+644 It's annoying when pro-life people try to make pro-choice people feel bad by saying "you're lucky your parents were pro-life". Your parents decided to have you because that was their *choice*. People forget that choice is a two way street which can also lead women to choosing to keep the baby, amirite?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I know. People act like pro-choice is pro-abortion, as in "all babies must be aborted". That's totally not the point at all.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The philosophy of "all babies must be aborted" is what I usually call pro-death, which sometimes I jokingly say I am wary

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Mandatory abortions...anyone?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Why are you asking for their permission? d

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I'm asking for their support ;D troll

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Yeah, it's a big MISCONCEPTION ...c wut i did there :3

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Exactly! This frustrates me to no end. I wouldn't have CARED if my parents had an abortion (my parents aren't "pro-life" so this terminology falls flat). I'm sorry, but I just can't base my entire moral ehtic on feeling bad for something that didn't happen to people that don't exist.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

They don't exist, because they were murdered... it's like if I killed you and your parents said they don't feel bad, because of something that happened to, "people that don't exist."

by Anonymous 13 years ago

They were not "murdered". And the point is I would have existed; I have a life, friends, personality, hobbies, responsibilities. A foetus has none of those things yet, so it is completely different - do you feel bad for every sperm that doesn't make it, because only 1 out of several million can? Of course not. A sperm may have the potential to become a life, but it isn't one yet, and the same goes for a foetus; it's just parasitic cells for the meantime.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Is that how you define humans? If someone has no friends, personality, hobbies, responsibilities, then it would be okay to kill them? There's a huge difference between a sperm and something with a beating heart. And for you to think there isn't, just means you're also nothing more than a sperm and would be okay with being killed.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

First off, I don't think there's anyone without a personality. And no, there isn't - besides, if you think the beating heart is what matters, it's OK to abort it before it develops a circulatory system, right? Even if it IS a human, I'm still for allowing abortion. You have a right to self-defense - if someone is using your body in a way you don't consent to (and consent is ongoing), you can use whatever means to make them stop. Yes, even killing them. You don't need to justify it, you can just say "no". So if you think a foetus is a human, treat it like one - which means people are still allowed to "murder" it if they no longer give consent for it to use their body. It doesn't matter if they consented before. (This is the same as rape and organ donation; you can withdraw consent at any time, and it doesn't matter if it kills the other person. Your body, your rules.)

by Anonymous 13 years ago

It's spelled "fetus"

by Anonymous 5 years ago

You're an idiot.

by Anonymous 5 years ago

Yeah, one of my friends always tells me my girlfriend was almost aborted and I'm like, "Well, if she was she wouldn't exist."

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I feel like most people don't even want to exist at some point in their lives. My friend is very pro-choice. She says that adoption ISN'T always the best option. Her Dad was adopted, and while I don't know the specifics, it didn't end well. Sure, I may not have some of the friends I do now if they had been aborted, but I don't think all that pain is worth it, and it's actually pretty selfish to think it is. If she didn't exist I wouldn't have met her. NBD.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I hope this gets POTD

by Anonymous 13 years ago

It probably won't become POTD...

by Anonymous 13 years ago

What was that?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I understand that point of view. But in my mind it should not always be your will of it affects another life. You're sticking up for people's choices.. But what about the baby's choice?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

People argue that life begins at conception, even though there's no way to prove that, but it is sure citizenship begins at birth, therefore fetuses have no American rights because they are not citizens

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Anyone under the age of 18 has few to no rights in America either. Just saying.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Umm, yes you do. Those are lies parents and authority figures tell you. If you are arrested and under the age of 18 do you not get read your Miranda rights? Sure, you're rights are restricted to some extent, but you still have rights

by Anonymous 13 years ago

lol just because they are not citizens they don't deserve to live? i'm not talking about citizenship.. i'm talking about life.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I'm not saying they don't deserve to live. There are a lot of things people deserve, doesn't mean they obtain it. I'm saying since they are not citizens they have no rights, that includes the right to life. They have no guaranteed right to life.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

everyone has a right to live... what if you refuse to become a citizen of the united states? they can kick you out, but they can't kill you.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Fetuses are not citizens of anything. Just because you're not a citizen of the US doesn't mean you're not a citizen somewhere else. And for the record, people in other countries do kill people who break laws there that are citizens of the united states if that's their form of punishment. Just sayin'

by Anonymous 13 years ago

again, what does citizenship have to do with anything? humans designed citizenship.. before that was human life invaluable since no one was a citizen to anywhere?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Humans designed the "right to live" and "sanctity of life". You think a bear about to eat you is gonna give a crap about your life being sacred? Bullshit. The only reason humans think life is so wonderful and oh! everyone deserve to live from the teeniest cells to the oldest person! Hurrah! is because we're humans. The only thing we know is life, so we're permanently biased to treasure life and call it beautiful no matter what happens.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

But there is a major difference between the mind of a bear and that of a human: one has a code of ethics. The other builds atomic bombs, kills its own kind, and steals to satisfy its own greed. JK, but in all seriousness, people create things like laws and principles to preserve humanity as a whole. I'm sure widespread anarchy would really go a long way in keeping everyone secure. Just because humans design what's fair, what's not fair, the sanctity of life, etc. doesn't make them any less valid because they aren't found in nature. In fact, it makes them more valid in most (not all) cases.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

My point is life is only sacred to humans. That doesn't matter in cases of death, because that happens to all organisms. Morality is valid in human government, but becomes completely meaningless in the face of death.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Are you insane? The bear doesn't care about our lives as much as we don't care about it's... have you ever tried to take a bear's life? It'll fucking destroy you, that bear wants to live. Have you tried to take the bear's kid? That bear will rape you up and down. I'm assuming you've never heard of bear attacks? Are you joking me?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I'm pretty sure that was sparesecond's point....

by Anonymous 13 years ago

What was? That bears also value life?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

That a bear about to kill you isn't going to give a shit if you think life is sacred. I think you should reread her comments because I think you have the points she's trying to make confused

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The bear doesn't think YOUR life is sacred, just like YOU don't think a bear's life is sacred, however a bear DOES value it's own life and it's children's life as well.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I agree with you. Bears have no morals because they don't believe life to be sacred like humans do; only humans believe people "deserve" to live. That was my point.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Yes, but a bear isn't going to bring it's kid to you and ask you to kill it. As a matter of fact, if you tried to kill a bear's child, then it would kill you. What is the confusion here? It doesn't express it's feelings in the same way, but it obviously does express it, otherwise, it wouldn't mind when hunters kill their kid.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

What? I never compared a bear's act to abortion, all I said was that humans created the idea of the sanctity of life, when reality life is not sacred. I'm not saying animals/people don't have the instinct to protect their young, they certainly do. But humans have the ability to go against that instinct if they believe it's for the better.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The instinct to protect your young is their, because they value life, if they thought it was worthless, then they wouldn't protect it.... Where does the confusion lie?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Obviously they don't think life is worthless, seeing as they have an instinct for survival and instinct to protect their young. I'm just saying they don't think it's sacred because in dire situations some animals will eat their young. Also, some animals perform "abortions" if they realize they do not have the means to care for a child. They realize sometimes killing their children/fetus is okay if it's for their benefit. Besides, they only find their own species' lives to be of value. They wouldn't bat an eye killing a human, which shows that the sanctity of human life is restricted within our own species.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

You're all over the place, first you talk about bears, then random animals? Do bears eat their young? Do they abort? Also, humans kill other animals all the time, so I don't understand where you're trying to go with that....

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I used bears as an example of something that's not a human. I never expressed a point that was solely about bears. Where are you going with this? My entire point was that only humans think human life is sacred. We made up the sanctity of life. We're not sacred to bears, turtles, tigers, etc. Human life is declared sacred only by humans because we said so, therefore discrediting it a little. Of course, other animals declare this as well, but obviously it isn't true because we don't regard our steaks as a sacred life. Thus, humans made up the idea of sanctity of life.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Yes, but humans obviously are NOT the only ones who value life. Bears care about life, they may not care about HUMAN life, but they care about THEIR life. I don't get why this is so complicated. Bears care about bears, humans care about humans. Humans are not bears and bears are not humans, can you make that distinction? Because if not,then you should get out of here. Tigers care about tigers, turtles about turtles, etc. Tigers don't go to abortion clinics to kill their young. They protect IT.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

They protect it because it's their instinct, not because of morality, not because they believe in life's sanctity. Can //you// make //that// distinction? They don't protect it because they believe if they didn't they'd go to hell. They don't protect it because they believe all animals deserve to live. They don't protect it because they believe abortion is murder. They don't protect it because they believe a fetus is a viable member of their species. They protect it because it's their instinct to ward off predators trying to harm them. The trick here is that humans can act against their instinct. Obviously if you get pregnant you should give birth, but we can go against that. The only issue is morality, which bears and animals clearly do not have. We made up the idea that we should be moral to fetuses. Do you think if an animal had a miscarriage they would get depressed/sad like humans do? I don't. Animals don't have morals. They don't believe a fetus is sacred. I don't get what's confusing here either.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

So did you talk to a bear and out all this? I guess it makes sense though, bears have all these instincts and one of it is to protect random garbage? Thanks for clearing that up for me.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Are you here to tell me that bears have the mental capacity to have religion and morals? Wow, you sure showed me you spent a lot of time researching bears. If you think fetuses/children are random garbage then yes, that's one of their instincts.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Yes, bears have religion, because religion is the only reason people don't kill. I actually saw a bear the other day at church. I talked to it and it said that, they do in fact have morals and can speak English. He also told me that everyone is the same and expresses themselves in the same exact way. Because if I hit a kid to express my love and it's different from your definition of love, then it's not love at all.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Oh, how fascinating. You must have a lot of knowledge. Tell me again how you believe all life is sacred. Are you a vegan? Do you not own leather or fur? Humans only think human life is sacred. Even if bears thought bears' lives were sacred, they clearly don't feel the same about humans. Which brings me to my original point: human sanctity was invented by humans. Bears don't think humans' lives are sacred. Only humans believe human life is sacred. That is the only reason humans dislike abortion. Because they believe life is sacred. Bears do not believe human abortion is wrong. Bears will not protest outside of an abortion clinic. Only humans care about that. Even if I agreed with you and said bears believe their cubs' lives are sacred, they clearly don't believe that way for humans. Only humans care about humans. Only humans believe humans are sacred. Humans want life for humans, and called it sacred to keep them alive. I can't possibly be more clear than that.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I've said this a hundred times. I never said bears thought human lives are sacred, they think their own life is and their cubs. Just like humans don't think a bears life is sacred. What are you not getting?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I think bears believe their cubs' lives are important, maybe not sacred, but either way that's pretty common knowledge. They have an instinct to protect their young. Maybe I should rephrase: the sanctity of a human fetus is something humans made up. It's certainly sacred to humans, but it's not actually sacred in the sense that it's universally sacred and all organisms believe it to be.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Well, you should have said that in the first place. Also, protection of the young is an instinct for most humans, this is why we consider it to be a sacred thing. Bears also have this instinct. We might not display it in the same way, because we're two completely different organisms, but it's essentially the same concept. Just like someone of a different race might not think life is sacred, but they would instinctively protect their young. So this sanctity comes from our instinct and our ability to rationalize. Other animals might not have this ability to rationalize, but they do have the basic instinct to protect their young. Given, this isn't true to all animals, it can be applied to most.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The reason I brought in the bear was to say another organism won't think you're sacred even though you think you're sacred. And that just proves you're not truly sacred. I should have said humans made up human sanctity. In abortion arguments, people should instead say it's natural to protect our young and carry it to term, rather than saying it's sacred, because it honestly isn't. Our young are extremely important to us, and it's natural for us to protect it, but we aren't sacred. We just think we are.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Bears don't think another organism is sacred, because they don't... think. If they were able to rationalize, then they would eventually reach the same conclusion, because it comes from this instinct. Anyway, if sanctity is just a man made term, then why can't we be it? I mean we made it up to describe ourselves. It's like if I made up a new word to describe myself and you tell me that I'm not it. Who are you to tell me that? If someone sees blue and you see red, you can't tell them what they are seeing is wrong, YOU could be wrong. Perception is reality and if someone perceives that their life is sacred, then that's their reality. You can't expect other people's reality to match yours. It's impossible

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Even if bears could think they wouldn't think we're sacred. We don't think they're sacred and we can think. It doesn't matter what the word is. What I'm saying is we're not universally important, which is what sacred basically means. Saying we're universally important, overpowering, etc. is a fallacy. Sacred is just a word but it has a meaning.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Wtaf? I never said bears would think we're sacred. If they rationalized they would think, they were sacred.... What if we are though, how do you know for sure that we're not? Do you have any proof that we're not? And abortion doesn't necessarily have to be associated with the sanctity of life, a lot of people don't perform it, because it's a frigging life. That's where a lot of argument comes in, because how do you define life? I define it as on the 18th - 21st day when they form a heart and it starts beating. Some people define it as after it's formed all it's organs and it's ready to come out. A psychopathic killer might define life as starting when you're over 50 and murder a bunch of people. Everyone has their own definition of anything and everything.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

We're not universally important to every single creature on earth. That's kind of obvious. I know it's not all about sanctity, I was just pointing out one of the strongest aspects of the argument. I believe life starts as soon as the mother produces the egg or the father produces the sperm. A lot of people say life starts at conception but the sperm and egg were alive. They had to be alive to actually make the fetus. At no point were the egg/sperm dead and resurrected to make a fetus. I just think that's the most scientifically accurate. Just because someone has their own opinion doesn't mean they're always right. Some people thought the sun revolved around the earth, but just because they have their own way of perception doesn't mean they're correct. In a situation like that, people have the power to tell them they're wrong.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The US government can't kick you out because you refuse to become a citizen. I'm Canadian, I live in the States, and I will not become a citizen because I see no point in it, for I'm planning on moving back north. The US government cannot deport me for that.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

What does that have to do with anything?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Ask Pug, she was the one who said that the US government can kick you out for refusing to be a citizen.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

No shit you're going to side with this. You're probably Christian.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

lolwut Why would she side with this if she's Christian?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

lol okay? people have to be Christian to be against abortion?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Yes. The people that are pro-life (very stupid in my opinion) are mainly Christians.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

you're giving a bad rep for pro-choicer's.. luckily i'm not ignorant to think they're all like you. have respect for others and they will have respect for you.. all i did was voice what i think and you're calling me stupid for being pro-life. since you're pro-choice shouldn't i have the choice to what opinion i have?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The thing about pro-life that people don't agree with is that you guys are trying to make the decision about pregnancy for EVERYONE, not just yourselves because of what? Your morals? What about MY morals? Why should we have laws that please your ideology and not mine instead of having something that is a compromise? You're trying to say "hey lady, I don't care how old you are, how financially stable you are, what race you are, how many kids you already have, or how high your risk of death may be because of a pregnancy. If you get pregnant you're GOING to have a baby, no if, ands, or buts about it!" If you don't ever want to have an abortion, kudos to you, but not everyone is you. You have no right to make that decision for anybody else except for yourself SO STOP TRYING. There's a reason abortion was legalized in the first place. It's not going anywhere, k? :)

by Anonymous 13 years ago

/facepalm. You just proved your ignorance. AND the point of this post: you think i'm trying to control pregnancies everywhere. thats the equivalent of me saying you want to kill babies everywhere. i'm not pro-life so i can control people, i'm pro-life because i am against murder. how would you like it if i said "YOURE JUST TRYING TO KILL ALL THE BABIES! WELL STOP BECAUSE ITS NOT GOING ANYWHERE KAY??" yeah no.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Lol, like someone said earlier pro-life and pro-abortion are not the same thing, so that argument doesn't work. Making abortions illegal would force women to have babies they don't want, therefore it is controlling. Nice try though!

by Anonymous 13 years ago

well having an abortion is not giving a baby a chance to live, therefore murder. Nice try though!

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Definition of murder: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. It's not a baby nor a human being, it's an embryo or fetus, therefore it's not murder

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Embryo and fetus are just names for unborn human beings, just like baby is the name for a newborn human being, child is the name for a young human being and adult is the name for a grown up human being.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Embryo and fetus are names for unborn mammals, not just human beings.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Actually, abortion isn't murder. The baby is not classified as a human yet, thus it cannot be murder. If life began at conception, then we'd all be able to legally drink at 20 years old, and 3 months, since we're all in the womb for 9 months (unless the baby is pre-mature.). You're probably one of those bible thumpers and hand out the bible on the street.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Pro-choice*

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The reason why abortion was legalized in the frist place was for rape victims and incest victims... I believe a woman has the right to do what she wants with her body, but if she is going to lay down and have unprotect sex then she should have to deal with the concequences or do the morning after pill..

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Sometimes contraception doesn't work.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

In no way do I agree with using abortion as a form of birth control, but what about the people who do take the precautions to not get pregnant because they don't want a kid and they end up pregnant. No contraceptive is 100% and accidents do happen. A couple who were friends of my family had that happen to them, and yeah, I believe she should be able to have the abortion since she didn't want a kid. What we really need to do is better educate young men and women about sex so that they make smarter choices about sex and if they do end up pregnant that can say it wasn't because they weren't being safe

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Okay.. But the plan B pill works in a similar way to birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. I totally agree with you about we need to educate young men and women better then maybe we won't see as much teenage pregnancy as we do now.. It would probably lower the amount but the thing is teenagers need to realize that having a baby is a huge responiblity.. If they are going to lay down and have unprotected sex then they should have to deal with the concequences. Just sayin or give it up for adoption because I am sure their is someone out there that would be happy to give that child a happy home.. But then again it there life they have that right to choose whether to have an abortion or not.. But it shouldnt happen all the time once or twice is fine but more then that you need to get fixed or stop having sex!!

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Yeah I totally agree. If you're getting pregnant so often that you're having multiple abortions a year or whatever you should probably reevaluate your life and your life choices. Getting an abortion once or twice is probably because you made an honest mistake, any more than that and you should probably get your shit together because you're obviously doing something wrong haha

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I like that comment. My exact views on aboriton.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I'm ignorant? You're ignorant. I told you what I thought and you slam me for my opinions? wtf. I was just helping you out. Hopefully sooner enough you'll have enough strength to leave this Christian cult.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

none of my comments reflected an sign of my christian belief. i never brought God into the conversation. you assuming i just want to control everybody is 'slamming' me for my opinions actually. i was just going off what you wrote. doesn't feel to good eh? next time respect others and don't just assume. God bless!

by Anonymous 13 years ago

You just don't get it do you. Without abortions, will come more violence than ever (something that the Christians are aiming for). What would you rather have? A women continuously beating and hurting herself and the fetus or a professional trained doctor quickly taking the fetus out (causing no pain for the mother or fetus). "No pain, no game" is probably the most inspirational quote for Christians.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

oh my goodness, i thought we settled this but you just want to keep at it. you think i'm a horrible person that wants to control people. you have even accused me of being in a cult. I DO NOT APROVE OF ABORTIONS. can you not respect that? and about christianity.. you're very judgmental. have you even talked to any christian as a person? i know some can be very un-understanding. but the bible says to love. thats what christians are here for. i'm turing this argument into that because you are disrespecting my beliefs and i'm NOT okay with that. i respect whatever views you have on abortion, but do not accuse me of things.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The fetus isn't a sentient life form. It has no opinion and gets no choice. When you wash your hands, do you think about whether or not the bacteria on your hands want to live? Somehow I doubt that.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

i won't compare a baby to bacteria.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

What if bacteria was supposed to grow into babies but we didn't know because humans don't give bacteria a friendly environment to grow? BABY KILLER.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

have you ever taken a science class? thats the dumbest thing i have heard. besides that point, Human life is not comparable to any animal or bacteria. but if you view your life as invaluable as bacteria, go for it.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Maybe I do! BRB GOING FOR BACTERIA.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I was on your side until that comment. If you really like life so much, shouldn't animals get that right too?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

animals are not humans. nor is bacteria. a fetus is a developing human.. and so are we. we develop more and more each day.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I agree, but you might wanna be careful with wording. It sounded like you don't care about animals. Animals have feelings too. Have you ever owned a dog? Animal life is valuable too.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

i love animals, i cried for weeks when my cat died. however that experience is incomparable to the grief i had when my dad died.. humans > animals. thats all i meant.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

You shouldn't respect an organism just because of its DNA. I agree that humans are superior to cats, but if intelligent aliens came to Earth, would you disrespect them just because they weren't homo sapiens? It's not as simple as "Human DNA = important." A cat's life should still be more important than a fetus's. A fetus doesn't have feelings, and a cat does. We kill animals for our own convenience all the time regardless of how they feel about dying, but a fetus who has no feelings or thoughts should be spared?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

how do you know it has no feelings or thoughts? i find it sad that you would rather kill a fetus (baby) than a cat. why are you assuming i disrespect anything thats not a homo sapien? i still have respect for animals, i just value human life above it.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

In order to be considered sentient, something must have a consciousness. In order to have a consciousness, by definition you must be conscious at some point. A fetus hasn't. It has nothing to think about. It has nothing to interact with. It can't possibly have feelings or thoughts. A cat does. I find it sad that you would rather kill a sentient life form than a potential human. I'm not saying you disrespect non-humans. I'm just pointing out that you value a non-sentient life form more than a sentient one, just because it is technically human.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

i believe thats when our consciousness grows. i do think fetus' have feelings and thoughts. it has an attachment to the mother and father from birth. thats why i value it. even if i did it, it would have became a human. and i would never stop someone from becoming something.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Your beliefs have no scientific evidence, and seem very unlikely. If you want to believe it, you can act on it, but there's no scientific evidence or logic to say it should be the law. You would never stop something from becoming human, and that's your choice. Other women would stop something from becoming human if they had to, and that's their choice.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Of course you cried more when your dad died, he was your dad. However, what would you find sadder, your cat dying or some random person you've never met before dying?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Whereas other animals don't age? ._.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

It's proven that we are ANIMALS as well, dumb ass. You know nothing about science. We're just able to hold in more. "Bible says to love". How many atrocities did god cause? I can name plenty. The bible shows gods evilness and his murders. The bible does NOT love.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

no need for name calling. respect me, and i'll respect you i highly doubt you have read the entire bible. most christians have not (i have actually). the old testament IS very brutal. however, in the new testament Jesus is all about love and forgiving. i still struggle with it, but the bible is a great example about love.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I can't name one reason humans are above or better than animals in any way. Not one. Humans are perfectly able to be compared with animals, it's just that humans are so self-righteous they don't want to be "degraded" or whatever. We're all animals and nothing more.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

just though i might add to this conversation, some animals have been shown to have "abortions" (i'm not sure what to call it, because they don't use doctors or wire hangers)

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Rabbits, armadillos, sheep, gazelles, mice, geladas (a relative of the baboon), and domestic horses, to name a few.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

thanks, i heard some dogs, too, but i'm not too sure.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Sorry, no respect for a Christian (who is pro-life lolwut!). You've already ruined my respect for you anyway. Especially with your support of violence. I've read the whole bible before so don't make up things. I keep one right beside my night table and mock it in my dreams. I know the whole bible by heart. Proves that you need to learn your facts a little bit more.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

If you don't respect a Christian for her views, you are as much as a bigot as a Christian who rejects an atheist viewpoint.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

God's atrocities? God didn't do shit. We as flawed humans caused atrocities through naive interpretation of his divine love. I'm no more religious than the next guy but I hate when a church leader from hundreds of years ago goes crazy and kills a bunch of homosexuals and people like you say 'god killed hundreds of homosexuals' his word stated that though homosexuality is to be disagreed with all humans are to be loved and cherished. You can't anthropomorphize god.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I've never met anyone who has interpreted the Bible that way. Why did you come to that conclusion? I'm curious.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Bacteria is actually essential for human life to thrive. So it's not invaluable.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I don't care how much hate I get for this, but I agree with you. Comparing a fetus to bacteria is lowering the value of human life

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Human life is of the same value of a dog. You don't get to determine whose life is worth more.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

What makes human life worth more than that of a fetus then?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I never said it was. If their lives are of the same worth, then the fetus' life is not more important than the mothers either. Therefore, both parties have equal say. However, the fetus cannot speak and we cannot put words in its mouth. The only option left is the mother's voice; listen to it.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

To be asserting that the life of a fetus is equivalent to the life of a human and then continuing to be pro-choice seems bizarre. Whether or not you live or die should be completely your choice. If you're too young to make that choice, or, as it may be, not capable of making any choices, it shouldn't be given to somebody else without your permissions, as in some cases of euthanasia. Assuming the mother's life is threatened by the birth, I support abortion because a conscious mind wins out against an unconscious one, but otherwise I don't see why abortion should be a viable option when adoption gives that choice just as well. It's not that I don't think people should be able to do what they want with their bodies, but rather that at that point it seems almost unfair to consider the fetus an extension of the body,

by Anonymous 13 years ago

All lives are equal. However, what I'm not saying is all voices are equal. If you cannot by any means make a choice regarding your life, it should be given to your caretaker/family. If a child was comatose from birth, I would not believe it to be murder if he was taken off life support, for example. Why is it unfair to consider it an extension? It's attached to the mother. It cannot live whatsoever without it. Sure, it eventually becomes a human life, but at the moment of the abortion, it's nothing more than a production of the mother's body. I do not owe a fetus anything. I don't owe it the gift of life. I don't owe it birth. Having sex does not mean a person's suddenly in debt that needs to be payed by giving birth.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I don't believe a comatose child and a fetus to be equivalent because the percentage of births where a fetus is developmentally retarded or comatose from birth isn't particularly significant. Of course you're correct about not owing the fetus anything, but it's not a matter of owing it something. I don't think pro-life or pro-choice is a position that can be defended by anything other than opinion, but to me 9 months, the only sacrifice that giving birth to a baby requires, is certainly worth the life of a fetus or a human being or a cat, and since the fetus will most likely eventually have a voice, I don't see why we shouldn't wait to give it one.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I always understand where pro-lifers are coming from, but the whole basis is in fact opinion. I just personally do not hold a fetus to any emotional significance. I think it's really unimportant. I don't think the death of a fetus is something immoral, and I don't think it's wrong. That being said, no, abortion gives a baby no choice, so the gov't has to choose between the choice of the mother or the fetus. But the difference is pro-lifers always want the fetus to be born (except in cases of death, rape, etc) but pro-choicers think it's up to the mother to decide for herself. In my opinion that's just more fair.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I'm just going to try to more clearly outline my position, because I think I failed. Firstly, I believe that the life of a fetus is worth slightly less than that of a human being. If I was asked to pick between saving one or the other, I would never choose the fetus. However, I do think that the life of a fetus is worth more than nine months of a human's life. Now, to me, if all babies that are not concieved of rape or cases of death are born, that means that all mothers will end up carrying babies for 9 months. If we give all mothers the choice, many will be born, and several will die in accordance with the mother's wishes. To me, the life of a fetus is worth more than those 9 months, and so I see that as more fair. But I completely understand where you're coming from, because I think both ways have aspects of fairness and unfairness.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Right, but to think of it in perspective, 9 months of pregnancy is only bad if it's forced. Another thing is, who decided that the fetus wanted to live? Fetuses don't have desires, they're just there. Murder is wrong because the victim obviously wanted to live. Fetuses don't want anything. They're in a state of nothingness, basically, and moving them into a state of death isn't something that can be compared to murder.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

It's true that they don't want to live, but to say it's all right to strip them of a choice they can't yet make for that reason seems bizarre. I wouldn't say it is murder to abort, but I would certainly compare the two, although murder is definitely far worse.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

But once they're born, they're obviously going to choose life. You can't make a choice on abortion once you're already born.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

So you believe that once born, all humans will choose life over death? Why should we give the choice to the mother when it seems certain as soon as the fetus/extension is capable it will choose life?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Because its unfair for her to give birth to a child she wishes were dead.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Hmm. I'd have to agree with you there. Somehow, though, I find it more unfair for a life to be terminated because the mother wants the child to be dead.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

But they can't comprehend life and don't have thoughts, whereas the mother can and will go through every excruciating step of giving birth. The fetus will feel nothing.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Only because it isn't given the chance to grow.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Then, will being given a chance to grow make death somehow less bad?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Yes, I think being given a chance to experience life is very important, even though it may seem meaningless. To me, being able to experience life and find your own meaning and try to obtain it is extremely important.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

But babies are unable to make decisions... This argument has never made any sense to me. The baby is incapable of deciding weather or not it wants to live, so it's up to the parents.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

So instead of allowing them to live to grow older to make a decision, we just murder them, hoping that, that's what they would have wanted? Is that the logic there? If they're not dead, they can choose to end their life, on their accord. If they are, they can't choose to live.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Well, first of all suicide is also illegal, and I feel it hurts a lot more people than abortion. Fetus's don't have friends, teachers, people who talk to them. I'm not saying that the parents make the decision based on what the child might want, that's insane. Fetus's don't have opinions. I'm saying they need to make the choice that's best for the child. My friend's father was adopted, and she said it ended very badly because the adopted parents really shouldn't have adopted. Then there are poor and abused children that could have been saved from all that pain. I've been going through depression this year, and I can't tell you how much I've wanted to be dead. In fact, I would rather die then go through the worst of it again. Sometimes what's best for a person is to never be born.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

It's not up to you or anyone else to say what's worth living for. I used to live with a druggie and then adopted to abusive parents. It's rough, but I'm dealing with it just fine. Sometimes the people that value life the most are people who have went through a ton of shit. The people who are driven are the ones who have seen the worst of this planet. If only fit parents raised children, then this world would be so much worse than it is.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

From what I gather, it's your will that abortion be illegal. That affects another life. If it's between taking the choice away from the mother and taking the choice away from the fetus, I'd rather take the choice away from the one that cannot think and make choices.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

True!! And it's like they forgot that almost all married couples, especially in the past, actually want a baby, and were probably waiting for one, mainly if it was their first child. The reason my parents didn't abort me isn't because they're prolife, but it was their choice to get me, and their choice to keep me.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I would have preferred to be aborted if my parents only kept me because they were pro-life, and I was unwanted.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

EXACTLY. The key word in the term "pro-choice" is "choice." Both my parents are pro-choice, and they made the choice to have a kid. Some people do, some don't. And no one likes abortion (or, in other words, no one wants women to get into a situation in which abortion would be a legitimate option), it's just a matter of whether or women should have the option have having one. I personally believe that they should, but, as the term "pro-choice" suggests, it's up to the mother. Either way, the vast majority of pregancies don't end in abortions. If all pro-choice people were pro-abortion, I think there would be quite a few more abortions taking place.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Oh, by the way, by "I personally believe that they should," I meant that women should have the option to have an abortion, not that they should get an abortion. That was sort of awkwardly worded.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

My parents didn't choose to have me. I was accident!

by Anonymous 13 years ago

They chose to keep you!

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Because they couldn't afford an abortion. Those are like $600. Psh. College kids can't afford that. They just need a hanger.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

so you wouldn't mind, if say, they could afford it and decided to abort you?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

No I wouldn't, because I wouldn't be alive to have a thought process at all. Neither would myself in the form of a fetus. I know my mom doesn't want me, she tells me all the time, I'm prettys ure she did want one, but my dad talked her out of it. Because my dad's adopted, so he knows of that choice more than some people do.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Plus, I wouldn't want to be brought into this world unwanted, knowing my parents didn't want me.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Well you are saying right now that you're not wanted.. So you wouldint mind if your mom would kill you right now? After all you would have no thoughts after death

by Anonymous 13 years ago

That's completely different. I'm a human being now. I would mind while I was being killed, considering I now have a thought process, unlike a fetus in the womb before 19 weeks (Most places don't do them after that because that's when the fetus starts to feel pain. The only times they will do it is if there's serious medical problems with the mom or the baby.). I'm an athiest, but I'm not the typical one that does it just to be cool, so yes, I do believe that there's no thought after death. I believe in reincarnation. Furthermore, my mom wouldn't take the time out of her "busy schedule" to kill me. She doesn't even take the time to feed me.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The typical atheist does it to be cool? Yeah, because God and Christ are totally lame, let's all go and smoke reefer and swear at cops when they turn their backs.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

what?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Yeah, a lot of kids these days are becoming atheists just because it's cool.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

No they're not.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

A lot of kids are just *saying* that then. Teens are stupid these days. If their friend becomes an athiest, then they will too just to fit in.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

It's a weak argument anyway, it's not as though being aborted would have upset me that much. "Oh damn, now I'll never get to play the xylophone or parallel park, I'm certainly aware of what I am missing, what with how sentient I am, I'll bet that had I not been aborted, I'd have accomplished all sorts of things as soon as I found out what 'accomplish' and 'things' meant."

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Well why is murder against the law?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I find it immature how amirite as a whole is rejecting the pro-life viewpoint that Pug presents. What about the baby? I find it morally wrong for a mother to voluntarily kill her potential offspring. She presents a compelling argument that people should be more open to; that the fetus has no choice on whether she lives or not. However, I am pro-choice because I find it even more morally wrong for a government to restrict the right's a mother has to her body. Killing a fetus is not something a casual decision a mother makes, and it could be one if the largest decisions in a female's life on whether or not to have an abortion. But, I believe a mother should possess the right to make a decision and not relinquish that right to a bunch of old farts sitting in Congress.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

"Pro life" and "Pro choice" are horrible names for both sides. It's not about whether you support people's rights to make choices, or rights to live, it's about whether or not you think disposing of a mass of cells that may or may not be a human one day is ethical.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

you're lucky your parents were pro-life troll

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I really don't understand the point of the whole abortion argument because it's totally situational. If a mother and the baby would die anyway if the pregnancy was continued then nobody in their right mind would say don't get an abortion. Whatever the circumstances though abortion should always be legal because even if it isn't people will still get abortions, the only difference is that it'll be done by an amateur with a dirty coat hanger which could put the life of the mother in danger which is something which should be avoided.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Oh heck yeah! It's been a while since we had an abortion post. Flamewars are fantastic reading material. Keep up the good work mods y

by Anonymous 13 years ago

>post about abortions >120+ comments yup, flame war

by Anonymous 13 years ago

"all babies want to get borned" anyone, anyone??

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Aweyeah Juno. I do disagree however. :)

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I believe I read some sort of news article months ago that showed the crime rate before and after abortions were outlawed. Apparently with abortion outlawed, the crime rate had increased 30 percent or somethin' like that. Also, even if abortion somehow does get outlawed one day, you're totally forgetting backyard abortions. Sure, while you may stop a future child when you outlaw abortion, you're also opening up the door for a type of abortion that can kill the mother and the child in a more painful way.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

That was a statistic discovered by the writers of Freakonomics. Very interesting book and very entertaining. The guys are real geniuses.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

The mothers should always have a choice whether to carry a baby or not, it seems harsh to make a law about it. Sometimes it wouldn't be fair on the baby to bring it into the world if the mother was in a bad situation, and sometimes women may not feel ready to carry a baby. It depends on the individual.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

This is a very touchy aubject. I dont even know what/if i identify with any of these terms. I would NEVER have an abortion, nd i would be disappointed if any friend or relative got one, but i also believe its a persons choice to do what they want with their body.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

I'm pro-life. That's my opinion. But I would NEVER put someone down for any decision they make. that's their business not mine.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

If it's their decision, wouldn't that make you pro choice? Just someone who's pro choice and doesn't want an abortion?

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Yet, the baby's choice to live is taken away.

by Anonymous 13 years ago

Where did we, as a society, go wrong when we decided that murdering an unborn child should be a choice at all?

by Anonymous 5 years ago

Where did we, as a society, go wrong when we decided that murdering an unborn child should be a choice at all?

by Anonymous 5 years ago