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Christians: You actually think gay marriage should be legal, amirite?

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I'm LDS (oh shit everyone - the crazies are out...) and I don't believe one bit that it is my business, or anyone else's business to tell anyone who they can and cannot marry. I believe that all people, whether they be average Joe's, religious leaders, or world leaders should have the same rights as long as they're willing to work hard in life. I believe that even religious leaders (LDS included) can make mistakes and misinterpret God's teachings. I'm pretty positive that God said multiple times in the Bible that only he is allowed to judge his people, so therefore I am going to stay the hell out of it and try my best to love everyone and be a good person. I believe anyone can be a good person if they really try, regardless of their opinions, sexual orientation, social status, or mental/physical abnormalities.

Love and loyalty bitches.

666 +8Reply

The bible doesn't condemn homosexuality because that is something that can't be controlled but rather it condemns the act itself.

@I love that spin religious people like to use to justify their hate

I don't look at gay people as something to hate, I look at it as this is their "test" so to speak and that they have to do the best they can. I personally have nothing against gay people and they can do whatever they want for all I care, however Im not alright with the homosexual acts, but it doesn't matter what I think because it's none of my business.
I also believe that God doesn't give you more then you can handle, which means that gay people are stronger then straight people because they have to deal with assholes like myself!

I don't really care.

Absolutely. I don't agree with homosexuality in itself, but that's because of my beliefs. Me telling other people they can't marry because of what I believe is forcing my religion on others, and that's not what I'm called to do as a Christian

Fanatics avatar Fanatic Yeah You Are 0Reply

Dude, Len, Shut up. Not everyone believes the same thing, and not everyone believes the bible word for word. Stop shoving your religion down everyone's throats.

coasterkids avatar coasterkid Yeah You Are -1Reply

I want to stop getting notifications for this post, but I really want to see how this argument ends.

rilaras avatar rilara Yeah You Are -1Reply

That may be so but you probably still think it's morally wrong. If you don't then you're disagreeing with an all knowing being, isn't that pretentious as fuck? Also a horrible idea considering how vengeful he is?

@I don't think its morally wrong either

So, aren't you disagreeing with a God you believe in even though he obviously knows better than you?

@Len So, aren't you disagreeing with a God you believe in even though he obviously knows better than you?

Not everyone sees God the same way you may see him. Maybe he's more open and less vengeful than the institution of religion would like you to believe.

@Shadi Not everyone sees God the same way you may see him. Maybe he's more open and less vengeful than the institution of...

"Oh I like these things but this doesn't sound right because I disagree with it, I'm sure God's different than the bible wants me to believe." Is that not simply cherry picking?

@Len "Oh I like these things but this doesn't sound right because I disagree with it, I'm sure God's different than the...

The Bible is a written observation from a collection of old perspectives. Seeing one interpretation of the scripture as the only possible interpretation is closed-minded, and I don't think saying one group of people's thoughts is superior to another group's is fair.

Besides, who's to say that people don't intentionally seek out references to affirm their own beliefs against homosexuality?

@kristin God isn't vengeful

Romans 12:19
English Standard Version (ESV)
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

That doesn't sound vengeful at all.
Not at all.

So with that in mind or the many other examples, that you should be able to find very easily by yourself if you have any intellectual curiousity or honesty, why do you think he's not vengeful?

@Len Romans 12:19 English Standard Version (ESV) 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God...

At the end of time God will judge everyone based on the life he or she lived. I think that quote is basically saying that no one else has the right to judge or to "get revenge" on someone because only God has that right.
however,
vengeful is defined as: seeking to harm someone in return for a perceived injury.
God doesn't seek to harm.

I'm sorry. this is a terrible rebuttal but I have an issue going on and I can't seem to come up with something convincing right now.

@kristin At the end of time God will judge everyone based on the life he or she lived. I think that quote is basically...

Oo, this gives an opportunity for my personal favourite.

Matthew 10:34
English Standard Version (ESV)
Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Where do you get the idea he doesn't seek to harm people?

Anyway, good luck with your issue whatever it may be.

@Len Oo, this gives an opportunity for my personal favourite. Matthew 10:34 English Standard Version (ESV) Do not...

I'm not a fundamentalist though. The Bible wasn't written by God so yes there can be mistakes or discrepencies

Anonymous +1Reply
@I'm not a fundamentalist though. The Bible wasn't written by God so yes there can be mistakes or discrepencies

If that's the case and you're willing to just cast aside hundreds of verses that you don't agree with or don't want to believe then why do you trust the things that you do agree with or want to believe? It's more likely that someone miswrote anything that explicitly says God is real than it is that they miswrote all the crazy shit God did or said.

You're just cherry picking and it's intellectually dishonest.

@Len If that's the case and you're willing to just cast aside hundreds of verses that you don't agree with or don't want...

Nope, because the more I get to know God the more I'm able to tell what is frfom Him and what isn't. My job isn't exactly to get everything right but to grow closer to Him and have a personal relationship with Him

Anonymous +5Reply
@Nope, because the more I get to know God the more I'm able to tell what is frfom Him and what isn't. My job isn't...

So why is it that other people of the same religion as you, perhaps even ones that read the same versions of the bible as you, think that God's telling them different things?
There are tons of such people.
Do you think God's sending mixed messages?
Do you think they're not as attuned to God as you are?
Do you think they're lying and you're not?

Or are you willing to admit that you have no reason to believe that God's guiding you, or them, in the way you claim he is and you're using the bible to bolster your beliefs with cherry-picked sections of it?
Of course aren't willing to admit that. Maybe you don't even realize it yet.

@I admit I may be wrong about things, and so may they

So you're not even confident in this so called guidance?
Don't you think it's a lot more likely that a part of you just thinks, "Surely God couldn't mean it like that. He's such a nice guy, right?" Because you realize if God actually did or thought a large portion of the things the bible said he did or thought that you'd probably think he's insane and that'd irk you out?
Or maybe you'd be willing to forgive him because he's done so much for you, creating life on earth and what not.

Do I deserve to beat up a homeless person if I let them living in my home? What if I have them food as well, hooked them up with a job and pretty much saved them when they were on the brink of death. Do I have the right to abuse them and do insane crap just because I saved them?

@Len So you're not even confident in this so called guidance? Don't you think it's a lot more likely that a part of you...

.____. I'm CONFIDENT but I'm not SECURE. And there are a lot of things in the Bible that are very difficult to swallow but I still believe
And. That is different because God knows what's best for us all the time, trust is a large part fo faith

Anonymous +1Reply
@____. I'm CONFIDENT but I'm not SECURE. And there are a lot of things in the Bible that are very difficult to...

Perhaps you shouldn't be so confident. Many others are confident in contradictory things, it really goes to show that confidence really is meaningless in this situation.

I knew what was best for that homeless guy. I had a plan for him but then he ate too much of my cereal so you see I had to beat him because I knew what was best for him and he defied me.

I know it may sound like I'm mocking you with the analogy but I'm try to make you see that your God is abusive, needlessly so. He seems far more willing to give up on trying to help people and punish them instead. He has limitless power and instead of using it to save a person's soul he would rather let them suffer. He could achieve the same ends he wants without so much suffering but he either isn't all powerful or he doesn't care.

@You seem uber confident too....way to be a hypocritical

I think you're not understanding properly- see, I'm saying that people within your religion who believe in the same god as you are just as confident as you in contradictory things and attribute this confidence to God given guidance as you do. There are no such people in my situation because I'm not religious, as such I'm not hypocritical in this situation, at least not due to my confidence.

I thought you'd have no issue understanding what I meant, but really it's understandable that you didn't.

You also have given no reason why your God is so needlessly abusive, which is odd.

@Len I think you're not understanding properly- see, I'm saying that people within your religion who believe in the same...

Because I tend to give shorter answers when typing on mobile since it's harder to type.
And as for a reason? I don't have one. As I've been saying, trust in God is the most important thing in faith. And so, no, I don't know why God seems to drag people through bad times. But I do know he has a reason for it.

Anonymous 0Reply
@Because I tend to give shorter answers when typing on mobile since it's harder to type. And as for a reason? I...

Don't you think the answer to such a question is a bit important? It should be important to you. For all you know he might let children starve to death because it's a really popular television show in Heaven.
Why are you a Christian?

@Len Don't you think the answer to such a question is a bit important? It should be important to you. For all you know...

Being a Christian means I know I don't have all the answers, but trust that God does.
I'm a Christian because God saved me from a lot of stuff

Anonymous +4Reply
@Len Oo, this gives an opportunity for my personal favourite. Matthew 10:34 English Standard Version (ESV) Do not...

Vereses can be interperted many different ways:
Matthew 10:34-37 MSG

"Don't think I've come to make life cozy. I've come to cut—make a sharp knife-cut between son and father, daughter and mother, bride and mother-in-law—cut through these cozy domestic arrangements and free you for God. Well-meaning family members can be your worst enemies. If you prefer father or mother over me, you don't deserve me. If you prefer son or daughter over me, you don't deserve me.
-Matthew 10:34 The Message

Anonymous +1Reply
@Vereses can be interperted many different ways: Matthew 10:34-37 MSG "Don't think I've come to make life cozy...

Yes, because obviously that is ever so sweet of God. "I want to tear your family apart, even if they aren't bad for you."

@Len Yes, because obviously that is ever so sweet of God. "I want to tear your family apart, even if they aren't bad...

I feel like you're taking a lot of quotes from the bible out of context. In the last quote you wrote, God's practically saying the great commandment. Love God above all things, with your heart, soul and mind.

I went to a catholic school and they had these retreats every year. And I went on one, and these people were talking about faith and all that stuff. And they asked us who we think we should base our foundation on. Almost everyone said the usual, you know, family, friends. But then they said what happens when family and friends are gone? What happens when your mom/dad is no longer here to take care of you, etc? You have to base your foundation on God because God will always be there. And that's why God is saying "if you prefer father or mother over me, you don't deserve me." Because that is part of our belief. To love God with everything we have.
I'm certainly not saying that's easy and I'm sure that you won't be suddenly convinced by this message but it seems to me that you have some disdain for God and/or the church. Just know that God isn't as hateful as you may believe.

@kristin I feel like you're taking a lot of quotes from the bible out of context. In the last quote you wrote, God's...

Or perhaps I'm simply interpreting them differently than you. You trend towards the idea that God is good. I am the counterweight to your belief, what better way to make you question your belief?
Well, there probably are better ways but this is the most fun.

There are thousands of children starving and suffering in this life, many will die before they can properly learn anything. They aren't given any opportunity to be happy in this life, yet there's an all powerful being who obviously could help them but decides not to. You think you should love someone who is needlessly abusive to humans, why? Because he's got a plan apparently. You don't know what it is but you're willing to trust him, so might admire that but I simply find it disturbing. I have disdain for him in some ways, if he's real he's a horrible thing. He's been the cause of countless deaths and even though he's ever so "loving" and such he doesn't help people, whatever the reason may be I most likely don't agree with it.
Really the way I see the world, even through my rose coloured glasses is rather bleak, it's more akin to a world where god laughs at us than loves us.

Perhaps God isn't as loving as you may believe.

@Len Or perhaps I'm simply interpreting them differently than you. You trend towards the idea that God is good. I am the...

I have no solution for the children starving and suffering. But I would like to say that the church is the biggest advocate for the suffering. Again, I went to a catholic school. And my school was constantly collecting money for the poor and buying presents for less fortunate children for christmas and donating clothes and food and visiting poor areas near us. I can't tell you why God lets some suffer and others prosper but I trust his purpose. A little thing called the leap of faith. I realize it isn't so easy to make the leap but it's a great feeling when you do.
Also, it always seems to be an argument against God that he causes violence. But I don't think God incites violence. Jesus said, 'love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.'
It is the fault of humans that there has been so much violence surrounding religion for so long.

Anyway, I truly disagree with you. I have thought about it a lot and I can't seem to put myself in your (and other people that think the way you do) mindset. I feel like you and I see the world so differently that sometimes it's hard for me to understand how we both exist. That doesn't make sense. But it's crazy to me.

@Len Or perhaps I'm simply interpreting them differently than you. You trend towards the idea that God is good. I am the...

You are a complete hypocrite. "All powerful being who obviously could help them but decides not to". But do you not have money to give? An able body to work and help people with? What do you do with it though? Complain on the Internet. But because you like quotes so much, I'll give you my favorite: "sometimes I want to ask G-d why He allows poverty, famine, and injustice in the world when He could do something about it, but I'm afraid He might just ask me the same question."
What the speaker is saying is that it is shallow and hypocritical of us to think that because G-d doesn't give everybody perfect lives, He is bad. Especially when we think so highly of ourselves all the while neglecting the fact that we, too, can help those people. I'm Jewish but I'm not extremely religious. Yet I understand that G-d is like a parent. When you screw up or you suffer or you go through a TERRIBLE time in your life, you can ask your parent for advice but they won't have a magical solution. He can't step in every time something bad happens. And yes, it's awful what happens to people out there but I don't see how you can blame G-d when there is something you could do but aren't doing.

@Falloutatthedisco You are a complete hypocrite. "All powerful being who obviously could help them but decides not to". But do you not...

I'm not a hypocrite for that reason, I do give to charities rather often, I'd say at least 5% of my income goes towards assorted charities that assist children in need.
I'm also an extremely generous person in general. I tip absurd amounts and handle some I my mother and father's bills. I've donated tons of money to my library as well. I'm no slouch when it comes to helping others.

And do you really think I'm claiming that people need perfect lives? I'm not. I just would like it if your all powerful God would give children a fighting chance.
If God was a good parent he'd make sure his kids have a chance. If God's suppose to be a parent he's a terrible parent. If someone didn't even give their kids food then you'd think they're a piece of shit, wouldn't you? Because that's your God if he's everyone's "parent".

A bit beside the point, he probably even sends a lot of those starving, suffering, illness ridden children to Hell. I bet he sheds a tear or two while he watches them burn for all eternity. Maybe. Probably not. But maybe.

@fuzala woah woah woah where did you get that last part from?

It's a probable assumption. They aren't just a bunch of saints in 3rd world countries and trust me I've been the subject of enough pick pocket attempts to know that people will be underhanded and sinful to find their next meal.

@Len It's a probable assumption. They aren't just a bunch of saints in 3rd world countries and trust me I've been the...

no human being is able to judge where another human being is going to end up in the afterlife

we don't have access to all the life experiences, intentions, all those little things about a person, and so many other factors

I acknowledge that you said probably
but still
that was shocking

being a thief is not a guarantee ticket to Hell

and last time I checked
people before the age of puberty are sinless
meaning they don't incur sin

the sinless don't go to Hell Len
they don't

@fuzala no human being is able to judge where another human being is going to end up in the afterlife we don't have access...

Perhaps not in your religion, others are certainly a lot less reasonable to say the least. Also the more I learn about your religion the more I like it. I mean I'm sure there's plenty I'd not like about it but I should consider reading the Qur'an some time. Do you know a site I could find a PDF or audio book of it?

@Len I'm not a hypocrite for that reason, I do give to charities rather often, I'd say at least 5% of my income goes...

Giving charities is nice and all but I can guarantee you go through your day not giving 2 shots about those kids until you have an opportunity to brag about it. It's not real charity if you do it for bragging rights. G-d cares but he cannot just but into the affairs of humans every 20 minutes. He wants us to be self-sufficient. He cannot just poof down and hand out food to every person. When you pray for something: G-d doesn't give it to you. He gives you an opportunity to get it yourself. Why would he send them to hell? Just because some pussy on the Internet thinks he knows everything doesn't mean you actually do. You have no reason to believe they go to hell. You just say it so you can come across as an even bigger douche than you actually are.

@Falloutatthedisco Giving charities is nice and all but I can guarantee you go through your day not giving 2 shots about those kids...

No, I do my best to not bring it up, in this case you claimed I didn't give to charity and it became reasonable for me to bring it up due to the argument, I'm not trying to brag, you're just wrong and I'm pointing it out. If I wanted to brag I'd not donate anonymously. I'd get certificates or something like that.

Your God doesn't give a small baby who's even abandoned the chance to live. Dumpster babies are a common thing, you've probably even seen that sort of thing in a local news paper. Well- probably not because what kind of person reads news papers now a days?

I don't think I know everything, I do know that many people who are starving to death in Africa probably are sinful and this would be sent to Hell under the interpretation or literal reading of many different religious texts. Perhaps not yours, but many.

I'm actually a pretty nice guy by the way, I just don't act nice during arguments. Why would I be like, "Oh, you have a conflicting opinion that sickens me to my stomach? Cool! I respect that."? I'm certainly not that mature.

@Len Yes, because obviously that is ever so sweet of God. "I want to tear your family apart, even if they aren't bad...

"Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven."
That's one of my favorite quotes.

Also, I read the context of the Matthew quote, and if you spend an extra minute to read all of chapter 10, I think you'll better understand the message.

@kristin "Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you because of me...

No I've always known the context, well not always but you get the idea. I'm just a deceptive prick. But really, even with the full context it's still disgusting.

@Len Oo, this gives an opportunity for my personal favourite. Matthew 10:34 English Standard Version (ESV) Do not...

To me that line sounds like God wants His followers to be self-reliant. It's not God's job to bring peace to people, but He wants to give them the courage or will power to defend themselves. If God really wanted to directly inflict harm, He'd just smite people at his own whim, but He gives us the choice of righteousness in the name of conviction.

Not that I'm Christian or have read the Bible. I just think you could see more than you are seeing.

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