to condemn homosexuals, but to be clear that I don't condone the lifestyle they are living.
I understand that just because something isn't natural doesn't mean it is wrong. It's just another aspect of homosexuality that I felt like mentioning. Homosexuality is wrong because that's not the way God designed our sexual relationships to be.
Don't you think if God didn't want there to be gay people there wouldn't be? I know we have free will, but our sexuality is out of our control.
FUCk YEAH! I love you pikabeau! Finally someone understands!!!
Don't you think if God didn't want there to be murderers there wouldn't be? Compulsive liars? Kleptomaniacs? People with complete disregard for authority?
God didn't intend for this world to come overridden with sin, but it has because He gave us the free will, the choice, to either follow Him or to follow our humanly desires.
Nothing so personal as sexuality is 'out of our control'. Very little personal things are out of our control. A person with excessive anger that may lead him/her to lash out and physically hurt someone can learn to control his/her anger. People can teach themselves to control certain aspects of themselves in order to do what is right, and not simply what their body desires.
Sexuality is more than what your body desires. It is LOVE for a certain person. Love is something no one can control. Some people ignore it, but it makes them turn into miserable people.
Don't you dare deface and shame the name of Christ and Christianity like that ever again. As Christians it is our job to worship god, and shine our light, so others might see the light of god. It's alright for you to think that homosexuality is wrong, but don't make a statement as to saying ALL Christians believe this or that, because it is wholly untrue. I believe in the acceptance and unconditional love of God that comes to all people who believe in his son, Jesus Christ.
I don't believe in a god that sends innocent people to hell for who they love.
I can show you specific verses in the Bible that state that homosexuality is wrong. I'm not saying that all Christians believe like I do, but a basic principle of Christianity is that the Bible is true, and it speaks truth. If you call yourself a Christian, how can you say that part of the Bible is untrue?
Yes, it IS our job to shine God's light and spread his love. As I've said many times before, I do love homosexuals for the people they are. My closest female friend is a lesbian. This, however, is an intellectual debate. If you can't handle it, don't join in.
If it's natural for a girl to like dick, it's natural for a guy to like dick. But it's considered acceptable for girls because more girls than guys are into it.
I believe in the bible and god, and have no problem with homosexuality. It's possible to be accepting and god-fearing at the same time.
Um.. Being a homosexual, as pikabeau said, is not about having sex with the same sex. It's not a lifestyle. It's not a choice. It's just the way they are.
That discomfort comes from ignorance. My friend is bi, and can come up to me saying "I love you!" I don't give a shit. There are more important things then whether or not the person might be attracted to you.
Is it so unflattering? So they think your sexy. Big whup.
To stray back on topic for a bit, no one is being forced to serve in the military unless there's a draft. So if they don't want to serve with gay people they could just not join the military.
Showering in front of other people is awkward, and uncomfortable regardless of sexuality and gender.
And it's not like they're taking hour long showers, anyway...
And I doubt someone's sexual orientation is going to be on your mind when you live with them, and especially once you get to know them, anyway.
How did this not get more votes!!?
This post is idiotic, but after reading the comments not suprising at all.
I didn't NW out of ignorance, btw- I NW'd because you're straight-up fucking wrong, and if the soldiers themselves are saying they don't care why do you? Maybe if you spent less time with your head up everyone's ass whom you think might be doing something that's "wrong" according to YOUR interpretation of YOUR religion(I've read the bible too, and all the examples of verses people say are against homosexuals actually seem to be against adultery and prostitution... and, if you come at it from the "it doesn't make babies" POV, well then don't you ever have straight sex for any other purpose than procreation or you're just as bad), you might have enough going on in your own life to realize all that shit you get your knickers in a twist over doesn't really fucking matter.
Has no one on this website read the report the Pentagon put out?
Like, seriously.
Most service members interviewed either did not care or were for the repeal of DADT.
Plus, if they don't like, they can get out of the military.
No one is forcing them to be there.
I am a Christian, and I do believe homosexuality is wrong. However, everyone has a right to live the way they want. In my opinion, what you do in your life is between you and God, not me, you, all of America, and God. All I can and/or should do is pray for you. With that being said, this post is idiotic. Sure, it is uncomfortable for a straight person to shower front of an openly gay person. In fact, it's uncomfortable to shower in front anybody. However, they are soldiers. If they cannot handle being uncomfortable, they should not be in the armed forces. There is nothing comfortable about war. Okay, these people are fighting a WAR. They are being shot at, blown up, and watching their friends die. The gay person next to them in shower is the least of their worries. Unless homosexuality prevents them from following orders and firing weapons, this change poses no threat to our nation's safety.
Thank you for being rational!
Sacred Band of Thebes.
An elite army of gays that combined the strength of a mans body type, with the love and "I'll do anything for them" mind set of a marriage.
You know what?
They beat the fucking Spartans. A polis raised for battle.
I bet they could get over silly little things like who is attracted to what genitalia, and join together to defeat the enemy.
major shit is going to go down... covers ears and grabs popcorn.
This is the problem with the media.
For example, South Park, imo, is funny as fuck. Mr. Slave is awesome. However, at the same time, it's bended (and not just South Park, but it's an example) society's view of gays, and people know not all of them are like "Mr. Slave", but they have the mindset that 24/7, gays are thinking about scat bestiality foodplay BDSM buttsecks. As if a gay guy will fall in love with any male who talks to him.
Wow this is just sad. It's not like soldiers just wath each other go to the bathroom or change clothes. Like any person, gay or straight, they probably just look away.
What the actual fuck? Are we back in the Middle Ages? I've seen some people on here who have said that it's wrong to make them shower and relieve themselves in front of other members of the same sex who are attracted to their genitals. Seriously? So by your logic, I should feel the need to jump on every man's penis that I see? (I am a girl btw) Also, have you never been swimming? There are people of the same sex showering and walking naked round the changing rooms. Should homosexuals be banned from that? Should you be banned from going to the beach, in case you feel an overwhelming urge to jump on the first half naked body of the opposite sex you see? After all, you shower on the beach. This is just ridiculous. Let people live how they want, unless you're prepared to have the same rights taken away from you as you're trying to get taken from them.
It's not that homosexuals want to be with every person of the same gender that they see. However, homosexuals WOULD be attracted to most people of the same gender that they are allowed to see naked; it's basically the same as letting men shower with women. They don't necessarily want a romantic relationship with every person they see, but seeing them naked is not unlikely to make others uncomfortable if they get sexually aroused.
Right, because in the army, you shouldn't feel uncomfortable at all.
We are not called to judge, no; but we are called to discern. When the Bible says not to judge, it is speaking of those who scorn without mercy, relating to the verse that says that a man should take the plank out of his own eye before pointing out the speck in his brother's.
As this relates to our discussion, I am called to speak out about what I believe is wrong, situationally of which is homosexuality. I believe it is wrong, and that it goes against God's plan for the lives of each person who engages in that kind of activity. However, I diverge from the persona of a stereotypical evangelical Christian when I say that I am also called to love others, in spite of their sin. And I do; as a person, I do not think badly of any homosexual. What they are doing is wrong, yes, but I love that person all the same. My closest female friend is a lesbian, which is why I chuckle to myself when people on here say that I am a 'gay-hater'.
Well, then they can make the gay people look away.
And it's not like they're attracted to every single male/female they see.
Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that.
And being attracted to every person of the same gender is not the issue; every female/male has the same genitals, which homosexuals admit openly to being attracted to.
oh my fuck. no.
I am attracted to penis.
Gilbert Gottfried has a penis.
I AM NOT ATTRACTED TO GILBERT GOTTFRIED'S PENIS!
Quadruple points for arguing with a sense of humor. Dammit! Why are all the good ones gay? :P
I can see how that'd be extremely uncomfortable.
its the the same as making a girl shower naked in front of straight guys. its just uncomfortable
It's not really. In that case it's mostly awkward because they genitals are different, not because you're attracted to them.
no. its cause your attracted to them, not cause theyre different. my dog walks around naked all the time, i dont mind ;)
Are you implying that if you watched someone of the sex, who was straight, showering, it wouldn't be awkward at all?
it's more comfortable for sure.
I disagree. I'd be much more comfortable in front of a lesbian than a man.
just my opinion :)
I know this girl who had a lesbian classmate. Whenever they had gymnastics and had to shower, most of the girls in her class felt really uncomfortable with this.
Yeah, but they're teenagers, and way less mature. You can't really compare a teenage girl to a soldier. They also probably weren't all close friends with her, either, the way soldiers have to bond with each other...if that made sense.
PurpleKneeSocks... You're a legend
PurpleKneeSocks... You're a douche.
I'm a douche because my beliefs differ from yours? That's a mature standpoint you have there.
Nah. Your a douche for saying that my friend is morally wrong and other such things. I don't care what your opinion is- don't think so highly of yourself. You are hurtful and insulting to people I care about.
Am I also a douche for saying that murderer is morally wrong? Or a liar? I never said anything about me being higher than anyone else, so don't even try. I'm not aiming to insult homosexuals. In fact, my closest female friend is a lesbian. I love the people, but I believe that sin is wrong.
Who says it is sin? Murder is sin, because the bible very clearly states "Thou shalt not kill" but though I have heard often of a verse that magically says gay people are sinners, I haven't heard it. (I am a confirmed Lutheran)
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
Oh whoppie- do. According to the bible, your supposed to cut of your arm if it causes you to sin, and etc. Have you listened to those also?
Firstly, do try to be mature. It helps your ethos. Secondly, you asked me which verses stated that homosexuality are wrong, so I gave them to you. Thirdly and lastly, there are some verses in the Bible that you have to read in context, not just whip them out and say they are weird. That particular verse that speaks about removing organs and limbs if they cause you to sin are figurative; in other words, if there is something in your life (druggie friends, partner, addictions, etc) that cause you to sin, get rid of them.
I am done with this conversation. I am sick of your close-mindedness.
My close-mindedness...? I explained something to you, because you asked me to do so; obviously you either can't handle being told you are wrong or have no back-up plan or realisitc argument behind your accusations.
Try my bestfriend just told me he isn't gay and wants to date me, and I kind of liked him but wasn't ready for that. Now, he's supposedly 'moved on' and I am left hurt. After all this fighting and confusion, I didn't want to argue with the idiot from the internet. I was tired and frustrated and he just made my day so much worse.
Are you in the military?
They have enough balls to go fight so you can believe what you want. I don't care if the sperm those balls produce will never create children, they are Heroes. All of them. There is no reason they (heterosexual soldiers) can't suck up some minor awkwardness for all 5minutes so their comrades can serve with dignity.
If they can't trust them not to 'check them out' then we are all screwed.
I'm sorry about your crappy day, but that doesn't give you an excuse to be a jerk on the internet.
Completely not what our conversation was focusing on.
Never said it was an excuse. Simply stated what caused such an angry reply. I don't exactly have that filter most people have- the one that let's them think about what they say before they say it. Again- I'm not saying it's an excuse I'm just telling you why. I am who I am- if that makes me a jerk. So be it. I'm not going to change because you think its mean. I give my butally honest opinion of it on how I am feeling now.
On topic for a minute- Religion is separate of government. It doesn't matter what you or I believe. If showering with a guy who might check you out (or a girl.. I'm not positive of your gender) bothers you so much, don't serve. Anyone choosing to serve is well aware of this. If you don't like it- don't serve.
Look, your rudeness didn't upset me. A lot of things generally roll off my back. That may be who you are, but I'll tell you right now that no one engaged in an intelligent debate with you really cares about who you really are on the inside. If you allow yourself to come across as ignorant, rude, and presumptuous, then that is how people will see you and your comments. I can understand a bad day, but I'm not your buddy who is with you 24/7 and knows your moods. This is a debate. Get with it.
Religion has nothing to do with it. Yes, religion is the drive behind my belief that homosexuality is wrong. However, religion was never a part of this post until others brought it up. And I'm aware that the government's decision to repeal 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' has already been set into motion, and there is not much I can do about it. That does not mean I will support it, by any means.
I understand that you believe homosexuality is a sin, and I've been working on accepting people who believe that and not blowing up at them (I AM DOING BETTER :D) I guess I really want a clarification on what exactly you are against? I mean, you aren't atheist and it's highly likely that you don't think they are getting to heaven but are okay with them serving? Is the whole that you might get checked out in the shower? Why not be flattered? They thought you were cute!
BTW- I suck at debates. I always let my emotions rule over me. So in advanced- yeah, I'll swear and be childish. Sorry. shrug
It's not just the uncomfortability of showering together that fuels my point. Homosexuality is a distraction to the purpose of the military, which is to protect and defend our country, and that alone.
This story sums up my main point. It's a personal account of a former military man who had an experience with a homosexual roommate; take a few minutes to read it, and maybe you will understand my point better then.
http://www.compleatheretic.com/...s/gayban2.html
It seems that the whole thing could have been made quite simple if he had just asked them to not do anything in front of him/ in his barracks. He never did try to talk to the couple, only lied to them and tried to get them kicked out.
We'll never know what would have happened if he had just said "Look, I saw you. The superior says I can't get you kicked out, but please don't do anything in front of me again."
It seems that lack of communication was at fault- not homosexuality. How is his gay comrade supposed to know that it upsets him- or even that he knows when he never shares?
I think the verbal abuse they subjected him to when he did turn them in is sufficient grounds to say they did not care whether or not their actions made him feel uncomfortable. Of course the homosexuality is at fault there; it should not have been going on in the first place, whether or not people even knew about it. It's called integrity. It was a distraction to the entire purpose of their being there, in the midst of battle, and became a distraction to their roomates as well.
Homosexuality is not the problem! The fact that people were fucking (Not really swearing here- at a loss of how else to describe it) in the room is the problem. I assume women soldiers aren't allowed in mend quarters and vice versa- there just needs to be BOUNDARIES. They don't need a different room- just a rule or two to keep them from exploiting the fact that they do get to share a room with their lovers because they are the same gender. That way if a problem like this occurs again- something can be done about it.
You've just proven my point....
Homosexuality was the root of that problem. Yes, women are not allowed into mens' barracks, and vice versa. However, the military can't just separate homosexuals from their comrades to prevent them from doing inappropriate things as if they are a woman in the mens' barrack, with their lover. Yes, there need to be boundaries, but in a society that is so fixed on not judging and being 'nondiscriminative' against homosexuals, what do you think the chances are of the military creating and/or enforcing such rules?
And as this guy wrote, the nature of men is naturally sexual, and that could be potentially extremely uncomfortable for men of both sexualities, now that all men can openly express their sexuality.
The problem is still not homosexuality. It is the fact that people cannot see that these rules need to be made and enforced.
Really, this makes me think of a class in Middle School. A few intelligent military personnel need to sit down and discuss how they can make the potentially uncomfortable parts of allowing homosexuals to be openly gay, less awkward.
If there was a "You're half right" button I would press it. Yes, It can be awkward, but it doesn't HAVE to be this way. It is possible to find a compromise that allows gay people to be who they are (Whether you believe it was a choice or not) with being overly uncomfortable to his comrades. It's been done in the past- we managed to get the Declaration of Independence good enough for 56 men to essentially sign their lives to it, and then again with the Constitution and everyday since.
I will lose all faith in America if they can't pull together to figure out how to make it work- its positively ridiculous.
Yes, the problem is homosexual inappropriateness. But I agree, there DO need to be rules and restrictions set if homosexuals are going to be allowed into the army.
The problem is sexual inappropriate it. It is homosexual- but that is not WHY it is happening. Just to be clear, you are not trying to say that homosexuals are so "immoral" or something that they did for evil because they are devil-spawn right? With some hardcore Christians you never know. Glad to know we reached ONE agreement!
I am a Christian, but I am also a rational person, not some 'hell and damnation' Puritan.
Yes, the problem is the fact that the men were being sexually inappropriate; however, that situation stemmed from the fact that there were homosexual men (and because they were both men, they were allowed to room in the same barrack) doing inappropriate things with each other.
Then I can agree it is homosexual inappropriateness. I just have a feeling people would misunderstand.
Also- (this just occured to me) don't fault the many, for the mistakes of a few. Not every gay is going to be inappropriate.
That's true. However, faulting many for the mistakes of one is the way the world works. It's better to be safe than sorry. The lives of these soldiers are on the line over there; there should be no more distractions than necessary.
All of that is true. I wish it wasn't.
The problem is sexual inappropriate it. It is homosexual- but that is not WHY it is happening. Just to be clear, you are not trying to say that homosexuals are so "immoral" or something that they did for evil because they are devil-spawn right? With some hardcore Christians you never know. Glad to know we reached ONE agreement!
Who says it is sin? Murder is sin, because the bible very clearly states "Thou shalt not kill" but though I have heard often of a verse that magically says gay people are sinners, I haven't heard it. (I am a confirmed Lutheran)
Yes, it would be wrong to force them to do that, which is why people have the option of NOT joining the military. If they're not mature enough to coexist with different kinds of people then they shouldn't even be trusted with firearms.
Tangent aside, God is the ultimate Judge of the human race, which is, in addition to the aforementioned points, the reason behind the verses you mentioned.
I lost my train of thought, but I'm thinking that my main point is that people these days are all about 'not judging', which typically entails the right to live extravagantly and extravagantly sinfully without fear of others questioning their morality or point-blank stating that the lifestyle they are living is wrong. It's a sad state for the world to be in.
No one wants to say, in so many words, that they are trying to be their own god. But the reality is that when you decide that your standards are above God's, that you should be able to live by your own morals and agenda, you are putting yourself in God's position and, in essence, trying to be your own god. I know that many will disagree with such a bold statement as that, but I wasn't put on this earth to conform to the ideas of the general population.
The minute you brought religion into the argument, you lost. The military has people from all different religions, backgrounds, and mindsets. Religion has no business being involved with the armed forces.
My religion is the reason I believe homosexuality is wrong. However, that is not the point I am arguing, pikabeau brought it up, so I simply stated my beliefs.
Christianity also says not to judge others.
I'm not judging a homosexual simply because I believe what they are doing is wrong, anymore than I am judging a thief for believing that what they did was wrong.
Thieves generally hurt other people, homosexuality doesn't.
And I was just thinking about how this relates back to the subject of the post, and then I realized that we are no longer debating homosexuality in the army; we are debating homosexuality as its own topic. Just food for thought.
How do you know what God's plan is? There are far too many people talking about His plan, and they talk about it different ways. What if His plan for some people was for them to be gay? What if He doesn't even exist? To try to be your own god you'd have to believe there was a god out there. People like me don't believe in your God. We believe in a higher, but we don't know what or who it is or what it's plan for us is so we have to set up our own standards because we would have no standards otherwise. I don't really care if we're off topic, I'm never on topic.
This is possibly not at all what you meant, but I think I agree with you. I believe in God, but only with the most basic beliefs.
Who are we to say we know his plans? He said to follow his commandments, so I do, and believe in him. He told me the greatest commandment was to love my neighbors as myself. So I try to. His plan is none of my business I am his servant.
What about when a person believes they "love" a child?
What about them? You can't compare homosexuality to pedophilia. When it comes to any relationship, it's only okay if both parties consent. Can a child legally consent? No! That makes pedophilia wrong. Can my girlfriend consent? Yes. That makes it okay.
What if the child "loves" him/her back and consents morally?
Children don't understand the consequences of sex nor do they understand the emotional implications. They cannot fully consent. Nice try though.
But, it's still not legal for even a 15 or 16 year old to consent, as was your main argument; it's not legal consent.
Well, if it's not legal they shouldn't do it just to protect the oldest one from getting in trouble. But if you look back at when your bible was written it was sociably acceptable for a 40 year old man and 12 year old girl to get married and have children, so you shouldn't have a problem with it if you base your morals on your religion.
The time in which that was acceptable is found in the Old Testament; society and their customs were much different from what they are now. Many people try to make a stab at the historical aspect of the Bible when they run out of arguments, but the reality is that that was a cultural thing. It was not the way God intended it to be, just as polygamy was not the way God intended marriage to be.
And like I said, the last part of your argument was based on the legality of the whole issue, but you are contradicting yourself. According to your argument, the adult and the minor, if 'in love', should be allowed to be together, because it's 'love'. But now you are saying that they shouldn't do it, therefore they should have less rights to a relationship than a homosexual does.
I'm only saying they shouldn't because the older person can go to jail. If they're willing to take that risk, all power to them. As recently as last century it was acceptable for a young teen to marry a middle aged man. The bible gives no guidelines for dating ages anyway, so you have no idea what god wanted. The bible holds no water in a legitiment argument anyway, since it has no proof to make it a valid source. It can serve as a guide to morals, but common sense teaches morals in a much better, less discriminatory way.
I know what God's plan is, at least to some extent, because I read the Bible, which is God's written word. If it were God's plan for some people to indulge homosexuality, then he wouldn't have contradicted himself by saying that homosexuality is a sin.
When I say that people are trying to be their own god, that specific terminology is not the issue that I am arguing for. Their own ruler, their own king, etc, all work in place of the term 'their own god'.
But God did not write the bible. Man did. Homosexuality wasn't even mentioned in the bible until the 1800s. Before then the verses we know to refer to homosexuals were interpreted to mean male prostitutes. The bible you read has been edited so many times who knows what else could have changed?
How arrogant can you get? You "know" gods plan? Not even Moses and the desciples "knew" gods plan. The bible, as pikabeau said is written by man, and is often an interpretation of Gods words. God can be confusing, are you positive you didn't just misunderstand?
I like how people are downvoting this without even considering the logicality of it, simply because they are 'for gay rights'. It's ridiculous.
Do explain.
Legality has nothing to do with it. Homosexual men "love" other men. Pedophiles "love" children. Whether or not either of them can consent to the love or reciprocate it is not the issue. The feelings are still there. So, answer how they are different.
And also, in many states, homosexuals cannot marry. Therefore, legality really plays no role here.
They're different because of consent. Homosexuals may not be able to marry, but it's still legal for them to have sex. People can't marry more than one person at a time, but open relationships are still fine as long as both parties are fine with it. Is it legal for a grown man to have sex with a minor?
So? I "love" someone the opposite gender, and a pedophile supposedly "loves" a child. Does this make my hetero love wrong?
Legality does not equate with morality. Even then, once the child becomes 18, it doesn't matter if the man/woman is 70, it is legal, but it is still wrong. If your only argument for your belief that pedophilia is different than homosexuality lies in its legality, then you have lost this debate.
It's not just legality. Did you skip the parts where I mentioned consent? A child cannot consent, but my girlfriend can. Consent is not a legal issue, but a moral issue. Nonconsensual sex is called rape. Rape is obviously bad because it hurts people. Does consensual gay sex hurt anyone?
An eighteen year old and a seventy year old having sex isn't pedophilia, dude.
A 15 or 16 year old can.
Is the 15 or 16 year old truly in love? Or do they just want to rebel? If it's true love and no one is going to hurt, I have no right to disagree with it. Such an age difference isn't my thing, but as long both parties consent and are happy I can't stop them.
As far as age, it has become generally acceptable what is wrong or right. I do have an idea of what God wanted, because there are guidelines for dating/marriage, such as that bestiality, homosexuality, adultery, etc, are wrong.
Actually, the Bible has never scientifically been proven wrong. Only been challenged.
Of course, society is always going to be appeased by a system of beliefs that allows them to do whatever they want by their own judgement. Society today is all about "not judging" and leaving people be, but the thing is that standards and morals that instruct further into life than some people are comfortable with may cause tension and disagreement, but that doesn't make them wrong. No, not everyone believes in the Bible, but the main reason is because it sets up standards that people don't want to follow because they want to be their own god. They want to do whatever pleases them.
Isn't the Bible also about not judging? "Judge not, lest ye be judged," "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." People judge what is right or wrong by observing how their actions affect others. If it doesn't hurt anyone, no one has the right to object or try to stop them. You have the right to say that is not what you're into, but as far as making a judgement goes, no one has the right to judge as long as no one is physically or emotionally hurt.
No one is trying to be their own God. People just want to be able to set there own standards and have free will.
Shut up for a minute and listen to what she is saying please. You look like a total ass.
Pedophalia- a 15 year old can rarely comprehend love and sex and all of what it entails and its consequences. I am 14, I can tell you this for a fact. I can also tell you I don't know anyone my age that wants to be with a 70 year old man. Laws are made to protect the child from the pedophile, and from there own emotional immaturity. Not to mention- the pedophile is attracted to the child. What happens when they grow up?