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If God already has a "Plan", then what's the point of praying for something to happen, amirite?

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Whatever you do, its according tp plan. So if you pray 3 times a day...thats in the plans too.

@Chewbanshee Whatever you do, its according tp plan. So if you pray 3 times a day...thats in the plans too.

If everything we do is according to God's plan, then when someone sins, they are simply carrying out God's plans, amirite? How can God then punish the sinner for doing what He planned for them to do?

@DanielJames If everything we do is according to God's plan, then when someone sins, they are simply carrying out God's plans...

God has nothing to do with sin. NOTHING. Its not God putting sin in front of us, its Satan presenting us with an opportunity to sin.

@danieljc2008 God has nothing to do with sin. NOTHING. Its not God putting sin in front of us, its Satan presenting us with an...

God has everything to do with sin. He created sin by making His Law and he created the temptation to sin by creating Lucifer.

@WideAwake He didnt know lucifer would rebel.

Then He's not all-knowing. And if He's not all-knowing, then He's not all-powerful. And if He's not all-powerful, then he's not God.

@DanielJames Then He's not all-knowing. And if He's not all-knowing, then He's not all-powerful. And if He's not all-powerful...

I don't know. I think he is all knowing of us but not of powerful beings such as lucifer.

@DanielJames God has everything to do with sin. He created sin by making His Law and he created the temptation to sin by...

God did not create sin. He gave us the commandments because Satan brought sin into the world. We pray to should our thankfulness towards God to show our greatfulness, thankfulness, and show that we trust him with our lives and troubles.

Anonymous -1Reply
@DanielJames If everything we do is according to God's plan, then when someone sins, they are simply carrying out God's plans...

God gave us free will. He knows what we will do in the future, but we still have to make choices, such as when Jesus told peter he would deny him 3 times, Peter didnt believe it, but still ended up doing it, Jesus couldn't stop him because Peter had free will. As for sin, according to 1 Corinthians 10:13, "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so you can stand up under it."

It depends on how you balance the ideas of the "plan" and destiny with free will, really.

I typed out a really long answer to this but then deleted it all because I feel like it was the type of thing that only makes sense in my head and completely goes to shit when I try to explain it.

Anonymous +3Reply

I guess we're trying to convince God to modify his plans for us.

Part of what makes God who He is, is the fact that we can't fully understand his magnitude on earth. You have to believe what HE says, that he is Good, that He is in control of all things, AND that he never causes someone to sin. You cannot understand the depth of God using the logic of man.

God's plan isn't like a set step-by-step plan.

he uses our prayers to fulfill his plan

God doesn't exist. Neither does his plan. Now go out and live life, do whatever makes you happy.

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are -11Reply
@StickCaveman What if believing in God makes some people happy?

If that's the case, go for it. I believe I'm one of the greatest speakers in my city. It's probably not true, but it sure makes me feel better.

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +2Reply
@DandyLion I'm going to church next Sunday, you wanna come?

I was actually at a church this weekend to listen to a good friend of mine give his first sermon. If I knew you well, I would :)

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are -1Reply
@danieljc2008 How do you explain the universe coming about?

We have the big bang theory. If you ask, "How did that occur?" or "What happened before that?", I'll have to say, "We don't know, but we'll do our best to figure it out and check our theory with evidence. Give us some time, we want to be as accurate as possible".

How did God come into existence?

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +7Reply
@LamWin We have the big bang theory. If you ask, "How did that occur?" or "What happened before that?", I'll have to say...

He always existed. The same theory-shattering power hat he used to make everything is the same power that explains his eternal existence. What does the big bang theory state?

@danieljc2008 He always existed. The same theory-shattering power hat he used to make everything is the same power that explains...

Big bang = The universe was once a infinitesimally small and dense point that eventually expanded into the vast state it is now due to some unknown event. A phenomenon known as cosmic microwave background radiation strongly supports this theory.

You're saying the power God has to create/do anything is responsible for his existence. Where did that power come from?

Also, I find it interesting you posit that God has always existed. Why can't the universe always have existed instead? We have very obvious proof that the universe exists. We don't have obvious proof or evidence of God's existence. It'd be more logical to assume the universe has always existed, does it not?

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +3Reply
@LamWin Big bang = The universe was once a infinitesimally small and dense point that eventually expanded into the vast...

The universe can't always have existed because we know it had a beginning with the big bang.

@WideAwake The universe can't always have existed because we know it had a beginning with the big bang.

I agree.

Someone said God has always existed. I was just pointing out that, assuming things can "always exists", it would be more plausible that the universe always existed than God always being here since we can at least observe and prove the existence of the universe without a doubt.

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +7Reply
@LamWin I agree. Someone said God has always existed. I was just pointing out that, assuming things can "always...

The way I understand it is like if you play the sims games on the computer you know that time moves faster in the game than in real life so imagine that time didn't move at all in real in real life and you are basically god in the sims games. That's just how I understand it though

@WideAwake The universe can't always have existed because we know it had a beginning with the big bang.

The universe may have not always existed, but God always did. He may have used the big bang to create the earth when He Decided.

@LamWin Big bang = The universe was once a infinitesimally small and dense point that eventually expanded into the vast...

So what you're saying that this, center, or origin, has always existed? And that it spontaneously acted? And that it was powerful enough to put the whole universe together as what we see today?

@danieljc2008 So what you're saying that this, center, or origin, has always existed? And that it spontaneously acted? And that...

I don't know if it was always there. I don't know what caused it to expand. But that's the fun of science; figuring this shit out. But I can tell you, yes, it was obvious powerful enough to result in the present state of the universe. The proof is your existence, lol.

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +4Reply
@danieljc2008 And the proof of God is YOUR existence, amongst many other things, good sir. :)

That doesn't prove that a god exists at all. Just because we don't know how everything got here doesn't automatically mean some god did it. It is impossible to prove gods existence.

Anonymous +4Reply
@That doesn't prove that a god exists at all. Just because we don't know how everything got here doesn't...

I know how everything got here. Plus, it takes more faith to believe in the big bang or evolution or whatever than it does to believe in God. Just because we can't prove God exists using science, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

@danieljc2008 I know how everything got here. Plus, it takes more faith to believe in the big bang or evolution or whatever than...

Did you seriously just say that it takes more faith to believe in the big bang and evolution than it does to believe in god? The big bang and evolution actually have scientific evidence to back it up. Parts of evolution have been proven true and is an undeniable fact such as micro evolution. on the other hand, god has no evidence to back him up. There are no hard core facts and evidence to back it up. It takes faith to believe in god, not science. True, just because we can't prove god with science doesn't mean he does not exist, but it doesn't prove his existence either. There's no way to prove or disprove his existence, just like how it's impossible to prove or disprove that fairies ever existed.

Anonymous +2Reply
@danieljc2008 I know how everything got here. Plus, it takes more faith to believe in the big bang or evolution or whatever than...

I honestly do not see how it takes more faith to believe in something with evidence as opposed to something you just "have to believe" in.

@danieljc2008 He always existed. The same theory-shattering power hat he used to make everything is the same power that explains...

If it's so easy to believe God has always existed, why is it so far-fetched to believe the universe has always been? Not every atheist believes in the big bang; our lives and even planet have a beginning and an end, so naturally we selfishly assume this holds true for everything. All elements on earth are recycled, so is it so hard to believe everything in the universe is recycled? Food for thought

@LamWin We have the big bang theory. If you ask, "How did that occur?" or "What happened before that?", I'll have to say...

The idea is that God exists outside of time, He never changes. That He created time so that we could observe the passing of events. We change. We are mortal. Time doesn't really mean anything, or exist beyond what value or existence we give it.

I always looked at it this way: do I think that a bunch of matter and energy had no creation and was always somehow in existence, or do I believe that an all-powerful, omnipotent being created everything? Do I believe that God has been in existence forever, or some powerless matter and energy?

Physics say that mass and energy are neither created nor destroyed, they are only converted between each other. So then how did that mass and energy get there? That was always just there? So inanimate matter and energy doesn't need a beginning, but a God does? Okay.

@DictatorCourtney The idea is that God exists outside of time, He never changes. That He created time so that we could observe the...

"The idea is that God exists outside of time, He never changes."

Remember, just because you can rearrange words to make a sentence doesn't mean the sentence will make sense. Can you tell me what it means to be "outside of time"? And God must change. Any action of his, including creation, is a change in the state of things, which is what time, scientifically, is. If that is the case, he must be subject to the laws of cause and effect.

"Physics say that mass and energy are neither created nor destroyed"

Little known, but very interesting fact: Matter/energy is actually formed out of, literally, nothing. It's in very small increments in a given space, and it's almost always destroyed almost immediately upon creation. But I digress. Whether or not you believe things need a beginning is up to you. But you can't say "this thing must have a beginning, but this thing doesn't."

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +4Reply
@LamWin "The idea is that God exists outside of time, He never changes." Remember, just because you can rearrange words to...

Time does not influence Him because he doesn't change. He is perfect, therefore he doesn't need to change.

You're totally back tracking.
"How did God come into existence?" As if He needs to have a beginning, but the you say, "But you can't say 'this thing must have a beginning, but this thing doesn't.'" That's exactly what you were saying. That the big bang must have had a beginning that science is not yet aware of, which is why that automatically makes sense to you, but then you say if God doesn't have a beginning, He can't exist. What you say seems very contradictory to me. Believing in a God, is more logical to me. Not believing in a God, is more logical to you. They both have good reasoning. I believe in God because I think it's more plausible that a God-like being doesn't need a creation, than an inanimate object doesn't need a beginning.

Where do you get that matter can come from nothing? Sources please. If matter can come from nothing, why can't God? Why does one need to have a beginning to be plausible, but not the other?

@DictatorCourtney Time does not influence Him because he doesn't change. He is perfect, therefore he doesn't need to change. You're...

"Time does not influence Him because he doesn't change. He is perfect, therefore he doesn't need to change."

Change isn't like changing your personality or whatever. Simply moving your arm or having your heart beat is a change. Creating the universe is an act and there is a change. A will and power to create (cause) results in a universe (effect). God is subject to the laws of cause and effect, which is time.

I believe everything has a beginning. I don't know where you got the idea that I didn't. The universe, according to the big bang theory, had a beginning, around 13.7 billion years ago. That much we're sure of. What we don't know is what happened beforehand.

Source (if you want something better than wikipedia, let me know):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_foam

"At such small scales of time and space the uncertainty principle allows particles and energy to briefly come into existence, and then annihilate, without violating conservation laws."

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +4Reply
@LamWin "Time does not influence Him because he doesn't change. He is perfect, therefore he doesn't need to...

God isn't actually subject to anything if He created it. If He created the laws. If God created everything, He is the cause, and we are the effect. If God created time, He could have existed before time. Time is just something inside our heads. It's not real. It's abstract, it can't be proven.

I found something about that too. The particles borrow energy from other things; the "nothing" isn't really nothing as we know it to be.

If something happened before the big bang, that's not the beginning.

"Why can't the universe always have existed instead?"

And even if small particles, that extinguish almost immediately came from nothing, why can't God? And why couldn't He have always been around?

I'm just saying, both positions are plausible. Science says to me that there is a God, and science says to you that there isn't. We wont know until we die, and if you're right, it wont matter anyway. Both sides are plausible. Science can't prove everything because we don't even have all the questions. Our perceptions also change how we view evidence.

@DictatorCourtney God isn't actually subject to anything if He created it. If He created the laws. If God created everything, He is...

"God isn't actually subject to anything if He created it. If He created the laws."

Are we not subject to the laws we create?

"If God created time, He could have existed before time."

Time is change and change is not abstract. It can be measured. The act of creation is a change in the state of things. Time is therefore a prerequisite for creation. God can't do anything before time as time must pre-date God's actions. God must have a beginning. Time began when something changed. If you're religious, time begins when God came into existence. Before the big bang, there was no change in the state of things, as far as we know. Time begins with the big bang for us science-y folk.

"And even if small particles, that extinguish almost immediately came from nothing, why can't God? And why couldn't He have always been around?"

Did God immediately get annihilated after coming into existence? If so, is there no longer a God? If not, your argument is invalid.

"I'm just saying, both positions are plausible."

We have huge support for the big bang theory (Cosmic microwave background radiation, an expanding universe, etc.). Where is the evidence for God?

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +1Reply
@LamWin "God isn't actually subject to anything if He created it. If He created the laws." Are we not subject to the laws...

To clarify what I said earlier regarding God and time, God doesn't actually create time. Time springs into existence with God. The existence of time then allows God to work his magic.

In conclusion, God is well within the confines of time. That's the main point of all that text up there.

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +3Reply
@LamWin "God isn't actually subject to anything if He created it. If He created the laws." Are we not subject to the laws...

The evidence to me is that there are scientific laws. And if those particles are immediately extinguished, what does that matter? How can it sustain a mass? It borrows energy from the net energy of the universe, and when the energy is drawn back, it goes back to just energy. It's not coming from nothing. And no. Lawmakers are sometimes not subject to the laws they create. If God created to laws for man, he could have made it so they don't pertain to Him, if He created the laws subsequently. You are saying two different, contradictory things, to whatever I say. You are also looking at God as though He is a human, not a God. Time is abstract and not real. Any measure is relative. Measure only means the value we give it. You're just bending things to what you want to believe and disprove me. When I say why does God have to have a beginning, you say because the big bang did, and then you later say that it could have been in existence for forever, and when I ask how could it, you say that it can come from nothing. You can't disprove His existence. You can't prove it either. If something cam before the big bang, the big bang isn't the beginning.

@DictatorCourtney The evidence to me is that there are scientific laws. And if those particles are immediately extinguished, what...

"The evidence to me is that there are scientific laws. And if those particles are immediately extinguished, what does that matter? How can it sustain a mass? "
--I never said they sustain a mass. I just added that fact in there as a fun fact. I didn't elaborate on what it does. It certainly isn't responsible for the universe, if that's what you thought I said.

"Lawmakers are sometimes not subject to the laws they create."
--They're supposed to be.

"If God created to laws for man, he could have made it so they don't pertain to Him, if He created the laws subsequently...You are also looking at God as though He is a human, not a God."
--As do you. As does everybody. It's the only rational way to look at Him. God "wrote" the Bible? Human thing. God speaks to people? Humans do to. God creates things? So do humans.

"When I say why does God have to have a beginning, you say because the big bang did"
--No, I say because everything must have a beginning.

"Time is abstract and not real"
--Time, scientifically speaking, is any change. Change is not abstract. Explain to me why you think otherwise.

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +3Reply
@LamWin "The evidence to me is that there are scientific laws. And if those particles are immediately extinguished, what...

"and then you later say that it could have been in existence for forever, and when I ask how could it, you say that it can come from nothing."
--No, I don't believe it could've been in existence forever. If you're referring to this: http://amirite.net/633100/1448354 , refer to this: http://amirite.net/633100/1448449 and the post above it. I never said a universe could come from nothing. Quote me if I'm wrong.

"You can't disprove His existence. You can't prove it either."
--In science, there is little we can actually "prove". Even our theory of gravity, General Relativity, is not proven. Most things we just find an assload of evidence for and call it good. We have plenty of evidence for the Big Bang. Where is the evidence for God?

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +3Reply
@LamWin We have the big bang theory. If you ask, "How did that occur?" or "What happened before that?", I'll have to say...

Honestly, God does not state in the bible how he came to be, it just says he always existed. We do not know how he always could of been there, but we believe by faith that he was just there.

Anonymous 0Reply
@LamWin We have the big bang theory. If you ask, "How did that occur?" or "What happened before that?", I'll have to say...

Will you? Don't answer it: the answer is no. It is, literally, impossible. Our universe branched off of another universe? Okay, but where did that universe come from? Another universe? Okay, but where did that universe come from? It has to start somewhere, and universes don't just pop into existence, so it can't start. Therefore, I must conclude that the universe doesn't exist. The existence of a universe, or any other form of reality, is fundamentally impossible.

@Thantophobia Will you? Don't answer it: the answer is no. It is, literally, impossible. Our universe branched off of another...

The answer is "I don't know, but we'll see." And I've never heard of our universe being a branch of some other universe.

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are +2Reply
@LamWin The answer is "I don't know, but we'll see." And I've never heard of our universe being a branch of some other...

It's the multiverse theory. You've never heard of that? It's pretty widespread. And "I don't know, but we'll see" doesn't work here. That's the entire point. We won't see; if we keep going a step backward, there's always more to wonder about.

@Thantophobia It's the multiverse theory. You've never heard of that? It's pretty widespread. And "I don't know, but we'll...

I've heard of that. It's not universes branching off of other ones though. And we're not going a step backwards. Everyday is a step forward assuming we don't hit another Dark Age.

LamWins avatar LamWin Yeah You Are -2Reply
@LamWin I've heard of that. It's not universes branching off of other ones though. And we're not going a step backwards...

It's just a figure of speech. Of course it's not a step backwards in scientific progress, it's a step backwards on which universe existed first.

@LamWin God doesn't exist. Neither does his plan. Now go out and live life, do whatever makes you happy.

Did you know that the sun is smaller than the Earth? Of course it is. It's inside the Earth, after all.

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