The 'bitching' has more to do with not being seen as equal and not receiving the same benefits that legally married couples have.
it doesn't matter if some people don't view you as equals and it doesn't matter whether or not you can collect the same benefits, life is not fair and not everyone is treated equally. you shouldn't be getting married to collect benefits, if you love your partner then marry them, the benefits some other couples may receive should not matter as long as you and your partner are together. If you are an adult then you don't need to ask the government for permission. fuck what the government says, get married. you don't need any benefits, your benefit is being with your partner.
I can see the issue here, and maybe it's just my inner smartass but wouldn't he not actually be lying if it's just that they don't recognize his marriage as a marriage? don't know how the government would take that answer though, probably by sending in their jackbooted thugs just like any other time.
Sad story about that. A woman that my mom knew lived in New York with her partner and 2 kids, where they were married. The kids were from her partners' previous marriage, though, and were only under her name. They were travelling in North Carolina and the lady got really sick and ended up in the hospital. Her partner had a binder with their insurance and marriage forms with her because they always travel with it. However, the hospital would not accept them as family and my mother's friend died in that hospital, without saying goodbye to her family. That is MESSED UP shit.
yes it is fucked up, they should have just let her in regardless of whether she was family or not. some people are much closer to friends than their families anyway so I oppose only letting family members see the patient altogether.
I'm glad you replied, I have a question. If there were a country-wide vote on gay marriage, would you vote for it or against it? Against meaning they could have private ceremonies, For meaning they could share health benefits. Just want to see where you stand.
well I would say that I would rather not vote on it at all. as a Christian I personally do believe homosexuality is wrong. But as a Libertarian I don't believe I or anybody else should decide another person's morals. someone being a homosexual is their business, I do not agree with it but I will not interfere with their ability to practice their sexual preferences. it is not up to the government to decide what they are allowed to in their private lives.
We're talking health benefits here, not just calling your spouse husband or wife. Mike wants to visit Steve in the hospital, voting for this would let that happen. Liam wants to share custody for his daughter with Max, is that okay? I don't really want to start a bible war, those things are terrible, but homosexuality is stated as wrong in the same way that haircuts are in the bible, are you against haircuts?
let's not get into religion, those are my personal beliefs and that is just it, it has nothing to do with my decision I just stated it because you wished to know my stance on gay marriage. as I said before the government should not be involved in such things, and I will not give them reason to believe I think they have that authority. they do not have the authority to make that decision. for me to vote on such a thing would give them justification to believe they had that authority, and if everyone just didn't vote on it and told them they don't have the authority to make such a decision then they wouldn't be able to make it. but because we have Conservatives who would vote against it, and liberals who would vote for it, we will not in this time come to know what it means to be free from government control.
a genuine concern I suppose
Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but you can't just say it doesn't matter to other people and what they should do.
Yeah, because fighting for equality is just so overrated.
I know. Why do people bother? Who cares what the people are bitching for, I just don't wanna listen to them bitch. Cuz fuck that, it doesn't effect me.
That isn't the point! People obviously don't marry for marriage benefits (at least not very often), but if you marry someone you love of the same gender, and someone else marries someone they love of the opposite gender, it isn't fair that only the heterosexual couple gets the rights and benefits that come with being married. "The world isn't fair" is an excuse made by parents who can't explain to their kids where bad things come from. This, however, is entirely preventable.
well first of all life isn't fair. but this post doesn't have anything to do with equality, I am simply stating that you don't need the government's permission to do the things you want to do.
Lol no, I'm sorry but that doesn't really apply here. Children born with horrible, debilitating diseases is an example of life not being fair. Meeting the love of your life and finding out that he/she is actually your long lost sibling is an example of life not being fair.
Gays not being able to marry is not due to the fact that life isn't fair, it's due to the fact that some assholes can't separate church and state. And that's bullshit. If anybody in a "free" country feels wronged or suppressed then they have every right to make their voice heard. This is about equality, and I think it's absurd.
you're apparently not seeing what I'm saying here. gays can get married if they want, anywhere they want. it is just going to be a private ceremony that is not recognized by the government as a marriage. you are with the person you want to be with and as far as you are concerned you are married. the government does not have to recognize it as a marriage to make it a marriage. the government recognizes pizza as a vegetable, that does not make it a vegetable. and if what you want out of your marriage is benefits then you just need to reevaluate your situation.
No, I understand what you're saying. And you know what, to a certain extent I agree. I don't think any couple (gay or straight) needs anyone else to validate their relationship. If two people never want to get legally married, then in my eyes their relationship is every bit as important as that of a married couple. Relationships are what you make of them, I agree with you.
But that's where our agreement ends. The fact is, a pretend marriage isn't good enough for everyone. And there are lots of privileges and rights you earlier dismissed that go along with marriage.
It's the reasoning behind not allowing gay marriage that makes this such an issue. This is just one aspect of a much larger problem, being that gays are routinely discriminated against in many ways. Marriage is only one of them. Turning a blind eye to this and trivializing their plight only supports this behavior.
it is not a pretend marriage. this belief that a government must approve of a marriage in order for it to be real is ridiculous. and there shouldn't be any privileges or benefits given by government for any marriage whatsoever.
I am far from turning a blind eye, I am telling them to go get married regardless of whether or not the government says they are allowed to.
If you don't agree with the government giving benefits or certain privileges to married couples at all, then shouldn't you be arguing for the end of all benefits to straight and gay couples? Instead of supporting the absence of benefits and privileges to gay couples?
I do advocate for the end of all government involvement in marriage, but this post was directed to people who go on about how gays can't get married. they can indeed get married, and whether or not the government recognizes there marriage should not matter as long as they are with the person they love.
Regardless of what society thinks, it's still discrimination when the government denies rights to one group but gives them to others. Those people are called second-class citizens.
And I get that you believe marriage doesn't need to be validated by the government to be "genuine", but love isn't the only thing marriage is about anymore.
and what is it about then huh? benefits? tax reduction? if I loved someone I would marry them regardless of whether or not I get something extra from it. I don't need a fucking dowry, being married to the person I love is enough.
So you're saying that anyone, gay or straight, should be able to get married without the government telling them what that means, right? But if they give some people certain benefits, they should have to give those to everyone.
they shouldn't give anybody benefits
If what you want to do is get benefits from marriage, then yeah, you do.
if all you want out of your marriage is benefits then you can just marry someone of the opposite sex. now for the gays who say they are in love with there partner, they can go have their private ceremony to get married. and that should be enough because they recognize each other as their spouse. they can call it whatever they want be it marriage or butt buddies, but in there eyes they are married and that's all that matters.
Yes, but what about taxes, kids, survivorship, and countless other things? Why can't all people just recognize marriage by themselves? Why does one group have to settle for less because of how they were born if they are just as in love as any heterosexual couple?
because people are fucked up
So you're saying that people should settle for less rights just because other people are stupid?
no, I just answered your question. that is why, because people are fucked up. and homosexuals do not have any fewer rights than anyone else. marriage is not a right, it is a personal relationship that you have with someone else. getting benefits from the government is not a right it's a socialist system. this whole attitude comes from the sense of entitlement that people have in western society. they feel that they should have what other people have or better. the government is not supposed to go out of their way to treat everyone equally, they are supposed to just leave people the fuck alone and let them do as they wish.
Sadly, that isn't true. There is a large amount of government involvement in our lives, including marriage. Marriage isnt just a social matter, it is viewed as a legal matter by the government. And it may be a sense of entitlement to you, but most people don't appreciate being treated as second class citizens in any regard. Judging from one of your earlier comments, I would have thought you would be advocating this as well.
Yet another example of how easy it is for the privileged majority to undermine and/or ignore the suffering of a minority.
Wait until you are on the wrong side of some prejudice, and then come back and tell me that being equal in the eyes of the law doesn't matter.
privileged majority? you obviously don't know what my experiences are. I am black and grew up most of my life in a shitty neighborhood. I've experienced forms of prejudice unknown to homosexuals. how many times have you been followed by cops and security? I am not equal in the eyes of the law, in fact the law views me as being under a homosexual. nobody is equal and life is not fair. but that is not what this post is about, I'm telling people to stop asking the fucking government for permission and just do the shit.
I don't know where you live, but I'm pretty sure that in most Western countries (and others) discrimination based on race is not advocated by law. In fact, it's very discouraged. Maybe some people in your neighborhood find being black more offensive than being homosexual, but "in the eyes of the law" you are most certainly not under a homosexual. Corrupt cops are one thing, but legal rights are pretty clear about this.
not advocated officially of course, but anybody with half a brain is not blind to the racism that still exists today. I meant "the eye's of the law" as a way of referring to cops. and legal rights are also clear that a homosexual has the same rights as anybody else. don't try and tell me racism against blacks doesn't exist but prejudice against homosexuals does. I've lived the shit, and I know what happens. but I don' go around bitching about racism all the time, the only reason I brought it up was because you were somehow convinced that I have never experienced prejudice.
Regardless of where you stand in other aspects of your life, you are in the "priveleged majority" when it comes to gaining legal benefits from marriage.
I think I know where the problem in your argument is coming from. Marriage is a religious institution, not a secular (ie government) instution. So what you really mean is that people should stop complaining about churches not recognizing marriages and have a private service anyway. That statement I agree with.
The way people are reading this is that you are implying people should stop asking the government for equal legal rights, the kind that come with civil unions, etc. That I do not agree with.
Also, blacks have equal legal rights in this country. This does not mean that there is no prejudice, though. But right now, homosexuals don't have equal legal rights and they still suffer prejudice.
(And just for the record, I am not the Anon who replied.)
no, I mean what I say. the government should not be involved in anybody's marriage ceremonies religious or otherwise. non religious people in this day take to the idea of marriage just as well and there personal life is not any of the governments business either.
I mean that people should not believe they need the governments permission to get married gay or otherwise. if they wish to get married they should get married regardless of what the government says.
It would like me going back to the 50's and saying: "It doesn't matter if the government segregates blacks and whites in schools and in society. Black people should just go to their all black school and PRETEND they're not being treated as less worthy than whites because it's like basically the same thing? They really should stop bitching about racial inequality, honestly".
don't compare segregation to gay marriage being illegal, the circumstances are much different. in one you got blacks being beaten and arrested by government agents for drinking from the wrong water fountain, in the other the government has just said they will not legally recognize same sex marriage.
Yes, obviously the oppression and violence towards black was way more intense than towards gays. However, the basis behind the two are the same. The majority views the minority as below them, despite the fact that they cannot control what makes them the minority. People are segregating people over a factor that truly does not warrant separation. The oppressors feel power by keeping someone else down. We've all learned that it's wrong to take rights away just because of skin color, so why haven't we realized the same thing for sexual orientation?
A while ago, I watched a movie/documentary (for the life of me I can't remember what it's called) about the gay rights movement. Police officers would go to places where gays were known to hang out and trick them into revealing they were gay (kind of the same as an officer pretending to be a drug dealer) and would beat them up and arrest them. How is that any different?
and where and when did these beatings and arrests occur exactly? you can not be arrested for being gay anywhere in the U.S. currently, it is not illegal.
It was the US, New York I think. And I'm aware that it's not illegal now, but the documentary wasn't about recent events. It was probably around 40 years ago, but I could be off. I was only citing this to say that comparing homophobic discrimination to segregation was valid because the same kinds of actions occurred in the past.
commits suicide because of how dumb this post is
rejoices over your death
I enjoyed this post until I read the last phrase.
I imagine that many people feel the same. the reason I decided to refer to the bitching that people do is because gays can indeed get married anywhere they like. they just won't be recognized by the government as being married. and I am quite sure that you will not be arrested for it. what I am advocating here is to stop asking the government for permission and just do it. but I suppose as liberals most of these people believe in government control no matter how they word it.
But that's not what it's about. Of course gays can hold marriage ceremonies whenever and where ever they like. But that isn't what marriage is about, in the eyes of the law. Marriage comes with things like tax benefits and being able to share custody over children legally and seeing loved ones in the hospital, like someone mentioned above. Heterosexual couples are allowed to exercise and enjoy these things freely, but homosexual couples do not. And that's just discrimination.
See, I'm pretty young. Too young to get married, y'know? So this issue isn't such a big deal to me right now. I don't feel particularly discriminated against at this moment in time.
But if/when I do decide to get married, I want to be able to call her my wife, and I want to have all the legal standings of any other couple. To me, that shouldn't be too much to ask. In fact, it seems pretty damn reasonable to me. That's all I have to say on the matter.
well personally I don't think there should be any legal standings that come with marriage for anybody. the government shouldn't have anything to do with it regardless of circumstances. that is what I'm saying, tell the government to fuck off and do what you want to do.
I like you man. I feel your grasp of this concept is quite a bit ahead of the people who read something not completely all about pro gay rights and flipped out on you. Cootos for making your point well explained and understood to every single person on this post that had the same damn argument
To basically sum up what everyone is arguing here.
The problem homosexuals have is that there partnership is not seen equally by the government as heterosexual marriages. And the problem is that the government matters quite a bit. Married couples (Straight couples) have a right to things that homosexual partners do not.
It's not a fight for 'Marriage' it's a fight for the right to be seen as equal by the law.
I think being seen as equals when it comes to legality is really important to most people. I know what I'm fighting for, and I think that fighting for something is really the only way to get things done in this screwed-up word. I feel lucky that the people before me stood up and took part in the fight for women's suffrage or racial equality, and I've noticed this pattern of social and governmental reform throughout history when something isn't quite right. This fight is necessary in my eyes.
Oh, goodness! Why didn't anyone ever think of this before?
Then make a post saying that the government should not be involved in marriage at all, not one that implies gay couples are whining needlessly.
I'm sure plenty of people have, I'm not exactly the only person who doesn't think the government has the authority to rule someones life.
There was an article in the paper the other day. A man from New York and a Canadian man got married in Canada because New York had not legalized gay marriage at the time. Now, they want to move back to New York to live with the first man's family, but can not because the federal government will not recognize this man as a sponsor for his partner to live in this country. It's not as if they can just say "screw the government, I don't need to ask their permission to do what I want, so I'm going to live here anyway", so now they're pretty much stuck in Canada and the first man can only see his family once or twice a year.
they could have just gotten married in New York, that doesn't seem to occur to most people. if they had of then they wouldn't have this problem.
"New York had not legalized gay marriage at the time."
That was why they got married in Canada.