Many Americans make the Obamacare much worse than it really is, many countries have lived with free health care and they are still alive and well, amirite?

I know its not but its one step closer to universal health car

If I could become a doctor straight out of undergrad school, I wouldn't even look at the salary. I wouldn't care if it's average pay, because I would love my job. But the fact that the whole process wrings someone out thoroughly makes it a serious decision. No one would become a doctor if they got 1/4 their current salary simply because it's too much work for too little pay. Even the most passionate will be hesitant.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want a doctor who was in it for the salary if their work quality was just as good. Doctors would be lying if they said the money wasn't a factor.

Did I mention malpractice insurance? Oh yeah, up to 34k a year for surgeons. Not to mention income tax. Don't try to take away doctors' salary if you have no idea the hell a person goes through to get there. Most doctors have said they don't understand why people still want to become doctors, they would not allow their own children to become doctors, and would not choose the same path if they could do it over again. It's not that they're not passionate, it's just an insane amount of stress for one person.

We already do this though, when ever someone without healthcare goes into er, everyone else pays for them. So it's nothing new is what you don't realize. This allows people to get healthcare so they don't have to wait til a point of emergency to see the doctor

I know. That's the main part of the ACA that I really hate. I get that it helps the community as a whole, but as someone interested in the medical field, I can't help but feel doctors are getting jipped, what with their 10+ years of gruelling work and expenses. Plus it's difficult measuring "how good" a doctor's services are. It really puts the gov't between a doctor and their patient. But then again, I can't really think of a system that makes everyone happy.

Soldiers go through hell to become soldiers. They have to go through boot camp, and then they still have more to learn. It's grueling in a different way than medical school.

I don't want a doctor who only became a doctor just for the money. I want a doctor who wants to be a doctor. I'm not saying they should be paid minimum wage, but their current payment plan is ridiculous.

Your link is cut off, re link it.

Do you know how many people's lives depend on engineers? I have worked as a programmer for doctors creating apps to help them do their jobs. To aid them. Those programs aren't run of the mill programs, they are specialized programs written for the hospital and for those specific doctors. It's not something that just anyone can write and half the doctors haven't the slightest idea of how much work was put into it or how it works, all they care about it is working. And behind the scenes there are a lot of people who work on these programs, helping save lives...the technology the doctors use weren't created by them, they couldn't have gotten where they are on their own.

Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how much work it takes to become a doctor? It's probably one of the hardest jobs out there. 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, then you have residency/fellowship for 2+ years where you get only a few hours of sleep at best. That's only to become a physician. Most doctors start their careers for real at 30. Then they have to start digging into the average debt of 200k upon graduation plus severe exhaution. That's why most people specialize instead of becoming just a physician, whose avg salary is 172k yearly. As much as I love medicine, there's no way I'd give up my entire young adulthood and family prospects to gain a scarily high medical student suicide rate, insurmountable debt, and horrible stress if there wasn't a good salary compensation later on. It's horrifying what doctors have to through, they deserve every cent of their salaries.

Not to mention how necessary doctors are to society. We can live without lawyers and entrepreneurs, but we literally can't live without doctors.

Becoming a doctor is NOT a get-rich-quick scheme. I can guarantee anyone who becomes a doctor is genuine about saving lives because anyone who isn't would be weeded out within the first year.

The difference between a miner and a policeman is that a policeman is protecting people like you and I.

How many years of hell does a soldier have to go through? Plus, a soldier gets paid pretty well.

"How many years of hell does a soldier have to go through?"

You're kidding me right? You think being deployed to a war isn't hell? If a Marine wants any retirement benefits they have to serve for 20 years. It's not even comparable. After a doctor finishes his schooling and residency all he has to do is treat patients and keep them alive. A soldier has to worry about keeping himself alive, and his squad, while fighting against a bat shit crazy enemy.

I was never trying to belittle the task a soldier does. It's a different kind of hell, and should definitely be paid really well. The thing is they only have to work for 20 years and train for a few years and they're done. A doctor works well beyond that.

Then again, military school is free right? They don't have huge debt to need as desperately a high salary.

"All they do is treat patients and keep them alive."

Do you HONESTLY see nothing wrong with that statement?

It's the simplified version of what they do.

Absolutely, and that's why an engineer's salary isn't exactly what I'd consider low.

http://www.slate.com/articles/n...ay_doctor.html

A doctor's salary is low compared to Bill Gates', but a doctor's salary definitely isn't low. Engineers make nearly 100k a year, and that's pretty high.

Lol are you serious? How many Bill Gates are out there exactly? There are a lot of doctors out there who make more than engineers... if they were as smart as bill gates they might also make that much money... but they're not so they don't. Doctors make nearly 300k a year, now THAT is pretty high

Anon, tell me about the poor living conditions you live under.

What is it?

• unaware/uneducated non-American.

The only reason that exists is so people with preexisting conditions can get healthcare though.

It does a lot more than that though.

PPACA will also change doctor's pay. So instead of how many patients they treat, doctors will be paid by how well they treat patients. So not all doctors will make a shit ton of money, only the good ones will.

Doctors do rip people off though. End of life care is one of the biggest rip offs in the world

Where did I say any of that? You didn't recognize or respond to my point

Oh sorry, I didn't see your comment when I replied, it was meant to be a follow-up of my other comment.

I really don't think doctors rip you off because saving hundreds of people in your lifetime is a big deal and need to be paid accordingly. Something like a surgery is extremely complex and not just anyone can do it, you need the best of the best, who needs to be paid enough to want to do it.

By your logic police men and firemen need to be paid accordingly too. They put their lifes on the line everyday, but don't get paid nearly as much as doctors.

Yup. I believe policemen, firefighters, EMTs, etc should be paid more too, but not as much as doctors because not as much work/time goes into becoming a policeman.

Being a policeman or fireman is a lot more dangerous than being a doctor. They're always in danger of being shot or dying in a fire while doctors either sit in a office doing paperwork or treating patients.

Yes but doctors must spend years studing when police/fireman is around 3 years I think or less

Sure, being a miner is so much more dangerous than being a doctor. A doctor doesn't risk his life. But a miner shouldn't make more than a doctor simply because it doesn't take much to become a miner and a miner's work isn't very important. If risk accounted for pay, then a stunt double would make more than a lawyer.

Well in my world people choose what they want to become and they know the salary they become that because they don't care about the money they just want to help weather its risking their life or spending years studying

I've never in my life heard of someone who thought doctors were basically robbers; sucking you dry and giving you torture and death in return. If you prefer not to have a doctor "treat" you and prefer not to have a doctor leave you out to "die a slow and painful death out in the street", then by all means don't go see a doctor. If you ever get cancer or a gunshot wound, please just stay at home, then, if you're too proud to see a doctor. It'd do the world quite a lot of good.

I could understand someone thinking CEOs or socialites get overpaid, but doctors, really, for the services they do and the mindblowingly hellish lifestyle it takes to get there? It seems as a society we've really lost the value of intelligence. It's just human sacrifice and bloodshed we need now.

I'm liberal in nearly every sense of the word, but I can't possibly wrap my mind around the idea of paying someone who schools 4 years the same salary as someone who schools double that and more. Intelligence is the most valuable to society, not physical strength. That's why scientists, doctors, lawyers, college professors, and scholars need to be paid the most.

If I had options, I'd do it and a lot of people try it and die in the process. So there's your theory out the window there.

You act like doctors are the only people who do this... there are a lot of hard studies out there, whose jobs don't get easier... engineers? Do you know how much we make? Probably not a third of what doctors make, even with a masters degree. Are you saying our jobs are a walk in the park? I didn't say same salary... I never EVER said that. But I am saying doctors DO make too much money and you can't argue that. Unless you're going to tell me that engineering is an easy field.

Engineers make a little more than half what a physician makes, and about 1/3 what a surgeon makes. What it comes down to is that I don't think doctors make too much because they have to go through way more give up so much. I think medicine is one of the hardest careers out there, every moment of the career is spent on their feet and with full attention; there aren't any off-days. They are basically the line between life and death.

Plus, many family physicians with their own clinics are having major financial troubles, can't afford medicines, and are shutting down. Don't think that every doctor out there is rolling in money.

I'll keep your argument in mind though. I'll do some more research, because I'm probably extremely biased. But read this, http://healthwise-everythinghea...uch-money.html

Not even compared to a doctor's?

End of life care is optional.

Doctors don't make 300k a year, unless you specialize or you're a surgeon.

In Australia our doctors are paid just as well as in America even in the public heath system, (they make more if they are private) but the tuition fees are lower and they receive government assistance for it. Plus the working week is less hours and more holiday and sick time is given. Yes we do pay extra tax if we don't have our own insurance but that is what keeps our system working so well, and you only get taxed if you earn over a certain amount that you would be able to afford private heath insurance anyway so it is an intensive take the burden off the public system (which you are welcome to use regardless if you have private cover. Although that being said our miners can earn more than doctors...(I know one who earns $300k + a year) but that is because our economy is heavily reliant on the mining industry.

Lol, doctors will still make do much money you won't know what to do with it.

Of course I think being a policeman is very prestigious and an honorable job, and should be paid a lot more for their services. Does that mean I think they should be paid more than doctors, or even more than specialized surgeons? No, because like I said, it takes over a decade to become a legitimate doctor, and that decade is filled with tremendous stress, overwork, and insane sums of debt. Being a policeman or a soldier is wonderful, but it sure takes a lot less effort.

So many people have the ability to become a policeman or a soldier, you just need strength, ability, and bravery. Being a doctor is a scholarly job, you need to be really smart, intricate, and dedicated to become one.

I used to want to be a doctor. But med school is absolute hell, the debt is ridiculous, and the hours give you practically no time for family (especially during residency), and often patients have no respect for you.

Laws have to be put so residents can only work 80 hours a week, and they're not always followed. During this time doctors have gone through 8+ years of training for about 40k a year.

@spareseconds I don't really agree with any of that. The only section I really know of is end of life care. Which is a rip off

But it is one of the single greatest burdens on medicare and medicaid as well as regular healthcare when payed through traditional means

Spareseconds, my father is a doctor. I see first hand what he has to go through. Everything you've said is spot on.

Doctors currently make so much ripping off people

Lol how awesome this debate is... all a soldier has to do is work for 20 years... but a doctor oh a doctor has to have about 12 years of study, then maybe 5 years of practice in order to live in heaven. While a soldier of 20 years, will be living below the poverty line. LOL amazing argument. You can't pay everyone a high sum of money. That's a given, since we only have a limited amount of money. So we can take away some from doctors and give some to policemen, and firemen and teachers.

When people showed some of the things that doctors put on your bill, it's stuff like the plastic gloves they use to handle the utensils. And you get charged about 5 dollars or so? Which buys about 5 boxes full of those gloves? Seriously look it up. People over pay so hard and doctors suck the living money out of anyone they "treat" leaving them to die a slow and painful death out in the street....

Ppl who already have healthcare are freaking out about it because their insurance is going to get worse. It dosn't take a economist to realize that of you force insurance companies into plans where they cannot make a profit, then they are going to increase the Prices on all their other plans to pay for the nonprofitable ones. A new poll out shows 1/10 employers plan on scaling back on
Benefits to employees because now they have to pay for uninsured employees. All the new taxes in obamacare is sure to raise the price of healthcare, and the gov is now saying over 33 million will still be uninsured by 2019, but it's the thought that counts, right?