Agreed. It should've been something like 'In God we Believe' and 'Worship God', amirite?
They're just fucking words.
This is not life or death.
Just because they're there doesn't mean you have to believe them or pay attention to them.
It goes against separation of church and state, though. Also it's not fair for people who don't believe in god. A national pledge should include everyone, and the best way to do that would be by having no references to god or religion.
I don't believe in god, and I just say it.
Just because I say some words doesn't mean I believe or don't believe anything.
If someone who doesn't believe in god is offended by it, then just...wow. Do they start screaming when they drive by a church? It's really not all that important.
The scenario: "HOLY FUCKIN' COW, A CHURCH! I CAN'T BELIEVE I HAVE TO LOOK AT IT FOR TWO SECONDS OF MY DAY. DAMN CHRISTIANS ALWAYS TRY TO CONVERT ME"
It doesn't say the Christian God. It just says God. I don't understand how you interpret that as it strengthens the idea the US is a Christian nation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Allah and God the same being?
True and I suppose it's irrelevant to the main conversation anyway.
This is hardly relevant to the post at all.
But it's called the PLEDGE of allegiance. Kids around the country are asked to recite a PLEDGE every day. Why should we ask them to PLEDGE something about a belief in God if we live in a secular country? Faith should be practiced and kept in churches.
And your rhetorical question is nonsensical. Driving by a church is not comparable to instructing schoolchildren to say something religious.
It doesn't go against seperation of state and church because it's not forcing a religion on you. It just says the word god.
THANK YOU! See, this is another reason why I find you just so dang awesome.
Same with the money too.
Separation of church and state: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting free exercise thereof."
Not "God cannot be mentioned anyone within the government, ever." It means that Congress cannot control your religious beliefs. And these small references to God do not control your religious beliefs.
It is a blatant violation of separation of church and state. Everyone just goes along with it because that's the way it's been since before they were born, and they feel like they can't change "American tradition", even though it really isn't. So I care. If everyone really loved God so much, they would realize that He doesn't need His glory exemplified on our money. And students may not be required by the rules to say the pledge, but if you don't say it, the teacher gets on you about being disrespectful. Kids are pressured into praising God at school every morning. I know that isn't really that big of a deal because the kid CAN go against it, but it's the principle of it that I hate. The government isn't supposed to show favor to any religion, which I realize they aren't doing since every major religion believes in a "God", but they shouldn't show favor to religion in general, either.
I completely agree.
How does it show favoritism to one particular religion? It just says God. Not the Christian God, just God.
Okay, praising isn't the right word. But the point still stands. Acknowledging God, how's that?
The country was not founded on Christianity. Deists. They liked the Bible's teachings, they didn't think it was true. Like a nursery rhyme. No, I don't study my money, the principle is the issue. When it says "In God we trust", that implies that the United States is a Christian nation. That's like saying we're a white nation.
"In God We Trust" is not something the Founding Fathers would have wanted on money. It wasn't even added to money until 1864. It has no foundation in the founding fathers' beliefs or the constitution of the country.
And why exactly does there have to be separation between church and state?
That's a funny question.
I do have to pay attention to them. It's on every single form of cash, and I was forced to say the pledge of allegiance everyday in school. Church and State need to be kept separate.
Well, our country WAS founded by Christians, and America is still the most religious of the developed western countries. I think if the pledge and seal had been created just now, it would be an issue, but these things are far in the past and we must forgive the men for being a product of their times where virtually every person believed in God. Atheism did not have significant numbers until more recently. People who are offended need to learn to ignore it and move on. If you don't think this God fellow exists, then why should you care anyways?
DEISTS! FOUNDED BY DEISTS! Holy goddamn monkey balls, why is this so hard for people to grasp? Most of the founding fathers liked the Bible morally speaking, but they didn't believe it as factual accounts of events. They also believed that God created the universe, then left it alone to run itself. No, I will not ignore it and move on. The government is forcing religion on me, and I won't have it. They portray the United States as a Christian nation, and it isn't. I don't want to live in a Christian nation or a nation that appears to be crazy for Jesus. Your logic is backwards, I care precisely because I don't think God exists. I wouldn't care if I DID think He existed.
take a chill pill. The religious world isn't out to get you. We are all perfectly capable of walking the other way, that's what tolerance means. You just seem to be swinging the pendulum the other way with your extreme paranoia and seeming intolerance of religious ideas
I'm paranoid because I don't want Christianity forced on me? It is neither intolerant nor paranoid to want the government to keep religion out of the public and government.
Nobodys forcing anything on you it just days 'we' you don't have to include yourself in the we if you dont want to, simple as that
That comparison is flawed. You can say whatever you want. I don't care. But expecting me to say it is another story.
You feel incorrectly. This issue may not be important to you, but it is to me.
Can I ask you a question? It isn't meant to troll or be inflammatory or disrespectful, I would just like you to think about this for a moment. What if our money said 'In Allah We Trust' or we said 'One nation, under Zeus' in the pledge? How would you feel about that?
Imagine you live in a society where your religion is not the majority, then.
My point is that there's no reason for any of it to be there, so why include it and by doing so exclude some of the population?
Most atheists are willing to settle for what little representation and tolerance they can get. I'm not.
Taking god out of the pledge wouldn't gain Athiest representation? So why does it even matter? If we changed it from god to gods for people who believe in multiple ones, it would sure seem like they're being represented. And then monotheistic religions would get much more uppity than the athiests are now. ._.
If you do not like this country. Then leave. And dont live here. Problem solved, we got enough problems to deal with already.
Good for the people at your school. And Muslims, Jews, and atheists are the groups that are discriminated against the most. Today, mostly Muslims and atheists (at least in the west). Even if atheists aren't discriminated against, they're still hated.
Intolerance has to be based on race? A lot of people absolutely hate atheists. Google "most hated groups in America". Until recently, atheists were number one. Muslims number three. I'd call that intolerance. Oh, and being told that I'm going to burn in hell and that I'm an evil Satan worshipper. That makes me feel pretty untolerated.
Please believe this isn't sarcasm: is it possible for you to worship Satan if you don't believe in a god?
No, it is not. But people don't understand that and they think atheism=satanism.
I don't think that's why. There was a twitter page about American Atheists Inc. That I saw. There were hundreds of comments that were threatening and hateful. Christians saying that we're all doomed, and that they'll kill Dave Silverman if they ever meet him. That was all purely based on the different beliefs.
"Atheists are often total dicks". That's so stereotypical. It's like saying, "Muslims are often terrorists".
How do you know that other people have had the same experience?
And also, maybe instead of "Muslims are often terrorists", it was "Muslims are often total dicks". It could have been my experience. But that is clearly untrue.
Well in my experience, most Christians are crazy bible thumpers and shove their religion down throats. So obviously, that's representative of the entire Christian religion (at least according to your prejudiced logic).
Then we are in agreement? Everyone is an asshole?
You dont have to be a Christian to believe in God you don't even have to be religious. Then don't use the fucking money then if you care so much, why don't you move to a secluded village where you can trade shit for a living
You're either a troll or an idiot. Either way, fuck off :)
Founded by Deists. See my comment down below
1. This country was founded by secularist.
2. "God" was added to both the pledge and money in the 1950's. It's not even tradition.
Atheists are a minority, and the pledge of allegiance is about the majority. Does that mean it should go like this: One straight, white nation, under god...?
No. Of course not.
The only reason it was added was the "Red Scare" of the 1950's, since we wanted to show that we did not agree with those "godless commies."
This was probably said before, but in all honesty, who gives a shit?
Anyone who doesn't like their money can give it all to me.
Honestly? There are MUCH more important things this country should be worrying about.
This is why I don't say the pledge anymore.
Back then, there were virtually no atheists, so their version of "separation of church and state" just meant not saying which god you were referring to.
In 1900, only 1000 people in America were Atheist/Agnostic, 0.0%
In the 70's only .1% of America.
Now there are 15 million in America, and that's just Atheists, about 5% of people, and there are 16.1% of people with no religion.
By comparison, virtually no one in the 1950's were atheists, and certainly most did not care enough to complain.
It's not like it's hurting anyone, having "God" on the money.
I am going to assume you are a Christian. So let's imagine that America's founding fathers had wanted separation of church and state, and then mostly Muslims immigrated to the United States and lived here. As time went on, most of the Muslims would see America as a "Muslim Nation." What if there were a very small amount of Christians, and our money said "In Allah We Trust," and we said "Under Allah" during the pledge of allegiance. You may still think that it's a silly thing to fight, but I can guarantee you that Christians would be throwing a lot more of a fit than atheists are now.
All that matters is that the government has no place in religion and vice versa. It shouldn't be saying anything about God, including whether or not He exists. No matter what your beliefs are, this is a secular nation, not a theocracy.
Actually, no, I'm not Christian,
but I don't think that would happen. I don't even think that if over 50% of the US is Atheist then they would change it. It doesn't really matter. This post is specifically saying that it NEVER should have, but I'm saying that such an insignificant as .5% of the population not believing in God didn't really matter. Saying "God" didn't seem like they were specifying a religion, and seemed fine.
Well they obviously aren't talking to polytheists, atheists, deists, and many groups in between, and those groups are being excluded. Why mention a religion at all?
No, they're not. about .1% of the population was atheist. I'd say .4% fell into the other categories.
Why does it matter how large or small the group is? Our country is specifically set up in such a way as to NOT be a democracy; the majority may not take away the rights of the minority.
Yes, but in a group of two-hundred, if one does not agree, and doesn't voice their opinion, who gives a shit? Who would even know?
In a group of 200, around 40 would fit into the categories I listed, not 1. That is one out of every five people. That is a larger percent than gays, blacks, and many other minority groups.
People HAVE voiced their opinions, that is the problem. Many courts have ruled against the Constitution in this case.
I'm not talking about now. First of all, that is an untrue statistic, unless you are also referring to all religions that aren't Christian. And second of all, in the 1950's, yes, it would be about 1 or 2 people.
There were plenty of atheists back then. I believe when Maryland was founded, it granted religious tolerance to all Christians, specifically stating that Jews, atheists, and other minorities were not granted equal protection.
Then there was no separation of church and state, either way, the OP is wrong
I'm so glad this is positive
You might want to check again. Unless I'm missing sarcasm.
Is theism being favored if 'one nation under God' is in the Pledge? Yes. However, is atheism being favored if 'one nation under God' is NOT in the Pledge? No.
E Pluribus Unum > In God We Trust.
Seriously, it represents what the US was founded on so perfectly.
E pluribus unum is latin for out of many, one.....
I know that...
What are you saying?
Oh...sorry. I didn't notice you had an inequality there
Oh lol XD
In God we trust is our national motto. That's why it's on our money...
The government just had a meeting about it a week or so ago, just to affirm it is still our motto. Nope, hasn't changed; thanks government. What would we do without you?
It shouldn't be the national motto either.
But the government decided..
For fucks sake, really? IF IT OFFENDS YOU SO ***DAMN MUCH DON'T SAY THE WORDS.
I bleeped out the G word because I didn't want anyone to think that I was trying to convert them and attack their religion or lack thereof.
kinda forced to at school
As for money: I don't care. A penny is a penny even if it has "fuck you" written on it. As for the pledge: I don't want my teacher to be my pastor.
I definitely agree. Those words should never have been introduced into anything created by the government.
That being said, it isn't a major deal anymore.
Reading through these comments make me lose faith in the world. Is it seriously that big of a deal? It's not like it says something like, "GOD IS REAL AND WE ALL BELIEVE IN HIM."
What is it saying then, in your opinion?
Who the fuck cares? No one can affect your mind. Its your brain not anyone elses
You know, from my experiences, British kids and parents never gave a damn about having to say a prayer everyday in school. And I didn't even go to a religiously affiliated school.
So why are so many Americans butthurt about some kids periodically having to say the words 'under God' in a pledge they probably don't even pay attention to while reciting?
Whiny people like to whine.
Don't like the references to God? You don't have to say them; I've heard MANY people just eliminate the words "under God" when they say the pledge, if they say it at all. Hell, my Catholic school doesn't even say "God Bless America" at the end.
Saying "In God we trust" does not necessarily mean the Christian God. It can mean whatever God (or lack thereof) YOU believe in and trust. That's how I think of it. God is just the universal word for "trusted force/diety/etc."
Is that completely wacky?
It is perhaps a little wacky. Politicians can reference God if they so choose, though it will certainly piss off/confuse/offend people who don't have the same beliefs as them. The issue is when our government (which is supposed to abide by separation of church and state) is referencing religion on our currency, with national mottos, and in public places. It shouldn't be. We either need to follow the Constitution or get rid of it. I don't see how people believe we can just ignore the law.
You're right in saying that you can interpret it about not being related to the Christian god, but what about people who don't believe in God? OR a deity or 'trusted force.' How should they interpret it?
No "god" is the word for any "trusted force/diety/etc" "God" is the word for the Christian god.
Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, and many of the founding fathers were deists
DEISTS! FUCKING DEISTS!
Calm down bro
I'm calm, just tired of people saying that we were founded on Christianity. The comment has more weight in all caps.
Yup and Christian values are almost universal.
And guess what? I learned this from a Christian school. Schools in the south would rewrite a bit of history to say that it was founded by Christians but everyone knows its deists.
Christian values are almost universal? No, but morality is almost universal. The Bible has a lot of 'values' it talks about that many Christians don't agree with. So they cherry pick. They think wearing polyester is okay, or masturbation isn't so bad, or it's okay to be around a woman while she's on the rag. Tons of Christians think that their God probably doesn't give a shit if two guys have sex, either. Besides, how do you reconcile two completely conflicting values? If someone punches you in the face, do you take the 'eye for an eye' approach? Or turn the other cheek? Some more radical Christians would say the former, however most Christians AND atheists I've met say the latter. And they would say that if it was written in the Bible or not.
tl;dr We get our morality from the same place. We need to stop calling our values Christian values when they don't have much to do with Christianity.
Exactly, I meant that morality is universal. Sorry for making you type.
Well don't I feel stupid. I guess I forgive you.
Actually, it was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. "God" wasn't on money or in the pledge when the country was founded.