YOUR MOM couldn't have possibly been so well-designed by accident!
I'm a Christian but I think the whole "nature is soooo pretty it must prove God is real!" argument is bullshit. It's not even really an argument because it's completely illogical. If the world was created by some big bang then it's possible it might be just as beautiful.
It's not based so shallowly on the idea that things are simply "pretty". Nature is complex, and in that complexity you see the beauty of it. I mean it is some really cool stuff. From leaves to whales it's all extremely amazing and detailed.
Well yes, and I understand there are also coincidences like our perfect proximity to the sun, how water expands when it freezes, etc. but that's just not proof.
You call this shit well-designed?
When you say "this shit", do you mean like this day and age, this modern stuff we have? Or do you mean the way humans and the earth and the universe look and work?
Just pointing out: Judaism and Islam says that too.
Says what? Cause there's a lot of nonsense going on up there ^ about sinning and shit.
Not all that necessarily, but the post itself.
Oh, fair enough. I guess so, yes. But Islam doesn't particularly disprove evolution in any way, so you're allowed to believe in it within the frames of religion, or not believe in it if you want. Islam is pretty much pro-science. So it works both ways.
that is an exteremelly vague question. to some, God comes from the very beginning, while to others, he's just something created by humans. it's almost as if your asking "is God real?";you're going to get different answers.
There are still loads of human design flaws...like the inside on the brain is uneven so there's more of a chance of brain damage. Also...guys balls are so vulnerable, if other animals caught onto that weakness we'd be fucked. I wouldn't appreciate kangaroos aiming low.
What about girls' balls?
The testicles on a male are a "weakness" because they contain DNA to be passed on to the next generation. Do you understand why we feel pain? When your body feels itself being damaged, it sends a signal saying "make it stop you idiot." Places that are extremely important (such as the ones that contain DNA to be passed on) feel more pain because they are essential to passing on your genes and therefore need to be protected more.
But the human body leaves them in a VERY vulnerable place, not that they feel a lot of pain
Yes, and it is the smart humans who stay away from kangaroos that want to kick their nutsack. Pretty much any other species could say "Wow we'd be fucked if those humans used their guns on us, it must be god keeping us safe."
Wait what? I was just saying that they are in a very vulnerable place for seemingly no reason, and it would be better if they were somewhere protected
You all are missing the point. Assume you believe God is real. What's the purpose of him sending us to Earth? To be tested. To be tested, you have to be able to make choices, correct? If everyone can choose, some people will choose to do bad things. If God prevented bad things, that would take away people's agency and therefore defeat the whole purpose of Earth. And there has to be Satan. There has to be opposition in all things, otherwise life would be easy and not much of a test, right?
So we can live up to our full potential?
But God is omnipotent and thus omniscient, meaning he knows even as he send a human to earth to be tested where they will end up.
God's all powerful right? So why even allow Satan to be evil. Couldn't he have just altered Lucifer so that he wouldn't turn against him?
Religion is just a tool used to civilize the un-civilized man, and its a tool that is misunderstood and misused. The Bible was written by man, passed down through word of mouth for generations before it was written, therefore there is no way it is the same as the actual events it details.
(1) Satan was originally an angel. All angels are born/made with a complete understanding of God, unlike humans, so trying to be better than God, which Satan tried to do, was considered an irreversible, mortal sin. (2) God gave everyone free will. God does not control people. Think about it: Would you want to control someone to love you? Or would you want them to love you of their own choice? Of their own FREE WILL?
I agree with your second point. But the first point is not backed by the Christian Church. I think it is a belief in Mormanism, but it is not accepted by many Christians. There is no evidence to back up this point.
Not a Christian, don't believe in Satan as some other Power, but holy crap dude. Going with the idea that Satan is some other Power (lower than God, as he was created by Him, as you said), then there goes Man's choice between good and bad. If there's no bad inclination, then...
How are humans well designed? Most of what we have done on Earth involves fighting wars, killing people, enslaving people, destroying nature, and treating people different because of superficial qualities.
You call that well designed?
Evil exists in this world there is no doubt. And humans are not perfect, but there is no denying that physically humans are well designed.
That's not what God designed us to be, that's what we have chosen to do. Or do you think that a well designed human would be without free will?
(Doctor_Who):Have you read the other comments? Because if you have then you'd have see the term "free will" used a lot.
Cue the debate....
Lol you're speaking of it like Earth (and the universe and all of that) were just born yesterday. If it had been like this on the first day, I would gladly agree it couldn't have been this precise and well-constructed on accident and would immediately go for the creationism theory, but it took fucking FOUR BILLION YEARS for all this to set up slowly to what is it today, and it's still improving, or at least trying to, against all human efforts to destroy it.
I believe in a higher being. I suppose you can call him God. I believe God created the universe and is now living his life through the perspective of each one of us. We are God. Part of this scenario is that we don't remember ever being God or ever living through all of these different perspectives, but I believe that once we die we go back to "God mode" where we can reflect on all of the lives we have lived and even start a new universe... but that's just me.
well that's an interesting view.
It makes sense to me.. From the Christianity perspective, I imagine a being floating around in infinite darkness with nothing but its imagination to keep it entertained. So it imagines what we know as the universe.
I don't mean to be insulting, but your religious believes would make a good screenplay.
That's more or less what I think too...
Who said creationism and evolution don't work well together?
What if God created the beginning, and things started evolving, moving and changing and turning into the world that exists before us today.
They don't need to work against each other, they can work with each other.
Science and Religion doesn't need to work against each other either!
In fact, in the Quran, it states a big bang of sorts ((40:11) Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.) , which supports science.
^^ well said.... God created humans to be perfect... but he also gave them free will... when adam and eve sinned, they lost their perfection and it set up all the problems in the world....
As for the apendix..... im not sure thats a valid arguement....
Silly theists, trying to be logical..
God and Satan are just the personification and rationalization of good and evil. Behind the flags of religion countless wars have been waged, no one considering the possibility they are missing the point. People fear what they don't comprehend so they create the different religions to ease their ignorance. None of them realize that all religions start in the same place.
I'm sorry, but this is not a valid argument. "Behind the flags of religion countless wars have been waged" - that does not in any way explain why ALL religions, with NO exceptions, call for peace and equality and decency and humanity. In fact, religion in most cases helped civilize the places it arrived to. And not all religions start in the same place, idiot. Buddhim did not originate from the same place Islam did, and Islam did not originate in the same place Christianity or Judaism did (yes, they were all in the Middle East, but in different places.) And it doesn't explain why newer religions appeared in places that already had a religion, because then they wouldn't have a need to "ease their ignorance," would they?
Lastly, don't blame religion for human evil. Religion is good. People are bad and use it as an excuse to do harm. Even as a non-believer, anyone who has read anything into religion would realize none of it calls for any harm.
OK, first glad you called someone an idiot when you can't even understand what they said. Religion originated in every corner but the basic premises behind them all are the same. So stfu and think before you speak. All religion supports peace and love for your neighbor as well as to respect the "creator" and honor its creations.
...the basic premise behind all religions was not the same. They called for belief in a higher power, perhaps, but then against most atheists seem to find science a higher power. And the basic premise of each religion differs. Christianity, for instance, has the basic premise of all of us being born with sin that we must cleanse (or most sections of it, anyway) whereas Islam does not. Buddhism and Hinduism and Sikhism each have totally different premises. Hinduism does not even call for belief in a single higher power, but MANY different entities of higher powers.
Lastly, I /said/ religions support peace and love, it was the other who said differently. And yes, I called them an idiot because what they said was idiotic.
Congrats, you are officially retarded! First of all yes, the crusades were a war about... religion!!! I wouldn't call that striving for peace. Often times during colonization "uncivilized" peoples had religion thrust upon them, along with numerous other foreign diseases. And when anon (that smart fellow up there) says religion originates in the same place, he means in the minds of human beings. Oh and the whole "NO exceptions" thing-- was it just me or did we kinda have that 9/11 thing?
9/11 was not a religious attack. It was a terrorist attack. Kindly refrain from making an ass of yourself.
Ah the fun of ignoring 95 percent of the comment.
I didn't ignore the rest of the comment, I simply chose to comment on only one part of it.
By the way what was with all that "death to the infidel" stuff then?
Actually, yes, religion is based in ignorance. Who's to say the religions we scoff at nowadays (such as the ancient Greeks) are any less correct than yours? Is it because you "just know and believed in God"? Do you think the Greeks weren't absolutely sure there was no Zeus? When humanity progresses, and I'm sure it will, people will look back 2000 years from now and call us ignorant savages for believing in a 2000 year old carpenter who was his own father.
What I'm asking is what makes you think with such conviction that YOUR religion is right.
I ask everyone. I understand how simple logic is hard to comprehend, you must be absolutely dead.
When you speak with such certainty about religion, I'm gonna call you out on it. That's how things work, champ.
I don't know why you keep picking certain religions. Religion itself is based in ignorance and narcissism. I don't speak with certainty that your religion is wrong, I'm simply acknowledging the fact of how little we both know. The conclusion I have arrived at, which is atheism, seems the most logical. I do not profess to know the nature of the universe, I only seek to understand as much of it as I can. Yes, I realize atheism has it's flaws, but they are far and away the least of any system I have yet encountered.
The crusaders used Christianity as a cover for their own personal desires. And as for islam? I'm not familiar with all of there beliefs, but in the bible way back in the old testament there is talk of a man who will create a religion that will seek to destroy christianity. This religion is believed to be islam.
Yes but the pope not only allowed them, he supported them. Religion creates more conflicts than it resolves.
if you have read the bible, you would know these flaws result from Adam and eve, who corrupted the human race by sinning against God, so no, it's not a mistake. I'm sorry I can't answe your other point.
So God demanded Adam and Eve follow a rule which required the understanding of right and wrong, but didn't give them that knowledge until after they (his best creations) were tricked by a talking snake?
And then, he holds a four thousand year grudge...?
So Adam and Eve didn't have appendixes, then?
yes, and cinderella really had a fairy godmother.
Ignorant people like yourself will be sorry when judgment day really comes.
You mean last Saturday?
Which scientist says that the universe is well-designed by accident? In every branch of science there is a theory for optimization, so everything naturally falls into a pattern that works best. Just because humans cannot begin to imagine how to recreate this pattern doesn't mean that it was created by a god.
There's a difference between an accident and circumstances being favorable for life.
We're busy doing evolution in life sciences (bio) and my teacher just about gags everytime the phrase "intelligent design" comes up, as well as muttering choice words under her breath.
yeah, I don't think it is. I mean, earlobes have no purpose, but does that prove anything? no. and I'm pretty sure that the appendix is part of the immune system, if you're trying to say it's a "leftover" of evolution.
Earlobes help you hear better.
Yeah, no. Where the fuck did "god" come from, then?
God exists outside of time. In fact, He created time. Things only have a beginning and an end in time, but if God created time and had a beginning or an end, then He would not be infinite and would be bound by his own creation.
And you know this how exactly...?
they read it somewhere, maybe the bible, so it must be true.
That's a common question many ask, but let me ask you this: Go as far back in time as you would like. Go ahead. Visit the big bang theory perhaps! Keep going until you hit a point where you have to bang your head against the wall and accept that there is some sort of power or force that created the universe. How come that can't be God?
You have to take into account how vast the universe is. This was bound to happen, but of course we must think that it wasn't by chance.
This is fucking stupid. Another clear example that religion is narcissistic and overestimates our importance in the universe. The universe, earth, the sun - they weren't created perfectly for us. We evolved to be perfect for the preexisting conditions. There are billions of galaxies with billions of stars with dozens of planets. I'd say out of that sample area, there are going to be quite a few places with perfect conditions.
I don't disagree with this at all, but I love how you speak with such perfect confidence about things that haven't been proven yet. The truth is, we don't know. That's why there's doubt, and that's why there's faith. Science doesn't disprove anything, but you can't prove it WASN'T created perfectly for us based on an educated guess.
CRUMPLE-HORNED SNORCKACKS. That is all.
My sentiments EXACTLY.
OMGZ I love religious debates.
GOD DOESN'T EXIST!
YES HE DOES YOU IDIOT THE BIBLE SAYS SO!
Do we really make any progress here? Honestly, both sides of the debate are at fault.
I'm so confused... What are you getting at?
I'm just stating an example. My point was that those kinds of arguments are useless.
But almost all Christians use arguments that originate from the bible.
This is towards the bottom so not a lot of people will see this but I just had to get my point across.
Let's say you have a watch. But it's all broken up and all that you really have are the pieces to make a watch. Now let's say you have a paper bag. If you put the watch pieces in the bag, shake up the bag, and open up the bag, what are the chances of the watch being completely put back together?
There is no possible way that watch could be put back together without some sort of intelligence putting it back together.
Think about it.
Say you shake it billions and billions of times. I'm not saying that would work, but its not like it was all luck
When you can list the exact purposes for every individual atom that inhabits the universe, get back to me and I will believe that 'proof' of yours. Until then, I reject your highly flawed logic.
Any of you guys ever heard of Deism?
Trying to prove the existence of God is a fool's errands. People have been trying to make a logical argument for the existence (or non-existence) of God since before Christ, and we are still no closer. If you want to believe in something beyond the natural world, beyond science, if faith is all you need then good luck to you, but don't pretend that it has any rational basis.
One day, long ago, there was a man who challenged a learned religious scholar to a debate to prove, once and for all, whether the worlds came about by creationism or evolution. They set an appointed time on a certain day. Crowds from far and wide flocked to the city for the big debate. As the time for the debate came about, the religious scholar had still not arrived. The evolutionist and crowd waited for him for over an hour. When, finally, he arrived, they questioned him concerning his late arrival. The religious scholar said that when he had woken up, he found that his horse had gone. This meant that the man had to walk to the event. On the way, there was a river which he had to cross. This river had a current which was too strong and thus rendered it impossible to wade through. Nearby the river, there was , however, a palm tree. The religious scholar said that the palm tree had, of its own accord, cut itself down, hollowed itself out and ferried the man across the river. Obvious...
(Continued)....Obviously, the evolutionist and crowd thought the scholar had lost it when he gave this explanation; how could a tree act on its own? The scholar then said: "this parable I have related to prove to you: how is it that if you can not believe such a small thing as a tree to have acted in this way on its own, you somehow believe that the entire universe in all its balances and measures came into existence on its own?
But it took billions of years for the universe to become what it is today.
I'm definitely going to have to disagree with this one. For one thing, just because we humans cannot understand/ explain why the universe is the way it is, doesn't mean we should invent an explanation. There is no reason to think that something created Earth, let alone the entire universe and everything that exists. Also, the universe does not seem particularly well-ordered; it's chaotic and unpredictable. Looking beyond the "perfection" of Earth, it's easy to imagine that such randomness formed things.
My last point is that you used the term "Christianity". Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Judaism suggested the idea of creationism first. I think Muslims follow creationism too, but I'm not certain. Islam is based off of Judaism and Christianity so I'm assuming they do. By saying that Christians have good points, you immediately turn this debate into an Us vs Them, Christians vs Atheists, Creationism vs Evolution kind of argument, and I don't think that's what you wanted to do.
Sure it's chaotic and unpredictable, but like what, you mean like natural disasters and bad mutations? Dude, I saw this one flying bug with this ridiculously exact pattern on it's back - two exact triangles in an hourglass shape. You call that chaotic? Or that every single tree has green leaves? Or genetics? Genetics are freaking pro. It's ridiculous how orderly and put-together this world is, if it all started from some meteorites. And speaking of meteorites, [put-together-ness of stars rant here].
Did you really just say the fact that leaves are green is proof God exists?
All leaves. If everything's chaotic and unpredictable and goes on it's own terms, why don't we have, like, purple leaves? And if it's because of [insert scientific explanation here], why can't there be another thing? If it's all just chaotic and stuff.
Also, you're totally nitpicking.
I could write pages of why leaves are green, but it boils down to it better allows them to survive. It's no accident, if purple helped them survive leaves would be purple. Your logic is just... Retarded.
And it better allows them to survive because of this, and then that, and then the other thing, and you're completely missing the point. And where do you get the idea that I think it's an accident?
Looking around is clear proof of God. Nothing this great could be made by accident. Sure there are bad things too, but God has a reason for everything.
God had reasons for the holocaust? Sick bastard...
Coming from you, wow...
I don't believe everything happens for a reason. People have free will, bad things happen for no reason, and everybody dies. People who believe "everything happens for a reason" are just going to be disappointed the day they don't find one.
God has a reason for 9/11? For the earthquake in Japan? Yeah, that'll teach us..
God didn't make those things happen. If your a Christian and believe in God, then there is a high probability that you believe in Satan. When Adam and Eve sinned Satan temporarily received control of "this world" and all of it's evil.
...Wait why am I arguing with a self proclaimed troll again?
so wait, Satan's in control of the world? Did I read that wrong?
Yes, Satan does try to control the world. Most Christians do not see the world as a nice place.
you think it is?
Not completely, just the evil parts.
Yeah but God designed the Earth and the plates that would subsequently cause earthquakes.
God just doesn't feel like stopping the Earth (his creation) from killing his children? Sorry, run that by me one more time?
Yeah, God only gives people free choice when they do good things, not when they do bad things. sarcasm. People are not controlled by God.
There's this magical thing. It's called FREE WILL. He isn't going to control us. That's the blessing of being able to do whatever.
So free will applies to earths tectonic plates?
No...No they aren't. Climate, behavior, genetics, animals, predator, prey are part of natural selection. Earthquakes and tsunamis fall under "natural disasters" along with forest fires, etc.
Natural selection is akin to survival of the fittest. Animals and plants that are suited to survive a certain environment will continue to survive. If something outside of that environments norm occurs, like an earthquake or a forest fire or a tornado, that is called a natural disaster. Animals don't survive by adopting to natural disasters, they survive by adapting to their environment, in which natural disasters may occur.
Find me one textbook that states "Earthquakes and tsunamis are a part of natural selection" and I will admit fault. Because, yes, I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, I'm not. Do enlighten me with a credible source that supports that statement. Here's one that supports mine from berkley,
furthermore, even if I am wrong, the matter of whether or not it's natural selection has no merit on the question that I put forward: Why won't god stop these from happening? Are you saying it's not in his control?
What does free will have to do with natural disasters? And those who are killed because of them?
Do you mean to say God cannot stop these natural disasters from killing people? And if he can, why doesn't he?
I believe that God makes bad things happen, like the earthquake in Japan, so that people with more can help out those in need, so we don't become selfish.I view it as like a test.
Fair enough, but he does so at the cost of thousands of lives. Trade thousands of lives for the temporary salvation of humanity from selfishness? I'm not sure I'm okay with that thought.
Yes, I thought that at first, too. But some of those lives get to have eternal life in heaven.
If they were christian... majority of the japanese went straight to hell, right?
That's the sad thing. That's why Christians want to try to convert people. I know it may come off as annoying, but it's really because we want to see people get into heaven.
I can see that point of view, but at the same time, there are other religions that assert Christians are going to hell for the reason that they aren't Jewish, muslim, whatever, etc.
Play tug and war with whose religion is the one that'll get you into heaven all you want, but you'll only be trampling on others beliefs.
furthermore, christianity shouldn't be about getting into heaven. It's supposed to be about love, but almost everyone makes it about who gets into heaven. They convert people so they may go to heaven, catholics go to confession so they may go to heaven, church every sunday to get into heaven.
Converting people from something as precious to them as their religion just cause you want them to make it into heaven is pretty much pissing all over their beliefs, since it essentially states that their beliefs are wrong, christians are right. And it's stupid since there's no proof for any religion. It's called respect.
@1251264 (troll_monster): population controll. if we have another 1 million or maybe 1 billion people on the planet, we will run out of resources. imagaine if all those people live and reproduced and how many more people there would be. however, i dont belive in god and he did those bad things with a purpose. shit happens. thats life. thats what i beleive at least.
i cant figure out whether you're being sarcastic or serious
Actually, there are some major flaws in the human being, which proofs that either God made mistakes or that we do descend from primates. For example the appendix.
Um... Actually... The appendix was not-so-recently proven to have something to do with white blood cells and something else. In a good way. And even if it's all evolution, evolution doesn't create something for nothing.
It's actually a vestigial organ. It's believed to have had a use at some point during our history, but is now obsolete.
Guess who's studying evolution in bio class?
Also, I am a Christian, but I also believe in evolution, so I'm not just trying to be a smart aleck.
That's true. And for anyone else who has been studying evolution in bio, you would know that evolution does not specifically PROVE or DISPROVE God.
(Your+name+(optional)): Very true, but we can't have both of them. That option is right out, there is no possible way for both God and science to coexist, like God creating life and evolution taking over from there. Ya know, why would anyone think that's possible?
What about God creating science?
Sooo yeah, they can coexist.
Good sir, did you not detect the sarcasm?
Oooh, my bad. I missed the last sentence.
whatev, no harm done
The genealogical timelines in the bible tracing adam to noah to david would be impossible. It would consist of humans living for millions of years. There's at least SOME conflict between the two.
I wouldn't say that the appendix is a 'major flaw'. It's just kind of purposeless.
Actually many scientists agree that the appendix at some point in time was actually used to culture bacterial growth. Because some bacteria is actually beneficial to our health in the old days when societys were much smaller and nomadic it was necessary to have an appendix. But now that modern sociey is so urbanized and, well germy, it's no longer necessary to have an organ that helps bacteria grow.
But if you believed only with evolution, shouldn't evolution have removed your appendix and your tonsils?
evolution isn't just like a magical switch that automatically makes every species awesome. there are flaws, and there are things that eventually become obsolete. but the process takes millions of years, and affects populations, not individuals.
Evolution isn't perfect, they served a point at some time, and are still there
All throughout history, there have been countless religions, many of which I'm sure we're not even aware have even existed. They were forgotten, abandoned, hardly anyone practices them anymore, if anyone at all. Why should modern day religions be so different? Surely all the religions that we know today will fade with time, having the same fate as religions before them. Some people have a hard time grasping the concept that humans are it, the end of the line. Whether or not it's true, I don't know. Why are people so desperate for a higher being? Are there things we can't comprehend? Sure. But I believe that one day, science will be able to explain everything and anything.
Science sure does explain a lot of things. Science explains things that have always been around. I think people often like to credit science with creating the things they discover. But if you would like to say that science will eventually explain everything then I challenge you this: Science itself says that matter cannot be created. Then tell me where everything in this universe came from? You may jump to the big bang theory. Well please tell me where the atoms that caused the big bang came from. WHAT caused all this? You keep going further and further back, but eventually you hit a point where there is undoubtedly a higher force that caused all of this. And why can't that be God? Because of what the world tells you about religion? Because of the hypocrites you see everyday?
NO. The flaw in your God theory? "Oh, well something must have created the universe… God did!"
"Oh.. right… well who or what created God?"
"Eh nevermind that, He has always been around…"
--->Why not jump to the conclusion that this reality as we know has always been around? In the end, something has to have no beginning. Why go one unnecessary step further by giving credit to an all-powerful, unnoticeable, undetectable, omnipresent being? Forgive me if that idea in the last sentence sounds slightly preposterous.
Because stuff here dies, mutates, grows again, changes. God as we see Him doesn't do that. He's unchanging. Forever, whatever the hell that means.
Also, it's a lot easier to explain things here. Atoms, photosynthesis, evolution. You really think it'd be so easy to explain something that's been around since always (whatever the hell that means)?
My rebuttal: stop trying to explain the universe with what some call the "God-leap" or in other words, "At this point in time, we cannot conceivably discern a future point in time in which we will be able to rationalize it scientifically, so that must mean God did it"
That is absolutely not what I'm saying and I don't know how you concluded that I was.
Like I said, I'm not discounting anything. But I just see religion as rationalization of things that we don't understand yet. People don't like having open ended questions pertaining to something huge, like the universe, so religion is born.
I think that might be a shallow way to look at religion. Sure people look for answers in religion, but its so much more passionate than that.
I mean that's how religion started in the first place. People wanted answers to things they couldn't explain. It's escalated to alot more than that nowadays.
THANK YOU, my thoughts to a tee.
Excuse me while I go and re-read your post and laugh at your ignorance.