I agree with the general point, but most theists don't act moral out of fear of divine punishment or a desire for eternal reward -- they do it because they're good people and those just happen to be consequences and rewards. It's like volunteerism. Some people may do it because if they would look bad if they didn't or because they want to feel good about themselves, but most do it simply because it's a nice thing to do. There are still consequences and rewards, but it's not their primary intention.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

I have to disagree. Looking at it logically, I think people believed in religion because it promised them an afterlife. Everyone's scared of death but with a religion, people don't have to have that fear anymore. Just like how myths and stories from long ago were told to explain the unknown, humans just want to know things, and religion allows them to do that.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

I agree with everything you said, but I don't see it's relevance. I was explaining why theists act moral and you are explaining why theists believe.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Well the same thing could be applied to acting. My point is that theists both act and believe in religion primarily because they yearn for an afterlife. I'm saying people don't believe in God and do what God says out of the goodness of their hearts, but rather because it's a roundabout way of not having to deal with death. For example, there are 2 very good people. One is an atheist and one is a theist. If they both commit the very same good deeds, the theist is no different than the atheist. However, he's the one that believes in a god in order to reap the rewards that come with, and that's the only difference.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Do you think people can be both good and selfish? I'm required to do 100 hours of community service a year for my scholarship. So when I'm doing it, I definitely have my selfish intentions that motivate me to do more than I otherwise would, but I also enjoy it and try and impact others in a good way.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Yeah, that's why I said "primary intention." Your primary intention is to fulfill your requirement, but you clearly have a secondary intention to impact others positively - which makes your act both good and selfish. I would argue that there is no such thing as a purely selfless act, so every act is a mix between goodness and selfishness.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Well, assuming there was a god his moral compass would essentially be the only actual moral authority in the universe, so whatever he decides is right becomes right regardless of what you'd think.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Just believing in God doesn't get you to heaven. Satan even believes in God. With Christianity, you have to believe in so much more. God can tell the difference in a person's heart, and He can see their true intentions.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way to get to heaven is to perform sacraments according to Christianity, right?

by Anonymous 12 years ago

That's just Catholicism.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Not quite. The catechism of the Catholic Church actually addresses whether or not "non-Christians" can get to heaven. It says that although the Church offers the means for salvation, those who are accidentally ignorant of the Church (i.e. those who have no way to know of or learn about Christianity) may still achieve salvation. In addition, they teach that God wants all people to be saved. Lastly, the Scripture hints that "non-Christians" do have a link to salvation, but no one's exactly sure what it is. http://archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302fea3.asp

by Anonymous 12 years ago

why do so many atheists believe that if god exists they should go to heaven anyway because they are "good people"? that's not how it works, why would you expect to be rewarded for denying his existence?

by Anonymous 12 years ago

I think that's a big part of why people don't like religion... So I can give money to charity, do hundereds of volunteer hours, make my friends feel better when they're having bad days, and pretty much be the best person in the world but because I can't force myself to beleive in a God I'm thrown into Hell. I was agnostic neutralist for a while, and I started inching more and more towards atheism, and I tried to fight it because it's hard to let go of something so... big. But I just can't. Do I really need to burn in Hell for eternity for that?

by Anonymous 12 years ago

I think a lot of atheist have trouble thinking about this subject the same way a religious person would.think of it this way, if a god was to exist then it would be up to them to decide what makes you a good person. if the only way to receive your reward after this life was to be a good person, then you would have to be what that god deems to be a good person to receive that reward. using the christian god as an example, he has laid out the requirements that you must meet to obtain your place in heaven. now as far as religions go Christians have extremely lenient requirements. follow his commandments, honor his word, accept him as your lord and savior, etc. those are his requirements. but if you do not meet those requirements you have no right to receive those rewards. if you don't do your work in school then you fail, this is because you have not met the requirements for a passing grade, if you have not met the requirements then you have no right to pass. many atheists say this is not fair, but nobody has ever told you that anything in life will live up to your personal opinion of fairness.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

It's contradictory, then, if your god is loving and caring but mercilessly shoves the rest of us into hell because he's offended that we don't also worship him while being good people and otherwise perfectly adhering to the moral code. And, for the record, you can't say your religion is the most tolerant if anyone- including rival sects of the same religion- who doesn't believe in your exact definition of god, has to suffer for all eternity.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

The moral code of Christianity is the Bible, so unless you are following the Bible, you're just your definition of "good" not His.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Ok, I guess I understand what your saying, it just still doesn't make any sense to me. He would know my thoughts and feelings, so couldn't he sense my inability to beleive in him? It's not like I try and convert people, or curse him, or hate him in any way (Atheists who do miss the point) it's just that I can't force myself to beleive in God anymore than Christians can force themselves to not beleive in him.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

honestly that really isn't a question I can answer. I know that some people believe that it is possible that in death god gives you a final chance to repent, perhaps if it is true it is meant for people like you. I do think that if you wish to believe that his presence touches your life that he will show you that he is there, all you gotta do is watch for the signs. personally I see what I believe to be proof of his existence everywhere I go everyday of my life. I think that god has a purpose for everyone, and perhaps at some point in your life he will show his existence to you, and it's up to you to accept it or deny it. like I said to Uzumaki_Naruto Christians use the phrase "not of this world" because life is somewhat like a test. and perhaps you have just yet to find the right study material.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

I see religion as something you get from the family you are born into. If the only way to heaven is through the luck of being born into the correct faith, I'm not sure its somewhere I want to be.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

not true at all, anyone can take up religion in their later years for many different reasons. and the people who do not come from a religious background often exhibit a stronger dedication to their religion than others because they have seen and lived the alternative, and they do not want to turn back.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

The only thing is that you still sin. I'm not saying that you sin a lot, it's just that everybody sins. The only way to get into heaven is to ask God for forgiveness. It's not just about believing in God, it's about asking him to forgive you and repenting against your sins.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

So instead of redeeming myself through changing as a person and trying hard to right the wrongs I've committed, sitting in a church for a couple of hours clears me of all wrongdoing and lets me into heaven? That's a terrible rewards system

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Going to church for a couple of hours is not how it works. Not even all Christians make it to heaven.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Well then how does asking God for forgiveness work? If all I need to do is ask him for forgiveness, why is there even a Hell if I can just do shit and then talk to God about it? I understand that I would need to repent, but the real emphasis seems to be on communing with god, not changing and working towards good.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

It's not only about asking for forgiveness, although that is a big part of it. You can't just do things and think, "God will forgive me for this later," God can tell what's in your heart. You still need to live your life according to God's word. The whole asking for forgiveness thing is for the inevitable times when you slip up.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

It is pretty simple to ask for forgiveness if you really believe, but you can't ask for it and then continue to do the same sins over and over. That would mean that you're not really committed to change. There is a Hell for those that don't ask for forgiveness, for those that did not ask to be saved, and those that did not follow the conditions eternal life. I'm not a religious guru or anything, but an atheist can't make it into heaven by being "good." No matter how good you think you are, you are still a sinner. You have to accept that and repent, which is what atheists do not do. There is an emphasis on communing with God which is why it is not just as simple as living a "good" life.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Christianity in simple terms: 1. God is love, and He loves all of us. 2. God calls us to love Him and all creation. 3. Sin is saying no (i.e. failing) to love, which in turn is saying no to God. 4. God forgives when we fail to love only if we truly intend to sin no more. There's much more to it than that, but it's a start. I've heard so many people say that you can sin as much as you want and still go to heaven as long as you ask for forgiveness. However, by sinning, you send God a message that you really don't desire his love or forgiveness. Asking for it later is really a mixed message, which is certainly not a good thing. The reason He allows us to ask for forgiveness is because He truly loves us and wants us to love Him back. If we truly want to love Him and show it in thought, word, and deed, then He takes us back no matter what our past actions are.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

If God loves all and understands all, then he would know I'm a good person and I don't hate the idea of his existence, and that I don't have the amount of faith required to believe in him. In addition, I just don't approve of condemning someone to hell because of whom they'd like to hold hands with even though he apparently created everything.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

This. Atheism really isn't a choice. I could go to church and pray and all that fun stuff if I really felt like it, but at the end of the day I still wouldn't believe in any of it. Not really anyone's fault there.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

I just think that if God is the infinite source of love and wisdom he's touted to be, it would be of no consequence whether I believe in him or not if I do good and improve the world he apparently created. It's not about being rewarded for denying faith, it's being rewarded for doing good without it.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

well for a god I personally think the requirements of the Christian religion are very lenient. honor him, follow his rules, and accept him as your savior. and if you falter all you need to do is ask for forgiveness. a god is not bound to follow your subjective human opinion of good and fair because what a god says is good and fair is absolute because he would be the creator. just like living with your parents, their rules are what goes because they created you and and you live on their property. even if your belief does not effect him those are the rules to obtain eternity at his side. have you ever heard the phrase "not of this world"? the reason we use this is because this world is not the world we view as important it is the world that you will spend an eternity in after. think of it like a test, to pass the test you have to choose the right answers. well in the Christian religion you can get a D and still pass, it isn't a very hard test.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

I'm aware that Christianity explicitly states that salvation isn't about good works, but I wouldn't be able to accept the idea that Gandhi is in hell right now.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

A majority of Christians believe that the only way into heaven is to put your sins on Jesus Christ and act as if you are prepared to "go and sin no more" (I forgot the verse of this...). You get to heaven because of your belief in Jesus and what He did for you.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

According to Christianity. inb4 atheists downvote me just because they think that Christianity isn't right even if my post describing Christianity was.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

What I find strange is that people regularly ask atheists "but what if God exists and is extra harsh on atheists?", but theists are never asked "but what if a different God exists and is extra hard on theists of 'wrong' religions?". Even though, for all we know, the two are equally as likely.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Believing in God because of fear of hell is just simply religion. religion is never what God wanted, he wants us to love him and each other. religion can be very helpful to getting to that point, but fear of hell is not what saves you.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

For the whole "God is the whole moral code" argument, if I otherwise perfectly fit his moral code except for the parts pertaining believing in him and I don't get into heaven, that puts not believing in him at an equal or higher level of transgression than the most grievous sin possible. I give up. I don't begrudge people their happiness, but if their devotion to god leads them to say someone else's happiness is wrong, I get annoyed.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Well think of it this way. Pretend God is a person, and he has an awesome house (just go with me here). Now he is throwing an awesome party at this house, and everyone can come! Yay! But, there are some conditions to this invitation. First of all, you can't be the bully type. Or if you were, you have to at least say you were sorry and try to change (very dubbed down, but it works). And finally, the single most important detail: in order to get into the party you have to want to go, and accept the invitation. If this God guy is trying to give you an invitation and you don't accept it, well, then you can't get into the party. If he's been inviting you for weeks and weeks before the big day but you refuse to listen to him, then well, it looks as if you didn't want to go. Why would this guy accept someone into his house who doesn't want to be with him? Haha long story, but that's really as basic as I could put it with it still having any type of meaning.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

I see your point, but it's not like I wouldn't mind heaven, it's that I have trouble believing in the qualifications.

by Anonymous 12 years ago

Favorite Quote I've found on my own: "Nobody knows exactly what after we die. If we did know, there wouldn't be so many different religions all saying different things and all are thinking they're right. To my mind, it doesn't matter which one of them you follow. Or ever if you walk alone and take your own path through life. As long as you live your life right and respect others beliefs, then you won't go far wrong."

by Anonymous 12 years ago