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If you argue that homosexuality is permissible on the basis that the act is between two consenting adults who cause no harm to others, then you cannot say that incest is immoral or anything short of a healthy alternative lifestyle. No valid analytic argument can be made for the acceptance of one with the rejection of the other. amirite?

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Alternative? Yes. Healthy? Psychological analysis of people in incestuous relationships would say no.

pikabeaus avatar pikabeau No Way +14Reply
@pikabeau Alternative? Yes. Healthy? Psychological analysis of people in incestuous relationships would say no.

If psychological analysis turns up bad results, that doesn't mean it's caused by the incestuous relationship. Correlation is not causation. Perhaps the mental damage was caused by all the stigma and hate directed at them because of their relationship? If that was the case, being accepting would actually cause the problem to go away. Ambigous as your comment is, I can't add much. Did the analysis show up DIFFERENT results, or ones indisputably harmful? If it's just different, who's to say that's harmful? Maybe letting them be would cause them less mental harm than breaking them up, exposing them as incestuous and putting them in treatment (all of which could be mentally devastating)?
Also, for the birth defects thing, it's a tiny increase.It results in an increased rate of homozygous (identical) alleles. That's all. A child still has a chance to NOT inherit those alleles, and even if it does, they're probably the alleles for something totally harmless. We don't stop two people with Down's syndrome having children. We don't stop two people whose families have a history of cancer or heart defects from having children. Why is this different, even though the risk is smaller?

Chous avatar Chou Yeah You Are 0Reply
@Chou If psychological analysis turns up bad results, that doesn't mean it's caused by the incestuous relationship...

So you know of an incestuous couple that was mentally stable before they entered the relationship? I don't think their relationships causes any disorders-- I think the desire to be with a family member is simply a side affect. They do not need treatment because they are incestuous, they need treatment for the preexisting mental illness. If they still desire the relationship when they are mentally stable, so be it. For anything to be defined as a mental illness it has to be harmful in some way, shape or form. Incestuous relationships are not harmful, but they are caused by something. I believe this because I have yet to see a single incestuous relationship that did not result from either trauma (emotional or physical) that resulted in some disorder or from simply being born with a disorder.

As for it not being harmful to offspring, I call bull on that one. Ever wonder why there's a long list of illnesses purebred dogs are prone to? It's because lines of purebred dogs are the result of inbreeding. Mutts are much healthier dogs because their parents are not brother and sister. The immune system of children of incestuous relationships is often times compromised. I don't know -c-

@pikabeau So you know of an incestuous couple that was mentally stable before they entered the relationship? I don't think...

I do not know of ANY incestuous couples, so I'm afraid I can't answer with anecdotal 'evidence'. I'm simply saying that your theory that incestuous people are mentally unstable is composed of assumptions - there was a time that gay people would've been seen as 'mentally unstable'; heck, even women who didn't want to be subserviant or have children were seen as 'mentally unstable'! (In fact, some of those prejudices still exist). How is that any different from what you're saying?

I didn't say it wasn't harmful to offspring. What I said was the increased risk was negligible. Over hundreds of generations of incest, such as in dogs (or, for human examples, royal families who do not allow wedlock with non-royals), there WILL be genetic defects because of basic probability. Over one generation, it's really not much that higher than children from parents completely unrelated. It "will cause genetic defects" in the same way that driving a car "will cause you dying in a crash". It can happen. You're at an increased risk. But the chance of it happening is still unlikely enough that you shouldn't worry enoguh to stop.

Chous avatar Chou Yeah You Are +1Reply
@Chou I do not know of ANY incestuous couples, so I'm afraid I can't answer with anecdotal 'evidence'. I'm simply saying...

I'd also like to add that just because they're mentally unstable, it doesn't make it wrong. Prejudice against the mentally or physically handicapped is still prejudice (ableism), and those people are just as entitled to happiness as you are.

It is also true that sometimes providing treatment is more harmful than just letting them cope - if the person in the incestuous relationship does not believe they're mentally unstable, being constantly told they are and treated like they're insane could be psychologically damaging. (I don't know if you've ever extensively studied psychology, but there is a debate about whether people wrongly diagnosed as insane begin to fit the label. ROSENHAN study is a good one to look up if you're interested. The idea is, basically, if you treat someone as crazy and constantly call them crazy, their behaviour will change to fit your label. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.)

So even if you do believe they're mentally unwell, that still doesn't mean it's a reason to treat incestuous couples with contempt.

Chous avatar Chou Yeah You Are +1Reply
@Chou I do not know of ANY incestuous couples, so I'm afraid I can't answer with anecdotal 'evidence'. I'm simply saying...

I'm not basing it on assumptions. I'm basing it on what we know about incest now. If we find out more that supports those relationships, my tone might change.

The genetic defects appear after many generations. The immune system defects appear after one generation. Children of incestuous parents are sickly little things.

@pikabeau I'm not basing it on assumptions. I'm basing it on what we know about incest now. If we find out more that supports...

But we don't KNOW that about incestuous couples and since it's illegal (in most places), I imagine it's very difficult to study because people won't admit to it. I've never heard of any proof or even suggestions that there's a mental condition that causes people to want incestuous relationships. (Also, just because something is abnormal, it doesn't mean it's a mental illness.)

And, like I said, diabetics have decreased immune systems. So do babies that weren't breastfed and used bottled milk, from birth. And people who aren't vaccinated. None of those are illegal (aside from maybe the last one, none are even really frowned upon), and it is never even guaranteed to surface at all.

Chous avatar Chou Yeah You Are +3Reply
@Chou But we don't KNOW that about incestuous couples and since it's illegal (in most places), I imagine it's very...

I'm not saying they have a mental illness because it's abnormal. I'm saying it because they have a mental illness.

There is a difference in weak immune system an compromised immune system. Imagine being born with something that made you have the immune sysem of someone in the early stages of HIV. That's what incest does.

Also, I don't know if incest is illegal. I know marrying your brother is, but I think the relationship itself is legal.

@pikabeau I'm not saying they have a mental illness because it's abnormal. I'm saying it because they have a mental illness...

OK, I'm going to drop this because I don't really think you're getting what I'm saying. I'm asking what makes you so sure it's a mental illness; there are debates about whether depression, bipolarity, MPD/DID are mental illnesses! Incest/incest-causing mental illnesses are no way as widely recognised as even those. There's no way for you to know it's a mental illness and it could do more harm than good to label it as such.

I'm also saying that yes, there is a genetic risk, but it is not the indisputable truth you're making it sound like. It's totally possible for children with incestuous parents to be as healthy as ones with unrelated parents. And I don't HAVE to imagine that; my whole family is diabetic and so I DO have a very poor immune system, thanks. This is my point. Genetic defects happen all the time, and incest (especially in just one or even two generations) really doesn't improve the chances by a whole lot.

I'll reply if anyone wants to add something new, but I'm just going to leave this for now. :)

Chous avatar Chou Yeah You Are +1Reply
@Chou OK, I'm going to drop this because I don't really think you're getting what I'm saying. I'm asking what makes you...

I get what you're trying to say, and I know that you are wrong.
There is not a single incest causing mental illness. Different mental illnesses can manifest with completely different side affects. One such side affect can be incest. Everyone in an incestuous relationship has some form of a mental illness, so it can be concluded that the mental illness is the cause of their incestuous thoughts. However, not everyone with a mental illness wants to have sex with their brother. I don't care if it's being debated on whether or not those particular things are mental illness, with the science we have right now, they are, in fact, mental illnesses.
You have a poor immune system? Great. I bet you won't go to the hospital if you catch the common cold. That's how bad I'm talking about. It is very possible for children with related parents are born perfectly healthy. What about after they're born? This is the exact same reason we discourage people with AIDS from reproducing.

@pikabeau I get what you're trying to say, and I know that you are wrong. There is not a single incest causing mental...

The thing is pikabeau, every single thing you have argued in the con to incest, was a valid argument against homosexuality 60 years ago. It was 'known' without evidence that homosexuality was a mental illness and intelligence deficiency just like your argument is what you 'know' with no real evidence that incest is caused by mental illness. They are the same in that they are both fine, but both are also defects of the proper human being. There is no argument for homosexuality that does not include being pro incest, and there is no argument against incest that does not also attack homosexuality

Anonymous -2Reply
@The thing is pikabeau, every single thing you have argued in the con to incest, was a valid argument against...

Yes, valid 60 years ago.
We understand biology better now, so these arguments no longer apply to homosexuality, but they still apply to incest. We have proof; there is science behind my claims. I cannot find one thing that supports the claim that incest, namely brother/sister and parent/child incest, poses little genetic risk. Sure, cousins having kids is pretty safe, but not all incest is cousin/cousin incest.

@pikabeau Yes, valid 60 years ago. We understand biology better now, so these arguments no longer apply to homosexuality...

Show us the studies that invest is CAUSED by mental illness, please. Not that they correlate, but that it is a causal relationship.

Suzywaos avatar Suzywao Yeah You Are 0Reply
@Suzywao Show us the studies that invest is CAUSED by mental illness, please. Not that they correlate, but that it is a...

Causation is often determined by correlation.
I can't find a study on the psychological disorders being the cause of incest. Most of the studies I find refer to incest as abuse and the cause of future disorders. Even the anecdotes of people in incestuous relationships did not end well.
I think I need to post this for people who think there is little genetic risks to incest:
http://www.livescience.com/2226...oo-nature.html

@pikabeau Yes, valid 60 years ago. We understand biology better now, so these arguments no longer apply to homosexuality...

Many of the arguments against Homosexuality didn't have to do with biology though. A huge percentage disagree with incest because it's unnatural... Just like homosexuality. There is science behind the claim that 2 people related by a varying degree of blood that are in love should not allowed to be together? If it's the genetic factor, that's horse shit. We let people with hereditary defects reproduce don't we? The risk of a genetically deformed baby is actually incredibly small. But ignoring that, what about without the genetic factor? If my infertile cousin loves and wants to be with my infertile sister, what reason exactly are you standing by that they're not allowed to marry? Cause those circumstances are still illegal

Anonymous 0Reply
@Chou If psychological analysis turns up bad results, that doesn't mean it's caused by the incestuous relationship...

Sorry if my above reply is choppy; it was too long so I had to cut out a lot. Also, yes, I did copy and paste the last bit from my comment on the other incest-discussing post, because it's still relavant.

Chous avatar Chou Yeah You Are 0Reply
@Chou If psychological analysis turns up bad results, that doesn't mean it's caused by the incestuous relationship...

-c-
about you, but I think children who are prone to dying from the common cold are pretty bad off.
We don't stop people with a history of genetic orders from having children, but we do encourage people who plan on having children getting screened to see if they are a carrier for a disorder. Why would we do that unless we were trying to prevent handicapped children from being born? I'm not saying they definitely should not have children, but I do think they should be more wary.

@pikabeau Alternative? Yes. Healthy? Psychological analysis of people in incestuous relationships would say no.

I posted a link up there. The risk is by no means small.

The arguments against homosexuality used to be, and sometimes still are, biological. Have you never heard anyone say, "If the whole world was gay, there would be no more people?"
Cousins can still get married in 20 states. I don't even think dating cousins counts as incest because the risk is little to none. I don't really think my issue is so much with people who are related getting married, but more that they reproduce. I don't agree with people who know they're carriers for certain genetic illnesses reproducing or people with AIDS reproducing. It's dangerous. Even if the trait is recessive, it's much more likely to be passed on if the parents are blood relatives. Doubling damaged chromosomes is also a huge risk. I know the risk is very low with cousins, but I'm not talking about cousins. Many places don't even consider cousin on cousin sex to be incest. I'm talking about undisputed incest between brother and sister or child and parent. That is, without a doubt, absolutely dangerous and I will not condone such a relationship.

@pikabeau Alternative? Yes. Healthy? Psychological analysis of people in incestuous relationships would say no.

Is it anyone else's place to say whether or not anyone else's relationships are good for them? There are people who have been scarred by homosexual relationships and people who are scarred by heterosexual relationships. But as long as the relationship stays between two consenting adults, then condemnation can only spring from bigotry and upbringing.

Anonymous -1Reply
@Is it anyone else's place to say whether or not anyone else's relationships are good for them? There are people who...

I'm not saying the relationship is bad for them. It's just a fact that people who seek incestuous relationships are not in a healthy psychological state. It's not the relationship that makes them crazy, for lack of a better term, but it is the fact that they are crazy that makes them desire that type of relationship.

@pikabeau I'm not saying the relationship is bad for them. It's just a fact that people who seek incestuous relationships are...

Even in my best attempts to stay non-judgmental, I find that many people experiment with and even pursue bi/homosexuality as a form of rebellion. Can we condemn those people's lifestyles because they spring from that type of mindset?

Anonymous -3Reply
@Even in my best attempts to stay non-judgmental, I find that many people experiment with and even pursue...

Nope. Rebellion is not a mental disorder.

Mindset and psychological state are two different things. Show me one incestuous couple where the people involved do not have some sort of psychological disorder and I will call that relationship valid.

@pikabeau Nope. Rebellion is not a mental disorder. Mindset and psychological state are two different things. Show me one...

I guess that's a decent argument. If the post said "between two sane consenting adults" though, then I suppose you'd agree with it.

Beyond the original argument, do you think that some one who has found homo/bisexuality as a result from true psychological damage (abusive childhood, abandonment issues), would you discredit that person's right to choose their own relationships as well? Better yet, is anyone with psychological damage qualified to be in any type of relationship?

Anonymous +4Reply
@I guess that's a decent argument. If the post said "between two sane consenting adults" though, then I suppose...

No I would not.
When it comes to people seeking a same sex partner due to past experience, it is usually because they're in a bad state at that moment. However, once they recover, if they still wish to pursue a homosexual relationship, who can say they're doing it just because they're suffering from damage? People who are in incestuous relationships are only in them while they're in that unhealthy psychological state that usually results from a mental illness. Once they get treatment for the mental illness (not the relationship) the natural impulse to leave the nest and find an unrelated mate kicks in.

@pikabeau No I would not. When it comes to people seeking a same sex partner due to past experience, it is usually because...

At this point, the argument boils down to particulars of psychological recovery. To what extent can someone recover from severe disorders? How sure can we be that someone is or is not fully recovered? Do incestuous relationships exclusively stem from mental disorders? Are large amounts of unrecognized disorders present in the homosexual community?

I make no claim that I'm truly qualified to answer any of these questions. I doubt the conversation can progress without the answers. I've said what I've wanted to say so I'm happy ending this here. However, I'd gladly read anything else you want to add.

Anonymous +8Reply
@At this point, the argument boils down to particulars of psychological recovery. To what extent can someone recover...

I think I can try to answer some of those questions. I'm not qualified in a professional sense to answer, but I'm a psychology major, so I like to pretend I know about this stuff.
To what extent can someone recover from severe disorders?
People do not usually recover, as in being cured, from a mental illness. They can be "taught" how to act in society and can achieve some level of normalcy in their though processes. This varies from each individual.

How sure can we be that someone is or is not fully recovered?
We can know someone is "recovered" from analysis of their thought processes and how well they assimilate into society. If they are functioning and still desire an incestuous relationship, it can be concluded that the desire was not a result of the illness. However, this have never been done: people always leave the relationship once "recovered"

Do incestuous relationships exclusively stem from mental disorders?
There has not been a documented case of a modern incestuous relationship in which at least one participant did not have a mental disorder, making correlation between mental disorder apparent.-c-

@At this point, the argument boils down to particulars of psychological recovery. To what extent can someone recover...

Are large amounts of unrecognized disorders present in the homosexual community?
That cannot be answered by anyone. If a disorder goes unrecognized, it cannot be documented. However, there are large amounts of personality disorders present in the homosexual community. Personality disorders and mental disorders are very different.

Anonymous +4Reply

Babies from an incestuous pregnancy are more likely to have defects - So I can be against incest but an advocate for homosexuality.
Many against abortion say the fetus is a life with the same rights as us. How can you say that but then be wanting to take rights away from gays?

mliasuxs avatar mliasux No Way +14Reply
@mliasux Babies from an incestuous pregnancy are more likely to have defects - So I can be against incest but an advocate...

For argument's sake, let's assume these relatives are not fertile. (But even if they were likely to have a child, we don't prevent other couples from having babies who have a history of genetic diseases.)

I'm not making any comment about abortion. I'm really just trying to point out how shallow our culture's moral code is. "So long as you don't hurt anyone, you're a fantastic human being."

I also think gay marriage should be legal even by Christian standards because just because something is "wrong" doesn't mean it should be illegal. Liars are walking the streets as free men and women.

Anonymous +8Reply
@For argument's sake, let's assume these relatives are not fertile. (But even if they were likely to have a child...

I know I'll probably get yelled at by someone, but I'm always fascinated by what falls under condemnation in views of religion and to what extent they oppose it. I've heard countless people claim to be "good christians" then call for the death of homosexuals, or have their rights taken away. From what I've read in the bible, there doesn't seem to be much homosexuality specifically tied to the christian origins. Although there are many accounts of incest (Adam and Eve's family, Noah and his family repopulating the world after the flood, Lot's daughters getting him drunk and becoming pregnant from him) and yet I've never met anyone who says we should kill or condemn those that perform incest. Seems backwards to me that they're stricter about what has less presence in their history.

@mliasux Babies from an incestuous pregnancy are more likely to have defects - So I can be against incest but an advocate...

Parents with genetic defects (whether they're simply carriers or actually express it in their phenotype) and older couples are more likely to have defects as well- should we ban these people from reproducing?

Anonymous +3Reply
@Parents with genetic defects (whether they're simply carriers or actually express it in their phenotype) and older...

True. I was drawn to this post b/c one time I realized my reasoning to my support to homosexuality was applicable to incest but I didn't feel like I supported incest. So I had asked around and the increased chance of birth defects was often given as the reason that it's okay to not support incest. It makes me worried that I just support gay marriage and not incest b/c of what the popular movement is and not my true beliefs b/c I'm currently taking a Media class and am now so observant in ways we are manipulated all day.

People need to open their mind. That "ick" feelinh used to be the same feeling nearly everyone had about homosexuality. I understand how one would hesitate to support (or at least not condemn) incestual relationships. But, when it comes down to it, it's not nearly as horrid as we seem to think it is. The "ick" factor that one feels when they think of incest is almost entirely due to external factors. There was a time when it was "normal" for one to marry their cousin. It's all a social thing. If you look into it from a logical standpoint, there's no reason why it's not "okay."

Surprised to find myself on this side.

Monopolygamys avatar Monopolygamy Yeah You Are +11Reply
@Monopolygamy People need to open their mind. That "ick" feelinh used to be the same feeling nearly everyone had about...

I agree. It is a social thing. It wasn't until the Catholic Church came around and set limits to sex that incest and homosexuality became something "sick" and "wrong" (not that I am hating on the religion). At the time it was probably good because of all the diseases going around and that half the time it was unconsented sex, but through the years human minds have been constricted to this idea we are told is socially acceptable. Countries today still do allow marriage within families but for some reason this is seen as wrong. When you really think about it, is it that wrong? You can not exactly argue any point to homosexuality without the same arguments to incest. As long as the two adults are consenting, who are we to really judge?

Anonymous +4Reply

I don't think it should be illegal, but I just can't imagine growing up with someone and then being interested in them romantically/sexually. It's not really the fact that they're related, it's the way they were raised together. Step-siblings whose parents got married when they were really young or adopted siblings would be just as strange. Whereas if you were dating someone and later found out you were somehow related, that wouldn't be that strange.

My view as always: it's your life so go do whatever the fuck you want with it.

acisseJs avatar acisseJ Yeah You Are +7Reply

You people aren't reading the "If you argue that homosexuality is permissible on the basis that the act is between two consenting adults who cause no harm to others" part. If you don't use that as your argument of why you're a supporter of gay marriage/relationships, then this post does not apply to you. Learn to read.

shelbybuckffss avatar shelbybuckffs Yeah You Are +5Reply
@shelbybuckffs You people aren't reading the "If you argue that homosexuality is permissible on the basis that the act is between...

You're assuming I don't use that as one of my arguments when I do. That does not mean I should condone incestuous relationships.

Incest causes weird genetic diseases. Homosexuality doesn't.

@Graverotti Incest causes weird genetic diseases. Homosexuality doesn't.

We don't prevent two people with a history of genetic illness from having children; how can we justify doing this only in this situation?

Regardless, do you think infertile incest is permissible?

Anonymous +6Reply

I'M A PROM NIGHT DUMPSTER BABY

Anonymous +3Reply

You mad bro?

Incest is not "healthy" because it causes a decrease and genetic variability which leads to decline in adaptability and accumulation of deleterious mutations. Both of which can lead to dwindling populations and ultimate extinction (just ask the mammoths).
Homosexuals, on the other hand, just dkmt reproduce and only affect their own fitness and not the survival of the entire species.

Anonymous 0Reply
@So who is to say an incest couple can't adopt just like a homosexual couple?

(ohyah;)): adoption agencies would never give a child to an incestuous couple foremost because incest is currently illegal

http://www.psychologytoday.com/...problem-incest

Incest: Causes birth defects, prevents further advancement in genetics, is a trademark of backwoods uncivil people who have a closed and hostile social circle, is also a trademark of some of the most traumatic and tyrannical monarchies in history. Kings born of incest were always looking to make babies with their families, and were emotionally and psychologically unstable. They did things like have people tortured in the balls and beheaded for their amusement, or for petty revenge. Most of the time they were incompetent and served only as a terrifying figurehead for the advisors who actually ran the kingdom, and weren't technically retarded. Charles II of Spain screwed up everything, and he is about the most competent and least evil of all the incestral kings I've ever heard of.

Alexander the great on the other hand, was gay, and if he still ruled the world maybe we would be educated enough to know the difference between being gay and being downright uncivilized and sociopathic and/or antisocial to boot.
Maybe we would know the difference between the bearing sexual orientation has on social responsibilities and effects of genetic degradation on the human body and brain.

I'm not going to drop names, but I once knew someone raised by gay parents who wound up applying himself to being a leader and a philanthropist in the making, he could make hyper realistic drawings of just about anything and jump over peoples heads, compose orchestral pieces on cello and piano, and hold some of the most entertaining conversations I've ever had the pleasure of partaking in at the age of 17.

I also once knew someone who was inbred, who will go unnamed for fear of his wrath. He seemed normal at first, except for his creepy staring problem and the fact that everything he said was intentionally offensive to anyone who had any kind of ideal. Then I got to know him for real and found out he was obsessive compulsive about wiping small amounts of his feces on everything he owned, and he had this quirk of thinking he owned anything he wanted. He rapped three women and a dog. another I watched him bust in the head with a fire extinguisher because she wouldn't have sex with him. That was his caregiver, which wasn't provided to him along with his social worker until he was forced by a court to submit to a psyche analysis. He literally worshiped Satan. Upon prodding him for his reasoning in this strange behavior, he gave me a rather introspective answer. He said as he sucked his booboo stained finger and drooled on his state provided poptart and 3rd grade level text book, " I like to scare people! I want them to bow down to me or leave me alone! I'm not a part of them, I'm with Satan.. Yeup! cuz he's the beast, he's gona bring pain to everyone but his followers and I follow him because I'm better than them! I **** hate humans!" I asked him why doesn't he hate himself then, and he said that he didn't consider himself human, he thought he was something better. Fit for a king? Fit for a parent?

I do note that not all inbred people are this bad, but it's a degrading spectrum. Children of inbred families have much more difficulty in life than those raised by gay couples, who are tolerant and OPEN MINDED ENOUGH TO START A FAMILY WITH SOMEONE WHO IS NOT ALREADY RELATED TO THEM.

They can. But lost gay people adopt solely because they can't reproduce with each other. That, however, is not the case with incest couples. They can make their own babies just fine. So the question is, would they actually not have their own children and adopt or would they choose to tale the risk.

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