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If an unwanted (or forced) abortion is murder, then so is a wanted (or unforced) one. Amirite?

If a forced abortion is murder, and can be tried as such (which it can), then this proves that the medical community, legal system, and government view the forced aborted fetus as a human being - otherwise there could not be a murder.
So, if the unborn fetus is life (which it clearly is), then regardless of WHO takes it, it is still the taking of or killing a life. The only difference is, we have "allowed" a woman to decide it is ok to kill it if SHE CHOOSES to do so. But in any other instance, it is murder!
Friends don't let friends......kill babies.
The clearest example of premeditated murder is in fact - abortion!
And please, do not tell me how compassionate and concerned you are about the human or world condition if you have no problem with abortion. If a person can not choose life first and foremost in the womb, then all other human issues and endeavors are pointless. Equality, racism, fairness - they mean nothing if a fetus is meaningless.

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What I don't get is a newly created human is the product of two people. If the pregnancy was unplanned or unwanted by one of the parents, why should the other be forced to financially support the child.

Anonymous +5Reply
@What I don't get is a newly created human is the product of two people. If the pregnancy was unplanned or unwanted...

BTW: I'm really not sure. I can't say either way, why it's a problem or not. I'd say my initial comment really has to take into consideration the circumstance of how the pregnancy occurred, then a proper judgment can be made as to who is going to raise the child.

e.g.

One could look at it that since it's the equal responsibility of both, naturally both partners should care for the child - not so much like a consequence but that's what happens when the sperm and egg meet. They both had sex knowing that there's a possibility of pregnancy, especially if they both consented to unprotected sex and didn't use other forms of birth control.

It's not like the woman collected sperm unwittingly to the man and forced it up her vagina (I hope). It's pretty sad and maybe pathetic to think about a parent disowning their own offspring.

Anonymous +1Reply

And please don't tell me how gross the picture is. It is just a picture of the real thing. Over a million a year......................

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@1948225

I know, I saw your lengthy moral dilemma. I replied to it.
Stopping unwanted pregnancies is a huge step in the right direction. And for those who just must kill a baby, allow it to live and let someone have it who will truly love and care for it.

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@1948302

I believe that is a good example of a Non sequitur.

PhilboydStudges avatar PhilboydStudge Yeah You Are +2Reply
@PhilboydStudge I believe that is a good example of a Non sequitur.

Why? Because you believe a woman's choice in one instance over rides the life of the human that she decides she does not want to keep in existence? Her "choice" does not negate the fact of life or humanity. But all those who are pro choice seem to think so. That is where the faulty logic rests.

@freespeechfreelancer Why? Because you believe a woman's choice in one instance over rides the life of the human that she decides she...

The non sequitur was aimed at JimiHendrix's reply, not your OP.

I think we are pretty much in agreement on this issue. The taking of an unborn human life is murder, and no justification (that I know of) can alter that fact.

PhilboydStudges avatar PhilboydStudge Yeah You Are 0Reply
@PhilboydStudge The non sequitur was aimed at JimiHendrix's reply, not your OP. I think we are pretty much in agreement on this...

Sorry. I thought it was addressed to my comment. I still have trouble with that sometimes. And I am not used to many comments agreeing with anything I say on here. I will check my pulse.

@1948302

Actually, many women believe that very thing! My OP was to point out that by it being murder in one example or case, then it had to be a human life that was murdered - otherwise murder did not occur. But you knew that and just tried to run in another direction.

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@1948603

So a fetus is not always a baby or human and a murder is not always a murder. Makes perfect sense!

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@1948744

I am happy for you. Wanted abortion is still murder and killing the unborn fetus. No unborn fetus wants to be murdered. All of them would like the same opportunity at life that you got. The only people speaking for choice and abortion are of course, people like you who were born. But your kind are so damn arrogant and selfish that you don't want to give every fetus the same opportunity you got. Hopefully you thank your mother that she "chose" to give life instead of take it.

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@1948909

Had she exercised her "right to choice," we would not be having this dialogue and you would not be respecting anything.

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@1949549

Just the fact that you could think this thought long enough to put it into words is worthy of a heart. Please let me know when you publish your first book, want an autographed copy.

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@1949439

This is one dialogue that I am thoroughly enjoying just sitting back and watching develop. Great discussion! For me, THIS is what Amirite is all about and should be. Seeing people air their ideas in civility and wit - priceless! Keep up the great comments.

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@1949516

I advocate getting "fixed." We spay our female pets, and women who don't want children should get fixed so they can't have them. Then there would be no issue whatsoever and they are being completely responsible. They could sleep around 24/7 with no accidents or surprises.

@1948965

The biggest one they refuse to admit is it has a heartbeat. An independent heartbeat proves it is pumping blood throughout its own body. And of course a heartbeat is necessary for life to exist. No heartbeat, no life.

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@1949204

You know, I have heard the argument that a human embryo is nothing more than a clump of cells, or a parasite. This is a very offensive suggestion to many, but that is besides the point.

My argument would be that if we are using the ability of a human to survive without assistance, then it would follow that we would be within our rights to kill people in hospitals. And I'm not talking about just unplugging their machines. I'm talking about smothering them with pillows while they wrestle to continue living.

The fact that the embryo is within another human's body, though, does really complicate the matter for me. If I were a woman, how would I feel about other people wanting to tell me what I can and can't do with my body? I totally get that.

So at what point are your sensibilities such that you feel the unborn child should be protected by the law? I believe most people would say the law should protect a baby sometime before it is born. By this, they are saying that the rights of one human being to live supersede another human being's right to do whatever they want to do to their own body.

Me personally? I want to error on the side of a human being's right to live, but at what point in the fetus' development that happen I am not certain of. It's a very difficult issue.

PhilboydStudges avatar PhilboydStudge Yeah You Are 0Reply
@PhilboydStudge You know, I have heard the argument that a human embryo is nothing more than a clump of cells, or a parasite. This...

what is it with you ex-alterboys and your "sanctity of life" ethics. What happened to kill them all and let god sort them out?

@freespeechfreelancer Now now Vic....we are not all ex alter boys! You just can't resist can you?

So true. My level of self control is very suspect at times. btw Philbodystudge and I are drinking buddies in RL.

@VicZinc Indeed. Down right scary sometimes.

I am sure of that. If and when I drink it is alone. I have no true buddies where I live because of the culture difference and I knew no one when we moved here. Since my whole focus has been work and trying to get work, I don't have time to socialize.

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@1949518

So at what point along in a pregnancy do you feel an unborn child should be protected by the law?

PhilboydStudges avatar PhilboydStudge Yeah You Are 0Reply
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@1949533

Well at least you're consistent.

I have a retort for each of your points above, but I do not see a point in arguing any further when neither one of us seems likely to change our opinion. Still, I appreciate your time.

PhilboydStudges avatar PhilboydStudge Yeah You Are 0Reply
@1949518

Coat hanger, scalpel, suction, salting - what is safe? How do you safely destroy a human life?

@1948742

So basically, we should go ahead and abort the growing young animals inside of their mothers since none of them can live apart from the developing months or weeks required to bring them to their birthing. Every young developing life requires sustenance and a chance to reach the point where it can be on its own. And while we are at it, let's destroy all unhatched eggs of those species as well. If that egg can't hatch itself without its mother sitting on it and bringing it to the point of hatching, oh well. It wasn't and isn't life.
Newborn babies can't live on their own either. Set them on a bed or table and tell them to survive, and they will lay there and die. For a so called "scientist," your logic and reasoning have taken a steep turn for the worse. When you can spout such incredible nonsense, your comments are no longer worthy of status.

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@1948919

Hate to say it, but you are full of it! I won't budge on this one. A fetus is a human life. If we can kill it, then we can kill you or anyone else. "Like an appendix or something" - I have heard everything now!

@1948720

So is yours!

If unwanted (forced) taxation is a theft, then so is wanted (unforced) tithing.

@VicZinc If unwanted (forced) taxation is a theft, then so is wanted (unforced) tithing.

You are really reaching! How many atheists know what tithing even is? You sure enjoy playing with religion and religious themes.

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@1949525

Handing over my dead fetus voluntarily (regardless of the reason behind it) is far different than handing over my dead fetus with a gun to my face.

The difference is that the charge for a forced abortion is not murder> Therefore, it cannot be considered murder. It is merely infringing upon the rights of the woman.

Anonymous 0Reply

exactly
can't have it both ways

it's unethical

fuzalas avatar fuzala Yeah You Are 0Reply
@fuzala exactly can't have it both ways it's unethical

If forcing a woman to have sex is rape, than all sex is rape?

What are you talking about? This isn't logic, it is equivocation.

@VicZinc If forcing a woman to have sex is rape, than all sex is rape? What are you talking about? This isn't logic, it is...

that's a bad comparison because it doesn't take into account a 3rd entity

also
the mother is not the one being terminated
if she was the one being terminated (suicide)
versus against her will (murder)
then, you could make that comparison that you did

if the mother terminates
or a stranger terminates against her will
an entity was terminated either way

the termination has to be called one thing
or else it's inconsistent

fuzalas avatar fuzala Yeah You Are 0Reply
@fuzala that's a bad comparison because it doesn't take into account a 3rd entity also the mother is not the one being...

Holding down a person and shaving their head is assault, therefore all haircuts are assaults.

What is this "entity" you are referring to? Now you are begging the question!

@VicZinc Holding down a person and shaving their head is assault, therefore all haircuts are assaults. What is this...

the entity is the fetus

since technically, she is not a baby yet, I call her an entity or fetus (because we were all female at one point)

your haircut example has the same issue as the rape comparison

it doesn't include the 3rd entity (the fetus)

fuzalas avatar fuzala Yeah You Are 0Reply
@fuzala the entity is the fetus since technically, she is not a baby yet, I call her an entity or fetus (because we were...

No. You cannot assume a fetus is a person and then say therefore it is a person.

The question is "is that tissue and entity".
I can say my hair is a "entity".

You are begging the question. The very question is "is it an entity?" Calling it one doesn't make it one.

@VicZinc No. You cannot assume a fetus is a person and then say therefore it is a person. The question is "is that tissue...

anything that can be called "it" is an entity

but your hair doesn't grow to separate from you and become another "you"

at least not in nature

and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that a fetus is being terminated during in abortion no matter who sanctions it

there's no way around that

fuzalas avatar fuzala Yeah You Are 0Reply
@fuzala anything that can be called "it" is an entity but your hair doesn't grow to separate from you and become...

Are you saying my hair is not being terminated?

Are you saying that because a fetus has the potential to grow into a person it will always grow into a person?

I think most people would agree that the "pregnancy" is being terminated. The question is: "is the fetus being terminated."

Again you are begging the question by assert that the fetus is being terminated.

@VicZinc Are you saying my hair is not being terminated? Are you saying that because a fetus has the potential to grow...

hair will never (in nature) become another human
a fetus can grow and be born

it happens all the time

fuzalas avatar fuzala Yeah You Are 0Reply
@fuzala hair will never (in nature) become another human a fetus can grow and be born it happens all the time

It does happen sometimes. Some scientist believe that as many as 1/2 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, often within hours of fertilization. So the statistic "all the time" seems a stretch.

But that still does not make a fetus a person. Nor does it make an elective abortion a murder.

However a forced abortion is a crime. Is it a murder? I don't know, is it a crime, most likely.

The image on this post refers to the aborted fetus as a "citizen". Calling it a citizen does not make it a citizen.

@VicZinc It does happen sometimes. Some scientist believe that as many as 1/2 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, often...

it does happen all the time
half of them ending in miscarriage doesn't change that

and even if it did
still a significantly higher chance than your hair does

fuzalas avatar fuzala Yeah You Are 0Reply
@VicZinc It does happen sometimes. Some scientist believe that as many as 1/2 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, often...

also
the severity of the crime or whether it is murder may depend on the age of the fetus

fuzalas avatar fuzala Yeah You Are 0Reply
@fuzala also the severity of the crime or whether it is murder may depend on the age of the fetus

Indeed it may. It may depend on a lot of things.

In fact in the USA, as of now, it is clearly not a crime for a woman to electively abort her fetus within certain time limits.

This is definitionally a "fact". Therefor OP is incorrect from a statutory perspective (and you, for agreeing with him are also wrong from that perspective.)

If you define murder as a legal term OP is wrong. However the legal status is not equal to the moral status.

If you define murder in some other way than the debate changes.

If you want to define "all the time" as having a meaning other than ALL = EVERY and TIME = INSTANCE then I guess that is also another discussion.

If by "all the time" you mean "often" than I agree it does happen often, as long as
certain biological processes complete and
the woman does not choose to abort
then a new and separate person will emerge from her body.

But to argue that the fetus has personhood prior to the mother deciding it does is to beg the question. Which is basically,
can a woman choose to want her fetus to be "a person" or "not a person." Is that her choice?

@VicZinc Indeed it may. It may depend on a lot of things. In fact in the USA, as of now, it is clearly not a crime for a...

it ends up being her choice for the abortion
but it's not her choice to decide when a fetus reaches baby status

that's why abortion becomes illegal when fetus reaches a certain age

on another note
with the invention of plan b
abortion should become nearly obsolete

fuzalas avatar fuzala Yeah You Are 0Reply
@fuzala it ends up being her choice for the abortion but it's not her choice to decide when a fetus reaches baby...

I get what you are saying

Pregnant|Choice|Baby
=====================
No........|No.....|No
Yes.......|NotTry|No
Yes.......|Try.....|Maybe

It is not her choice to have a baby but it her choice to try letting it grow in her. It is also her choice not to try.

And the age of the fetus is arbitrary by law and from my moral perspective makes not difference. It is a legal issue not a moral one.

and I doubt plan b will eliminate abortions

and I still don't get why anyone except the pregnant woman needs to be involved in the decision.

@VicZinc I get what you are...

I said nearly obsolete

fuzalas avatar fuzala Yeah You Are 0Reply
@VicZinc I get what you are...

On your last statement - the whole issue has been politicized like so many others. If we were allowed to resolve our own issues without governmental intervention, then things would look much different in society. But THE PEOPLE seem to have an incessant need to run to PAPA GOV to solve and resolve every whim they face.
I don't get why the government is now regularly involved in pregnancies, gender, and our sex lives and education - but they obviously see a great need and compulsion to do so. The idea that "daddy knows best" is the begging question and stretch.

This thread is taking on a LIFE of its own! Since it now has a hearbeat, limbs, and can feel - I vote that we abort immediately! Nothing like ending a life in progress.

Anonymous