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It was indescribably terrible that in America, our ancestors horribly wronged Native Americans, disgusting that they enslaved Africans and now hideous that today we persecute gay people. However, perhaps the most terrifying prospect is that once the gay people finally have equal rights, it won't be too long before we start treating another innocent group inhumanely, amirite?
As some other post says, America will be fucking embarrassed for the way they treat gay people today. Not to mention looked at as complete imbeciles, as well
The United States has never taken homosexuals' territory or had them enslaved. I think it's a real stretch to equate the hardships of homosexuals to past actions against Native Americans and blacks.
I don't think they're being equated so much as being compared. Yes, obviously some injustices are crueler than others, but as a country, are goal should be to abolish all injustice.
Our*
Dammit... I hate when people make mistakes like that.
Natives weren't allowed to marry there own traditional way. And no homosexuals are not enslaved but some people are rallying to remove there rights ( hmmm what does this sound like)
Gay people have the same rights as every single other American. No, they can't marry someone of the same sex, but straight people can't either. That's not "persecution".
And there are no legitimate movements with widespread public support for removing gay people's rights.
So, yeah, Frederick Douglass is rolling over in his grave right now
You can twist words around to make it seem like they have the same rights, sure, but the fact is that straight people have the right to marry the person they are in love with and gay people do not
I'll give you that, but you still can't put it anywhere near the same level as something like slavery.
It's not equally horrible. That doesn't mean it's not horrible.
I thought gay people were always persecuted. well, not always, but definitely since medieval times.
We're persecuting a few different groups right now, actually.
Gays, of course, but also
Immigrants, both legal and illegal
Muslims or anyone of a religion that requires unusual clothing
People who are HIV-positive
*And, to some extent, people with severe food allergies. http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2011...w-from-school/
But, interestingly, we're not persecuting any of them with anything like the violence our ancestors used, which is definitely a step in the right direction. Maybe in another hundred years we'll get it right.
Are you kidding, I HATE having to wash my hands. And having to leave my food, which upon touching another person would kill them, outside?? That's so terrible.
Christians, probably. It's already starting.
the problem with that is that some politicians who are also christians are trying to install christian beliefs in the government. take abortion and gay marriage. gay marriage is not legal everywhere mostly because religious people believe its wrong and ruins the sanctity of marriage. abortion, to a lesser extent, but still some are so against it and want it gone because of religious beliefs. in a way, the minority (again MINORITY. and slim minority at that.) of christians are persecuting others who are against them.
i am in no way against christians, i am against the radical ones who think gay marriage and abortion are abominations.
You fail to see either the majority of Christians or the true Christians. Many claim to be religious without any clue of what that religion actually is. Others add on or subtract from a religion to make it better for themselves. Any real Christian will neither agree with gays or abortion nor discriminate against those who wish for it.
Well, you CAN be a christian and be for those things (not sure how that's possible for abortion..), but then you'd be guilty of cherry picking from the bible, so.. :/
Most Christians already do cherry-pick from the bible. There are so many rules (that are all deemed equal in God's eyes) that no one really follows them all. No one stones adulterers, no one stays away from clothes of mixed threads, etc. (And btw, The Year of Living Biblically is a great book that discusses this point quite a bit.)
I am fucking tired of writing out this point over and over, so I'll copy it from Boulder.
(and don't give me that Old Testament law crap. Jesus said that we do not have to follow all of the sacrifices etc. of the Old Testament, but is also against homosexuality in the New Testament)
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)
Copied and pasted exactly from the King James Bible (an online version, since my parents at this house don't have one.)
He meant earthly law, mostly. A lot of Jews thought he came to rule on Earth, but this is one place where he rids them of that misconception.
In the Old Testament, people had to follow all of those laws and do those sacrifices because there was nothing to cleanse their sins. Suddenly, Jesus comes along and dies for us all, a metaphorical cleansing. That's why we don't have to follow Old Testament law- It was meant to keep us good in God's eyes until Jesus came along.
It's actually easily possible. The Vatican teaches that when your consience conflicts with the teachings of the church, you should go with your consience. That's how I am able to love God, be a devout Catholic and support gay marriage.
because the Vatican, a group of humans, can tell you if you cannot obey God.
cherry picking?
Religion,Abortion,Gay marriage, AND Politics?
cannot compute...
if you are a christian, you dont believe in abortion or gay marriage. period. it goes against the bible. Its not radical. Radical, would be to kill or harm the people who do. Also, gays arent dying for their sexuallity. yes they are being discriminated against, but not persecuted.
It depends on your idea of a "Christian."
Christian - A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
I have been baptized, made my confirmation, and I believe in Jesus and his teachings. Yet I still support gay rights and am pro-choice. I still consider myself to be a Christian.
Christian- A person who believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings.Baptism is only a physical representation of the gift God has given us. It does not define a Christian.
"I believe in... his teachings." If you are confirmed, surely you know that
1.) God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one being. By believing in Jesus' teachings, you believe and follow the Bible as a whole.
2.) The Bible was written by God; perhaps indirectly, but it contains all he wants in it and nothing he doesn't.
3.) The Bible is against homosexuality (and don't give me that Old Testament law crap. Jesus said that we do not have to follow all of the sacrifices etc. of the Old Testament, but is also against homosexuality in the New Testament) and abortion.
Sorry for the block text, for some reason it isn't letting me separate bits of information.
First of all, the definition I gave was not my definition; I found it online. I am not saying that Baptism is the be-all-end-all for Christians, I was simply saying that according to that definition, I fulfilled one part of being a Christian, as I was Baptized.
I wasn't going to give you any "Old Testament law crap." God may have indirectly created the Bible, but it WAS written by man. It could have been changed over time to include some things and not others. That being said, however, I don't disagree with the fact that the Bible is against homosexuality. I disagree with someone who says that if you don't follow the Bible WORD FOR WORD, then you are not a true Christian. Everyone has a different interpretation. Just because you see that the Bible says "no abortion," that doesn't mean everyone else thinks the same thing.
Your argument becomes invalid with "I found it online."
But I'm sure you have a better source for your "definition."
No, but that in no way implies that the internet is a good source.
Whether or not the internet is a reliable source is not the point. You told me that people who support gay rights aren't true Christians, according to the definition of a Christian. Where is YOUR definition coming from?
1.) Your first point is true, but irrelevant.
2.) God did not write the bible. The bible says the earth, the stars and humans were created within 6 days. There is evidence that proves that false. God cannot lie, nor can he forget or be wrong; therefore he could not have said that, or created false evidence.
3.) The main idea of Christianity is love. Jesus loved EVERYBODY. Period. I'm fairly sure that homosexuality can actually be found in your DNA, that it cannot be controlled, it is not a choice. If it is not a choice, it is not a sin (unless Jesus actually SAID he was against homosexuality; I didn't read the bible). As for abortions, they're pretty much hated by most Christians, but I'm undecided.
1.) Not irrelevant; he follows Jesus' teachings and therefore God's teachings i.e. the Bible.
2.)I'd like to see solid evidence without one "theory" in it about even HOW the Earth was created.
3.) Who said discriminate against homosexuals? I have a close relative who is homosexual and have I hated her for it? Not really, no, and the same should be true for everyone.
you dont think there are gays being persecuted? well you need to get out in the world more.
thats exactly what i mean by radical, when they put others down because their opinions are different. not killing, but oppression.
No, Christians dont really get discriminated against and they are a majority. I think it would be atheists next. There are actual statistics that show that they are the least trusted minority group in the U.S
As a Christian I would say most Christians are discriminated against because we are aligned with the radical Christians who dominate the public eye. Although I doubt Christians would be persecuted, they are commonly discriminated against. And being a majority doesn't mean anything, slaves outnumbered whites in many Southern states but there is no denying that slaves were dsicriminated against.
I seriously never heard of a true Christian discrimination case. Yes, there are incidents with Christians being left out, etc, but I never heard a true discrimination case. As for atheists, in some state constitutions you must believe in a higher power in order to run for public office. Luckly that law is unenforceable. In child custody cases, atheists are less likely to gain custody of their child if their atheist. There was once an atheist girl who got kicked off her PUBLIC school's basketball team for not reciting the lords prayer. Christians make up about 75 percent of the u.s population, so they are a large majority. Yes, some may face discrimination, but that is very rare. Also remember every religion has it's stereotypes, Christians aren't the only ones with bad stereotypes.
Many people have commented that gays aren't being systematically tortured, but society isn't too nice to them. It isn't unheard of for a family to disown a fellow family member because he/she is gay.
It's pretty comical that you're comparing the persecution of gay people to massacring Native Americans or slavery. If we could put things in context, that'd be great.
I think you're missing the point of the post. He isn't comparing the three necessarily, he's just pointing out the fact that there was some fucked up treatment of certain groups of people in our history, as well as today. Gay people don't have to be enslaved or have their land taken in order for people to realize the way they are treated is wrong.
Oh no, I completely see the point of the point. But he is comparing them, intentionally or not, to slaves and Indians, which is pretty comical.
I disagree. You honestly don't think there are gay people who are killed for being gay? Not only in America, all over the world? I don't get people with your rationale. Does it have to be on a scale as massive as slavery and the Native Americans to warrant the same importance?
Except you can't extrapolate the argument throughout the world because this post is specific to the United States
Lol okay, well forget that half of a sentence then. The rest makes sense. :D
Well okay. In regards to the other stuff. Yes, there are people killed for being gay, but I wouldn't say it's widespread. And I would say how widespread something is, is connected to its importance. In an ideal society, that wouldn't be the case, but we can only spend so much time and money on certain issues and right now, I would say gay rights deserve that time and money. If all three of these issues went on in the same time period, however, wouldn't you agree we should focus on Indian rights and ending slavery first?
Hmm. No. Don't get me wrong, that stuff truly makes me sick. Physically sick. And honestly I understand why you're saying that. But the thing is, if all three happened in the same time period I would think we could just focus our time on eliminating all discrimination as a whole. That way no one group is left out, you? Yes, I do realize that is unrealistic as all fuck, but for some reason I just can't insinuate that gays aren't as important. I'm not trying to change your mind or anything, I'm just trying to explain my reasoning. Hope I got it across?
Yeah, I get what you're trying to say. By no means am I trying to belittle gays by saying their fight can't compare to slaves' or Indians'. Really, this discussion has no point because we can both agree that gay discrimination is completely wrong and disgusting and they should have full rights.
Agreed. Either way, thanks for being civil. :)
You don't pay attention too well, do you? I'm not comparing them, they just happen to be within the history of persecution in this country. It's not really my fault that two aren't on the same scale as the third. The only reason it isn't more along the lines of the other two is that most people wouldn't allow it to go as far as it did during slavery or even the days where open racism was the norm in large parts of the country. I'm not saying, "Hurrrrr ghey ppl get it bad az da indeeuns duuuurp" but it's just the fact that our culture singles them out and treats them unequally.
Hatred of gays is in no way a new thing in this country.
But on to my main point, I have a more optimistic view. I think that as time goes on, the list of people we discriminate against gets shorter as we become more enlightened.
In the words of MLK, "the arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice."
Well, it is sort of improving: Blacks weren't treated quite as badly as Native Americans (that's somewhat debatable), and gays are nowhere near as bad. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but we're definitely becoming less discriminative over time.
Also, I think blacks were being enslaved before white people came to the americas, and people have hated gays for centuries, like you said. So we're not shifting our hatred between minorities, we're just ceasing to hate one group so the hatred toward the next group becomes more noticeable.
This is what I am always thinking, they deny rights for no reason, and the people against it today are the same as people from back before our times, it is just sick
It's already happening to Muslims, but it's worse in Europe.
I think people are missing the big picture and how Christians are being persecuted. How many people on here have generalized the fact that all Christians hate gays? I have a friend whose one of the most religious people I know who has a shirt that says "God loves gays too." Being need to stop judging Christians. I'm sicking of people relating Christianity with hate when that's not what it is about at all.
THANK YOU. People who discriminate are not following the idea of love and respect that is the centre of Christianity. Don't hate religions because of the people who don't follow said religions.
Honestly though, I felt guilty about confronting the persecution because we as christians are told we will be persecuted. I think people need to grow up and realize that everyone is a screwed up human being and we're always going to treat other people poorly.
Yeah, America is tottaly the only country with this problem. In their less than 300 years of a country, they tottaly have the worst list out of every single other country. Yeah. No. Why does this say America? How about "the world".
No, not start persecuting. We will start realizing that what we are doing is wrong when those people stand up for themselves.
Hipsters are next.
Wow, I'm shocked that you grouped what's happening to gay people in with the terrors of what happened to Native Americans (which were a lot worse from the Europeans than those living in the Americas), and the terrors of what happened to African Americans (also a lot worse from the Europeans than those living the Americas).
In comparison, gays have got it good.
This point has been brought up and answered. I'm not saying they're on the same level, they're just in the history of persecution of the same country. However, if you'd like to bring about a contrived argument, I suggest you look elsewhere, because you won't get it from me.
Um, pretty sure gays aren't being enslaved or persecuted.
"persecuted" ?!
are you blind and deaf
I'm guessing it will be white people next. Just guessing, though.
tuwlol
Perhaps the unborn?
Perhaps pregnant women?
Too long,didn't read.
You're an idiot, working at McDonald's.
I'm actually an unemployed idiot.