It's annoying when pro-life people try to make pro-choice people feel bad by saying "you're lucky your parents were pro-life". Your parents decided to have you because that was their choice. People forget that choice is a two way street which can also lead women to choosing to keep the baby, amirite?
I know. People act like pro-choice is pro-abortion, as in "all babies must be aborted". That's totally not the point at all.
Yeah, it's a big MISCONCEPTION
...c wut i did there :3
The philosophy of "all babies must be aborted" is what I usually call pro-death, which sometimes I jokingly say I am
Why are you asking for their permission?
I'm asking for their support ;D
Exactly! This frustrates me to no end. I wouldn't have CARED if my parents had an abortion (my parents aren't "pro-life" so this terminology falls flat). I'm sorry, but I just can't base my entire moral ehtic on feeling bad for something that didn't happen to people that don't exist.
You're an idiot.
They don't exist, because they were murdered... it's like if I killed you and your parents said they don't feel bad, because of something that happened to, "people that don't exist."
They were not "murdered". And the point is I would have existed; I have a life, friends, personality, hobbies, responsibilities. A foetus has none of those things yet, so it is completely different - do you feel bad for every sperm that doesn't make it, because only 1 out of several million can? Of course not. A sperm may have the potential to become a life, but it isn't one yet, and the same goes for a foetus; it's just parasitic cells for the meantime.
Is that how you define humans? If someone has no friends, personality, hobbies, responsibilities, then it would be okay to kill them? There's a huge difference between a sperm and something with a beating heart. And for you to think there isn't, just means you're also nothing more than a sperm and would be okay with being killed.
First off, I don't think there's anyone without a personality. And no, there isn't - besides, if you think the beating heart is what matters, it's OK to abort it before it develops a circulatory system, right?
Even if it IS a human, I'm still for allowing abortion. You have a right to self-defense - if someone is using your body in a way you don't consent to (and consent is ongoing), you can use whatever means to make them stop. Yes, even killing them. You don't need to justify it, you can just say "no". So if you think a foetus is a human, treat it like one - which means people are still allowed to "murder" it if they no longer give consent for it to use their body. It doesn't matter if they consented before. (This is the same as rape and organ donation; you can withdraw consent at any time, and it doesn't matter if it kills the other person. Your body, your rules.)
It's spelled "fetus"
I think you got the letters mixed up...
He was talking about this post, not your comments
I would have preferred to be aborted if my parents only kept me because they were pro-life, and I was unwanted.
Yeah, one of my friends always tells me my girlfriend was almost aborted and I'm like, "Well, if she was she wouldn't exist."
I feel like most people don't even want to exist at some point in their lives.
My friend is very pro-choice. She says that adoption ISN'T always the best option. Her Dad was adopted, and while I don't know the specifics, it didn't end well.
Sure, I may not have some of the friends I do now if they had been aborted, but I don't think all that pain is worth it, and it's actually pretty selfish to think it is.
If she didn't exist I wouldn't have met her. NBD.
True!! And it's like they forgot that almost all married couples, especially in the past, actually want a baby, and were probably waiting for one, mainly if it was their first child. The reason my parents didn't abort me isn't because they're prolife, but it was their choice to get me, and their choice to keep me.
I hope this gets POTD
It probably won't become POTD...
What was that?
EXACTLY. The key word in the term "pro-choice" is "choice." Both my parents are pro-choice, and they made the choice to have a kid. Some people do, some don't. And no one likes abortion (or, in other words, no one wants women to get into a situation in which abortion would be a legitimate option), it's just a matter of whether or women should have the option have having one. I personally believe that they should, but, as the term "pro-choice" suggests, it's up to the mother. Either way, the vast majority of pregancies don't end in abortions. If all pro-choice people were pro-abortion, I think there would be quite a few more abortions taking place.
Oh, by the way, by "I personally believe that they should," I meant that women should have the option to have an abortion, not that they should get an abortion. That was sort of awkwardly worded.
It's a weak argument anyway, it's not as though being aborted would have upset me that much. "Oh damn, now I'll never get to play the xylophone or parallel park, I'm certainly aware of what I am missing, what with how sentient I am, I'll bet that had I not been aborted, I'd have accomplished all sorts of things as soon as I found out what 'accomplish' and 'things' meant."
I find it immature how amirite as a whole is rejecting the pro-life viewpoint that Pug presents. What about the baby? I find it morally wrong for a mother to voluntarily kill her potential offspring. She presents a compelling argument that people should be more open to; that the fetus has no choice on whether she lives or not. However, I am pro-choice because I find it even more morally wrong for a government to restrict the right's a mother has to her body. Killing a fetus is not something a casual decision a mother makes, and it could be one if the largest decisions in a female's life on whether or not to have an abortion. But, I believe a mother should possess the right to make a decision and not relinquish that right to a bunch of old farts sitting in Congress.
I really don't understand the point of the whole abortion argument because it's totally situational. If a mother and the baby would die anyway if the pregnancy was continued then nobody in their right mind would say don't get an abortion. Whatever the circumstances though abortion should always be legal because even if it isn't people will still get abortions, the only difference is that it'll be done by an amateur with a dirty coat hanger which could put the life of the mother in danger which is something which should be avoided.
Oh heck yeah! It's been a while since we had an abortion post. Flamewars are fantastic reading material. Keep up the good work mods
I do enjoy the flame war. The comments can be entertaining.
"all babies want to get borned"
Aweyeah Juno. I do disagree however. :)
"Pro life" and "Pro choice" are horrible names for both sides. It's not about whether you support people's rights to make choices, or rights to live, it's about whether or not you think disposing of a mass of cells that may or may not be a human one day is ethical.
yup, flame war
I believe I read some sort of news article months ago that showed the crime rate before and after abortions were outlawed.
Apparently with abortion outlawed, the crime rate had increased 30 percent or somethin' like that.
Also, even if abortion somehow does get outlawed one day, you're totally forgetting backyard abortions.
Sure, while you may stop a future child when you outlaw abortion, you're also opening up the door for a type of abortion that can kill the mother and the child in a more painful way.
That was a statistic discovered by the writers of Freakonomics. Very interesting book and very entertaining. The guys are real geniuses.
The mothers should always have a choice whether to carry a baby or not, it seems harsh to make a law about it. Sometimes it wouldn't be fair on the baby to bring it into the world if the mother was in a bad situation, and sometimes women may not feel ready to carry a baby. It depends on the individual.
Well why is murder against the law?
Yet, the baby's choice to live is taken away.
My parents didn't choose to have me. I was accident!
They chose to keep you!
Because they couldn't afford an abortion. Those are like $600. Psh. College kids can't afford that. They just need a hanger.
so you wouldn't mind, if say, they could afford it and decided to abort you?
No I wouldn't, because I wouldn't be alive to have a thought process at all. Neither would myself in the form of a fetus. I know my mom doesn't want me, she tells me all the time, I'm prettys ure she did want one, but my dad talked her out of it. Because my dad's adopted, so he knows of that choice more than some people do.
Plus, I wouldn't want to be brought into this world unwanted, knowing my parents didn't want me.
Well you are saying right now that you're not wanted.. So you wouldint mind if your mom would kill you right now? After all you would have no thoughts after death
That's completely different. I'm a human being now. I would mind while I was being killed, considering I now have a thought process, unlike a fetus in the womb before 19 weeks (Most places don't do them after that because that's when the fetus starts to feel pain. The only times they will do it is if there's serious medical problems with the mom or the baby.). I'm an athiest, but I'm not the typical one that does it just to be cool, so yes, I do believe that there's no thought after death. I believe in reincarnation. Furthermore, my mom wouldn't take the time out of her "busy schedule" to kill me. She doesn't even take the time to feed me.
The typical atheist does it to be cool?
Yeah, because God and Christ are totally lame, let's all go and smoke reefer and swear at cops when they turn their backs.
Yeah, a lot of kids these days are becoming atheists just because it's cool.
No they're not.
A lot of kids are just saying that then. Teens are stupid these days. If their friend becomes an athiest, then they will too just to fit in.
This is a very touchy aubject.
I dont even know what/if i identify with any of these terms. I would NEVER have an abortion, nd i would be disappointed if any friend or relative got one, but i also believe its a persons choice to do what they want with their body.
I'm pro-life. That's my opinion. But I would NEVER put someone down for any decision they make. that's their business not mine.
If it's their decision, wouldn't that make you pro choice? Just someone who's pro choice and doesn't want an abortion?
Where did we, as a society, go wrong when we decided that murdering an unborn child should be a choice at all?
Where did we, as a society, go wrong when we decided that murdering an unborn child should be a choice at all?
you're lucky your parents were pro-life
I understand that point of view. But in my mind it should not always be your will of it affects another life.
You're sticking up for people's choices.. But what about the baby's choice?
People argue that life begins at conception, even though there's no way to prove that, but it is sure citizenship begins at birth, therefore fetuses have no American rights because they are not citizens
lol just because they are not citizens they don't deserve to live? i'm not talking about citizenship.. i'm talking about life.
I'm not saying they don't deserve to live. There are a lot of things people deserve, doesn't mean they obtain it. I'm saying since they are not citizens they have no rights, that includes the right to life. They have no guaranteed right to life.
everyone has a right to live... what if you refuse to become a citizen of the united states? they can kick you out, but they can't kill you.
Fetuses are not citizens of anything. Just because you're not a citizen of the US doesn't mean you're not a citizen somewhere else. And for the record, people in other countries do kill people who break laws there that are citizens of the united states if that's their form of punishment. Just sayin'
again, what does citizenship have to do with anything? humans designed citizenship.. before that was human life invaluable since no one was a citizen to anywhere?
Humans designed the "right to live" and "sanctity of life".
You think a bear about to eat you is gonna give a crap about your life being sacred? Bullshit.
The only reason humans think life is so wonderful and oh! everyone deserve to live from the teeniest cells to the oldest person! Hurrah! is because we're humans. The only thing we know is life, so we're permanently biased to treasure life and call it beautiful no matter what happens.
But there is a major difference between the mind of a bear and that of a human: one has a code of ethics. The other builds atomic bombs, kills its own kind, and steals to satisfy its own greed. JK, but in all seriousness, people create things like laws and principles to preserve humanity as a whole. I'm sure widespread anarchy would really go a long way in keeping everyone secure. Just because humans design what's fair, what's not fair, the sanctity of life, etc. doesn't make them any less valid because they aren't found in nature. In fact, it makes them more valid in most (not all) cases.
My point is life is only sacred to humans. That doesn't matter in cases of death, because that happens to all organisms. Morality is valid in human government, but becomes completely meaningless in the face of death.
Are you insane? The bear doesn't care about our lives as much as we don't care about it's... have you ever tried to take a bear's life? It'll fucking destroy you, that bear wants to live. Have you tried to take the bear's kid? That bear will rape you up and down. I'm assuming you've never heard of bear attacks? Are you joking me?
I'm pretty sure that was sparesecond's point....
What was? That bears also value life?
That a bear about to kill you isn't going to give a shit if you think life is sacred. I think you should reread her comments because I think you have the points she's trying to make confused
The bear doesn't think YOUR life is sacred, just like YOU don't think a bear's life is sacred, however a bear DOES value it's own life and it's children's life as well.
I agree with you. Bears have no morals because they don't believe life to be sacred like humans do; only humans believe people "deserve" to live. That was my point.
Yes, but a bear isn't going to bring it's kid to you and ask you to kill it. As a matter of fact, if you tried to kill a bear's child, then it would kill you. What is the confusion here?
It doesn't express it's feelings in the same way, but it obviously does express it, otherwise, it wouldn't mind when hunters kill their kid.
What? I never compared a bear's act to abortion, all I said was that humans created the idea of the sanctity of life, when reality life is not sacred. I'm not saying animals/people don't have the instinct to protect their young, they certainly do. But humans have the ability to go against that instinct if they believe it's for the better.
The instinct to protect your young is their, because they value life, if they thought it was worthless, then they wouldn't protect it.... Where does the confusion lie?
Obviously they don't think life is worthless, seeing as they have an instinct for survival and instinct to protect their young. I'm just saying they don't think it's sacred because in dire situations some animals will eat their young. Also, some animals perform "abortions" if they realize they do not have the means to care for a child. They realize sometimes killing their children/fetus is okay if it's for their benefit.
Besides, they only find their own species' lives to be of value. They wouldn't bat an eye killing a human, which shows that the sanctity of human life is restricted within our own species.
You're all over the place, first you talk about bears, then random animals? Do bears eat their young? Do they abort?
Also, humans kill other animals all the time, so I don't understand where you're trying to go with that....
I used bears as an example of something that's not a human. I never expressed a point that was solely about bears. Where are you going with this? My entire point was that only humans think human life is sacred. We made up the sanctity of life. We're not sacred to bears, turtles, tigers, etc. Human life is declared sacred only by humans because we said so, therefore discrediting it a little. Of course, other animals declare this as well, but obviously it isn't true because we don't regard our steaks as a sacred life. Thus, humans made up the idea of sanctity of life.
Yes, but humans obviously are NOT the only ones who value life. Bears care about life, they may not care about HUMAN life, but they care about THEIR life. I don't get why this is so complicated. Bears care about bears, humans care about humans. Humans are not bears and bears are not humans, can you make that distinction? Because if not,then you should get out of here. Tigers care about tigers, turtles about turtles, etc. Tigers don't go to abortion clinics to kill their young. They protect IT.
They protect it because it's their instinct, not because of morality, not because they believe in life's sanctity. Can you make that distinction? They don't protect it because they believe if they didn't they'd go to hell. They don't protect it because they believe all animals deserve to live. They don't protect it because they believe abortion is murder. They don't protect it because they believe a fetus is a viable member of their species. They protect it because it's their instinct to ward off predators trying to harm them. The trick here is that humans can act against their instinct. Obviously if you get pregnant you should give birth, but we can go against that. The only issue is morality, which bears and animals clearly do not have. We made up the idea that we should be moral to fetuses. Do you think if an animal had a miscarriage they would get depressed/sad like humans do? I don't. Animals don't have morals. They don't believe a fetus is sacred. I don't get what's confusing here either.
So did you talk to a bear and out all this? I guess it makes sense though, bears have all these instincts and one of it is to protect random garbage? Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Are you here to tell me that bears have the mental capacity to have religion and morals? Wow, you sure showed me you spent a lot of time researching bears. If you think fetuses/children are random garbage then yes, that's one of their instincts.
Yes, bears have religion, because religion is the only reason people don't kill. I actually saw a bear the other day at church. I talked to it and it said that, they do in fact have morals and can speak English. He also told me that everyone is the same and expresses themselves in the same exact way. Because if I hit a kid to express my love and it's different from your definition of love, then it's not love at all.
Oh, how fascinating. You must have a lot of knowledge. Tell me again how you believe all life is sacred. Are you a vegan? Do you not own leather or fur? Humans only think human life is sacred. Even if bears thought bears' lives were sacred, they clearly don't feel the same about humans.
Which brings me to my original point: human sanctity was invented by humans. Bears don't think humans' lives are sacred. Only humans believe human life is sacred. That is the only reason humans dislike abortion. Because they believe life is sacred. Bears do not believe human abortion is wrong. Bears will not protest outside of an abortion clinic. Only humans care about that. Even if I agreed with you and said bears believe their cubs' lives are sacred, they clearly don't believe that way for humans. Only humans care about humans. Only humans believe humans are sacred. Humans want life for humans, and called it sacred to keep them alive. I can't possibly be more clear than that.
I've said this a hundred times. I never said bears thought human lives are sacred, they think their own life is and their cubs. Just like humans don't think a bears life is sacred. What are you not getting?
I think bears believe their cubs' lives are important, maybe not sacred, but either way that's pretty common knowledge. They have an instinct to protect their young. Maybe I should rephrase: the sanctity of a human fetus is something humans made up. It's certainly sacred to humans, but it's not actually sacred in the sense that it's universally sacred and all organisms believe it to be.
Well, you should have said that in the first place.
Also, protection of the young is an instinct for most humans, this is why we consider it to be a sacred thing. Bears also have this instinct. We might not display it in the same way, because we're two completely different organisms, but it's essentially the same concept. Just like someone of a different race might not think life is sacred, but they would instinctively protect their young. So this sanctity comes from our instinct and our ability to rationalize. Other animals might not have this ability to rationalize, but they do have the basic instinct to protect their young. Given, this isn't true to all animals, it can be applied to most.
The reason I brought in the bear was to say another organism won't think you're sacred even though you think you're sacred. And that just proves you're not truly sacred. I should have said humans made up human sanctity. In abortion arguments, people should instead say it's natural to protect our young and carry it to term, rather than saying it's sacred, because it honestly isn't. Our young are extremely important to us, and it's natural for us to protect it, but we aren't sacred. We just think we are.
Bears don't think another organism is sacred, because they don't... think. If they were able to rationalize, then they would eventually reach the same conclusion, because it comes from this instinct.
Anyway, if sanctity is just a man made term, then why can't we be it? I mean we made it up to describe ourselves. It's like if I made up a new word to describe myself and you tell me that I'm not it. Who are you to tell me that? If someone sees blue and you see red, you can't tell them what they are seeing is wrong, YOU could be wrong. Perception is reality and if someone perceives that their life is sacred, then that's their reality. You can't expect other people's reality to match yours. It's impossible
Even if bears could think they wouldn't think we're sacred. We don't think they're sacred and we can think.
It doesn't matter what the word is. What I'm saying is we're not universally important, which is what sacred basically means. Saying we're universally important, overpowering, etc. is a fallacy. Sacred is just a word but it has a meaning.
Wtaf? I never said bears would think we're sacred. If they rationalized they would think, they were sacred....
What if we are though, how do you know for sure that we're not? Do you have any proof that we're not? And abortion doesn't necessarily have to be associated with the sanctity of life, a lot of people don't perform it, because it's a frigging life.
That's where a lot of argument comes in, because how do you define life? I define it as on the 18th - 21st day when they form a heart and it starts beating. Some people define it as after it's formed all it's organs and it's ready to come out. A psychopathic killer might define life as starting when you're over 50 and murder a bunch of people. Everyone has their own definition of anything and everything.
We're not universally important to every single creature on earth. That's kind of obvious. I know it's not all about sanctity, I was just pointing out one of the strongest aspects of the argument.
I believe life starts as soon as the mother produces the egg or the father produces the sperm. A lot of people say life starts at conception but the sperm and egg were alive. They had to be alive to actually make the fetus. At no point were the egg/sperm dead and resurrected to make a fetus. I just think that's the most scientifically accurate.
Just because someone has their own opinion doesn't mean they're always right. Some people thought the sun revolved around the earth, but just because they have their own way of perception doesn't mean they're correct. In a situation like that, people have the power to tell them they're wrong.
The US government can't kick you out because you refuse to become a citizen. I'm Canadian, I live in the States, and I will not become a citizen because I see no point in it, for I'm planning on moving back north. The US government cannot deport me for that.
What does that have to do with anything?
Ask Pug, she was the one who said that the US government can kick you out for refusing to be a citizen.
Anyone under the age of 18 has few to no rights in America either. Just saying.
Umm, yes you do. Those are lies parents and authority figures tell you. If you are arrested and under the age of 18 do you not get read your Miranda rights? Sure, you're rights are restricted to some extent, but you still have rights
The fetus isn't a sentient life form. It has no opinion and gets no choice. When you wash your hands, do you think about whether or not the bacteria on your hands want to live? Somehow I doubt that.
i won't compare a baby to bacteria.
What if bacteria was supposed to grow into babies but we didn't know because humans don't give bacteria a friendly environment to grow? BABY KILLER.
have you ever taken a science class? thats the dumbest thing i have heard. besides that point, Human life is not comparable to any animal or bacteria. but if you view your life as invaluable as bacteria, go for it.
I was on your side until that comment.
If you really like life so much, shouldn't animals get that right too?
animals are not humans. nor is bacteria. a fetus is a developing human.. and so are we. we develop more and more each day.
I agree, but you might wanna be careful with wording. It sounded like you don't care about animals.
Animals have feelings too. Have you ever owned a dog? Animal life is valuable too.
i love animals, i cried for weeks when my cat died. however that experience is incomparable to the grief i had when my dad died.. humans > animals.
thats all i meant.
You shouldn't respect an organism just because of its DNA. I agree that humans are superior to cats, but if intelligent aliens came to Earth, would you disrespect them just because they weren't homo sapiens? It's not as simple as "Human DNA = important."
A cat's life should still be more important than a fetus's. A fetus doesn't have feelings, and a cat does. We kill animals for our own convenience all the time regardless of how they feel about dying, but a fetus who has no feelings or thoughts should be spared?
how do you know it has no feelings or thoughts? i find it sad that you would rather kill a fetus (baby) than a cat.
why are you assuming i disrespect anything thats not a homo sapien? i still have respect for animals, i just value human life above it.
In order to be considered sentient, something must have a consciousness. In order to have a consciousness, by definition you must be conscious at some point. A fetus hasn't. It has nothing to think about. It has nothing to interact with. It can't possibly have feelings or thoughts. A cat does. I find it sad that you would rather kill a sentient life form than a potential human.
I'm not saying you disrespect non-humans. I'm just pointing out that you value a non-sentient life form more than a sentient one, just because it is technically human.
i believe thats when our consciousness grows. i do think fetus' have feelings and thoughts. it has an attachment to the mother and father from birth. thats why i value it. even if i did it, it would have became a human. and i would never stop someone from becoming something.
Your beliefs have no scientific evidence, and seem very unlikely. If you want to believe it, you can act on it, but there's no scientific evidence or logic to say it should be the law.
You would never stop something from becoming human, and that's your choice. Other women would stop something from becoming human if they had to, and that's their choice.
Yes, there is a natural expectation that a pregnant woman will give birth. There is also a natural expectation that we kill each other so only the strongest survive and reproduce. Let's go and make that the law, shall we?
Wiktionary defines human as "Of or belonging to the species Homo sapiens or its closest relatives." It also defines lightbulb as "An evacuated glass bulb containing a metal filament which is heated by electrical resistance to produce light." What's your point? Species isn't the one and only factor concerning the value of life. A cat isn't human, and a bacterium isn't human, but they are given much different amounts of respect.
Nothing you have said supports the idea that fetuses have a telepathic connection to their parents before they are born. If there is scientific evidence of this, then please tell me what it is.
Of course you cried more when your dad died, he was your dad. However, what would you find sadder, your cat dying or some random person you've never met before dying?
Whereas other animals don't age? ._.
It's proven that we are ANIMALS as well, dumb ass. You know nothing about science. We're just able to hold in more.
"Bible says to love". How many atrocities did god cause? I can name plenty. The bible shows gods evilness and his murders. The bible does NOT love.
no need for name calling. respect me, and i'll respect you
i highly doubt you have read the entire bible. most christians have not (i have actually). the old testament IS very brutal. however, in the new testament Jesus is all about love and forgiving. i still struggle with it, but the bible is a great example about love.
I can't name one reason humans are above or better than animals in any way.
Humans are perfectly able to be compared with animals, it's just that humans are so self-righteous they don't want to be "degraded" or whatever. We're all animals and nothing more.
just though i might add to this conversation, some animals have been shown to have "abortions" (i'm not sure what to call it, because they don't use doctors or wire hangers)
Rabbits, armadillos, sheep, gazelles, mice, geladas (a relative of the baboon), and domestic horses, to name a few.
thanks, i heard some dogs, too, but i'm not too sure.
Sorry, no respect for a Christian (who is pro-life !). You've already ruined my respect for you anyway. Especially with your support of violence.
I've read the whole bible before so don't make up things. I keep one right beside my night table and mock it in my dreams. I know the whole bible by heart.
Proves that you need to learn your facts a little bit more.
If you don't respect a Christian for her views, you are as much as a bigot as a Christian who rejects an atheist viewpoint.
God's atrocities? God didn't do shit. We as flawed humans caused atrocities through naive interpretation of his divine love. I'm no more religious than the next guy but I hate when a church leader from hundreds of years ago goes crazy and kills a bunch of homosexuals and people like you say 'god killed hundreds of homosexuals' his word stated that though homosexuality is to be disagreed with all humans are to be loved and cherished. You can't anthropomorphize god.
I've never met anyone who has interpreted the Bible that way. Why did you come to that conclusion? I'm curious.
Maybe I do! BRB GOING FOR BACTERIA.
Bacteria is actually essential for human life to thrive. So it's not invaluable.
I don't care how much hate I get for this, but I agree with you. Comparing a fetus to bacteria is lowering the value of human life
Human life is of the same value of a dog. You don't get to determine whose life is worth more.
What makes human life worth more than that of a fetus then?
I never said it was. If their lives are of the same worth, then the fetus' life is not more important than the mothers either. Therefore, both parties have equal say. However, the fetus cannot speak and we cannot put words in its mouth. The only option left is the mother's voice; listen to it.
To be asserting that the life of a fetus is equivalent to the life of a human and then continuing to be pro-choice seems bizarre. Whether or not you live or die should be completely your choice. If you're too young to make that choice, or, as it may be, not capable of making any choices, it shouldn't be given to somebody else without your permissions, as in some cases of euthanasia.
Assuming the mother's life is threatened by the birth, I support abortion because a conscious mind wins out against an unconscious one, but otherwise I don't see why abortion should be a viable option when adoption gives that choice just as well. It's not that I don't think people should be able to do what they want with their bodies, but rather that at that point it seems almost unfair to consider the fetus an extension of the body,
All lives are equal. However, what I'm not saying is all voices are equal. If you cannot by any means make a choice regarding your life, it should be given to your caretaker/family. If a child was comatose from birth, I would not believe it to be murder if he was taken off life support, for example.
Why is it unfair to consider it an extension? It's attached to the mother. It cannot live whatsoever without it. Sure, it eventually becomes a human life, but at the moment of the abortion, it's nothing more than a production of the mother's body. I do not owe a fetus anything. I don't owe it the gift of life. I don't owe it birth. Having sex does not mean a person's suddenly in debt that needs to be payed by giving birth.
I don't believe a comatose child and a fetus to be equivalent because the percentage of births where a fetus is developmentally retarded or comatose from birth isn't particularly significant. Of course you're correct about not owing the fetus anything, but it's not a matter of owing it something. I don't think pro-life or pro-choice is a position that can be defended by anything other than opinion, but to me 9 months, the only sacrifice that giving birth to a baby requires, is certainly worth the life of a fetus or a human being or a cat, and since the fetus will most likely eventually have a voice, I don't see why we shouldn't wait to give it one.
I always understand where pro-lifers are coming from, but the whole basis is in fact opinion. I just personally do not hold a fetus to any emotional significance. I think it's really unimportant. I don't think the death of a fetus is something immoral, and I don't think it's wrong.
That being said, no, abortion gives a baby no choice, so the gov't has to choose between the choice of the mother or the fetus. But the difference is pro-lifers always want the fetus to be born (except in cases of death, rape, etc) but pro-choicers think it's up to the mother to decide for herself. In my opinion that's just more fair.
I'm just going to try to more clearly outline my position, because I think I failed. Firstly, I believe that the life of a fetus is worth slightly less than that of a human being. If I was asked to pick between saving one or the other, I would never choose the fetus. However, I do think that the life of a fetus is worth more than nine months of a human's life.
Now, to me, if all babies that are not concieved of rape or cases of death are born, that means that all mothers will end up carrying babies for 9 months. If we give all mothers the choice, many will be born, and several will die in accordance with the mother's wishes. To me, the life of a fetus is worth more than those 9 months, and so I see that as more fair.
But I completely understand where you're coming from, because I think both ways have aspects of fairness and unfairness.
Right, but to think of it in perspective, 9 months of pregnancy is only bad if it's forced. Another thing is, who decided that the fetus wanted to live? Fetuses don't have desires, they're just there. Murder is wrong because the victim obviously wanted to live. Fetuses don't want anything. They're in a state of nothingness, basically, and moving them into a state of death isn't something that can be compared to murder.
It's true that they don't want to live, but to say it's all right to strip them of a choice they can't yet make for that reason seems bizarre. I wouldn't say it is murder to abort, but I would certainly compare the two, although murder is definitely far worse.
But once they're born, they're obviously going to choose life. You can't make a choice on abortion once you're already born.
So you believe that once born, all humans will choose life over death? Why should we give the choice to the mother when it seems certain as soon as the fetus/extension is capable it will choose life?
Because its unfair for her to give birth to a child she wishes were dead.
Hmm. I'd have to agree with you there. Somehow, though, I find it more unfair for a life to be terminated because the mother wants the child to be dead.
But they can't comprehend life and don't have thoughts, whereas the mother can and will go through every excruciating step of giving birth. The fetus will feel nothing.
Only because it isn't given the chance to grow.
Then, will being given a chance to grow make death somehow less bad?
Yes, I think being given a chance to experience life is very important, even though it may seem meaningless. To me, being able to experience life and find your own meaning and try to obtain it is extremely important.
But babies are unable to make decisions...
This argument has never made any sense to me. The baby is incapable of deciding weather or not it wants to live, so it's up to the parents.
So instead of allowing them to live to grow older to make a decision, we just murder them, hoping that, that's what they would have wanted? Is that the logic there?
If they're not dead, they can choose to end their life, on their accord. If they are, they can't choose to live.
Well, first of all suicide is also illegal, and I feel it hurts a lot more people than abortion. Fetus's don't have friends, teachers, people who talk to them.
I'm not saying that the parents make the decision based on what the child might want, that's insane. Fetus's don't have opinions. I'm saying they need to make the choice that's best for the child.
My friend's father was adopted, and she said it ended very badly because the adopted parents really shouldn't have adopted. Then there are poor and abused children that could have been saved from all that pain.
I've been going through depression this year, and I can't tell you how much I've wanted to be dead. In fact, I would rather die then go through the worst of it again.
Sometimes what's best for a person is to never be born.
It's not up to you or anyone else to say what's worth living for. I used to live with a druggie and then adopted to abusive parents. It's rough, but I'm dealing with it just fine. Sometimes the people that value life the most are people who have went through a ton of shit. The people who are driven are the ones who have seen the worst of this planet. If only fit parents raised children, then this world would be so much worse than it is.
From what I gather, it's your will that abortion be illegal. That affects another life. If it's between taking the choice away from the mother and taking the choice away from the fetus, I'd rather take the choice away from the one that cannot think and make choices.
I understand what you're saying. I'm pro-choice and I also want people to choose life but I just don't feel that I have the right to take away someone else's choice. I don't like abortion (who does?), but I'm going to stand up for a woman's right to get one because it's her body, not mine
No shit you're going to side with this. You're probably Christian.
Why would she side with this if she's Christian?
lol okay? people have to be Christian to be against abortion?
Yes. The people that are pro-life (very stupid in my opinion) are mainly Christians.
you're giving a bad rep for pro-choicer's.. luckily i'm not ignorant to think they're all like you. have respect for others and they will have respect for you.. all i did was voice what i think and you're calling me stupid for being pro-life. since you're pro-choice shouldn't i have the choice to what opinion i have?
The thing about pro-life that people don't agree with is that you guys are trying to make the decision about pregnancy for EVERYONE, not just yourselves because of what? Your morals? What about MY morals? Why should we have laws that please your ideology and not mine instead of having something that is a compromise? You're trying to say "hey lady, I don't care how old you are, how financially stable you are, what race you are, how many kids you already have, or how high your risk of death may be because of a pregnancy. If you get pregnant you're GOING to have a baby, no if, ands, or buts about it!" If you don't ever want to have an abortion, kudos to you, but not everyone is you. You have no right to make that decision for anybody else except for yourself SO STOP TRYING. There's a reason abortion was legalized in the first place. It's not going anywhere, k? :)
The reason why abortion was legalized in the frist place was for rape victims and incest victims... I believe a woman has the right to do what she wants with her body, but if she is going to lay down and have unprotect sex then she should have to deal with the concequences or do the morning after pill..
Sometimes contraception doesn't work.
In no way do I agree with using abortion as a form of birth control, but what about the people who do take the precautions to not get pregnant because they don't want a kid and they end up pregnant. No contraceptive is 100% and accidents do happen. A couple who were friends of my family had that happen to them, and yeah, I believe she should be able to have the abortion since she didn't want a kid. What we really need to do is better educate young men and women about sex so that they make smarter choices about sex and if they do end up pregnant that can say it wasn't because they weren't being safe
Okay.. But the plan B pill works in a similar way to birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. I totally agree with you about we need to educate young men and women better then maybe we won't see as much teenage pregnancy as we do now.. It would probably lower the amount but the thing is teenagers need to realize that having a baby is a huge responiblity.. If they are going to lay down and have unprotected sex then they should have to deal with the concequences. Just sayin or give it up for adoption because I am sure their is someone out there that would be happy to give that child a happy home.. But then again it there life they have that right to choose whether to have an abortion or not.. But it shouldnt happen all the time once or twice is fine but more then that you need to get fixed or stop having sex!!
Yeah I totally agree. If you're getting pregnant so often that you're having multiple abortions a year or whatever you should probably reevaluate your life and your life choices. Getting an abortion once or twice is probably because you made an honest mistake, any more than that and you should probably get your shit together because you're obviously doing something wrong haha
To expect people in this day and age to not have sex just because they might get pregnant isn't practical. What's the point of having birth control and condoms available for use if it is expected that people don't have sex unless they are ready for a child? Birth control, condoms, etc. are made so that people practice safe sex, and part of safe sex is reducing the risk of pregnancy but since that risk cannot be reduced to 0% by using contraceptives, yes, people get abortions when they fail. We are sexual beings. If the whole act of sex was only about procreation and not about pleasure, then why is it pleasurable?
No but I'm saying expecting everyone to wait to have sex until they are married is impractical. A main reason people even wait to have sex in the first place has to do with religion. Not everyone is religious. Do just because one person's moral code says to wait doesn't mean anyone else's does too
I'm sure it would feel pretty shitty. I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. I would never get an abortion. I just understand everyone is not me and there are people who do stupid things and don't take precautions but I still don't think it's okay to take that right away from them because it is their body, not mine. It has nothing to do with me at all.
Also, not everyone chooses life. If everyone did, there would be no suicides.
And I have a hypothetical question for anyone who wants to answer:
Let's say there is a lady who is hooked on drugs and is an alcoholic. She doesn't come from a good background and lives in a shitty neighborhood. She gets pregnant but doesn't have the money to get the abortion she desperately wants. So she has this baby, who grows up feeling unloved and is neglected. He resorts to a life of crime. He comes to your house and kills your whole family. Would you be happy he wasn't aborted?
I can honestly answer this question and say no, I wouldn't be happy that he wasn't aborted because my family would still be alive. And I don't think that makes anyone a bad person for feeling and answering that question with that answer.
I get that you, personally, are not trying to take away anyone's rights, but the illegalization of abortion would. And I agree, the less abortions the better. And yes, having them all stop would definitely be best. I just don't think making abortion illegal will stop people from getting them. A black market for abortions would definitely happen if it is ever illegalized. And having random unexperienced people looking for a couple bucks by taking advantage of desperate women who want to get an abortion is very dangerous.
But I would like to see everybody choose life and I would also like to see people stop making really stupid decisions when it comes to sex. I just don't think making abortion illegal is the first step to making that happen. I would rather see more action being done to get people to place where they don't even consider abortion at all except for life threatening reasons.
In a perfect world...
Sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth by saying the thing about if it were illegal. I was just saying that that would specifically be the point where a woman's right would be taken away.
And I agree. Everyone wants other people to make that right decision, the problem is not everyone agrees on what that right decision is.
I also agree that that is something we should strive for. I just think a lot of the time when debates about abortion come up people forget about what actions lead up to someone feeling like they need an abortion. I believe the most important thing is to solve the problem from its foundation, which would be better sex education and truly making men and women understand the consequences of their actions before they are actually faced with them. I think just trying to fix the problem that's on the surface and not bothering to do anything about what's at the core is a recipe for disaster
You make a very good point. If there is nothing wrong with one abortion, there must not be anything wrong with 20 abortions.
Personally, I could never get an abortion. I would fall in love with the little fetus inside of me as soon as I found out I was pregnant. But I still want people who need an abortion to always have that option.
I like that comment. My exact views on aboriton.
/facepalm. You just proved your ignorance.
AND the point of this post: you think i'm trying to control pregnancies everywhere. thats the equivalent of me saying you want to kill babies everywhere.
i'm not pro-life so i can control people, i'm pro-life because i am against murder.
how would you like it if i said "YOURE JUST TRYING TO KILL ALL THE BABIES! WELL STOP BECAUSE ITS NOT GOING ANYWHERE KAY??" yeah no.
Lol, like someone said earlier pro-life and pro-abortion are not the same thing, so that argument doesn't work. Making abortions illegal would force women to have babies they don't want, therefore it is controlling. Nice try though!
well having an abortion is not giving a baby a chance to live, therefore murder. Nice try though!
Definition of murder:
The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
It's not a baby nor a human being, it's an embryo or fetus, therefore it's not murder
Embryo and fetus are just names for unborn human beings, just like baby is the name for a newborn human being, child is the name for a young human being and adult is the name for a grown up human being.
Embryo and fetus are names for unborn mammals, not just human beings.
Actually, abortion isn't murder. The baby is not classified as a human yet, thus it cannot be murder. If life began at conception, then we'd all be able to legally drink at 20 years old, and 3 months, since we're all in the womb for 9 months (unless the baby is pre-mature.). You're probably one of those bible thumpers and hand out the bible on the street.
I'm ignorant? You're ignorant. I told you what I thought and you slam me for my opinions? wtf.
I was just helping you out. Hopefully sooner enough you'll have enough strength to leave this Christian cult.
none of my comments reflected an sign of my christian belief. i never brought God into the conversation.
you assuming i just want to control everybody is 'slamming' me for my opinions actually. i was just going off what you wrote. doesn't feel to good eh? next time respect others and don't just assume. God bless!
You just don't get it do you. Without abortions, will come more violence than ever (something that the Christians are aiming for). What would you rather have? A women continuously beating and hurting herself and the fetus or a professional trained doctor quickly taking the fetus out (causing no pain for the mother or fetus).
"No pain, no game" is probably the most inspirational quote for Christians.
oh my goodness, i thought we settled this but you just want to keep at it.
you think i'm a horrible person that wants to control people. you have even accused me of being in a cult.
I DO NOT APROVE OF ABORTIONS. can you not respect that?
and about christianity..
you're very judgmental. have you even talked to any christian as a person? i know some can be very un-understanding. but the bible says to love. thats what christians are here for. i'm turing this argument into that because you are disrespecting my beliefs and i'm NOT okay with that. i respect whatever views you have on abortion, but do not accuse me of things.
I'm sure that whoever made the blog was probably lying their ass off just to get attention. Also, using Tumblr should never be used as proof since it is not a reliable source. There is no such thing a pro-life atheist.
pro-life does not automatically mean christian. people can be against it because it goes against their personal morals. i'm not pro-life because i'm christian, but its because of my morals.
No. If you look up pro-life, it'll most likely be on a Christian website. Whatever your priest/family tells you, you will obviously just follow it. I'm assuming you're from a Christian family. The reason why you follow the ideas of Christianity is because you were taught to. Many people that follow this idea are brainwashed and have no voice.
You're pro-life because the Christians already got to you.
first off, its stupid going anonymous if you're the one voting down my comments and voting up yours. just saying.
secondly, i'm not blinding following. religion is not what i'm made up of. i have my own views and thoughts that differ from my church. you would be surprised. please don't tell me like you know who i am. you don't.
lastly "the christians got to you"? what is it some kind of illness? being a christian is not about 'brainwashing' people, as you think.
I've been raised in a Christian family and attended a Christian school my whole life, but I'm neither Christian nor pro-life. Does't that kind of put holes in your theory?
First of all, I will never be interested in looking up those links. It's sad that you even look up these kind of things and continue to spread their word around. Stop giving these liars publicity!
Many Christians actually know that the whole bible was a lie but continue to follow it since it's the "cool" thing to do. The person who created Christianity and the bible was a liar and it's sad that people support this.
And no, there is not such things. I'm 100% you're just making up.
You know what this is? Second hand humiliation. I feel humiliated because what you said. Was that. Fuckin. Stupid.