Not every hobby needs to be "accessible" to everyone… and that's okay. amirite?

Interesting, I also went for the 40k example. Except I went in with elements of it have become way more accessible (youtube as a resource, cheap alternatives to hobby gear, kill team etc). But the game is still the game. Ie meta chasing is still resource intensive, full game still exists etc. Just goes to show how much nuance is in it!

by Anonymous 2 months ago

D&D is an interesting one, because there's clearly a market for more complicated ttrpgs, but there's also clearly a market for less complicated ttrpgs as well.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

5e, is, honestly, peak functionally crappy design. Too rules heavy to be rules light and too rules light to be rules heavy.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

This is also such a valuable point! Thank you. I actually wanted to put something for when the "barrier" is knowledge, but none of my examples were quite right. I think somewhat related is when you have something that is super accessible at beginner levels, but then it's almost impossible to find spaces for intermediate and advanced levels because there's too much emphasis on being welcoming above all else. Like being in a book club where it's rude to spend the time discussing the ending because Cathy only read the first chapter and feels left out... Okay, that's fine, and we can talk about that for a bit, but where do I go to discuss the whole book?

by Fit_Discipline6872 2 months ago

I read this in such a way that you are at competitive knitting tournaments. I know they're out there.

by vwisoky 2 months ago

Those Fender lessons are pretty good too.

by Huge-Rabbit-9250 2 months ago

Fender has so much of my moeny

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Making a hobby more accessible doesn't take a single thing away from any given individual. One person wants to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a hobby and someone else wants to buy an extremely cheap version of that hobby for far less neither person is negatively affected by the other

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Youtube tutorials are just another form of lecture. Most labor require a set number of tools that could be put into one all encompassing package. I'm not really sure this opinion is coming from a reasonable or informed place, i don't imagine its popular for that though lol. Thems the rules I guess, grats.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

It's a little difficult to get on board with the opinion when zero examples were provided and I dare say zero examples can be found

by Anonymous 2 months ago

An "meh" example could be that a lot of "hardcore" video games get simplified sequels in order to sell to more people. Splinter Cell for example was on the hardcore side up until after chaos theory but then the stealth element got hyper simplified and more and more action got added to make it more appealing to a bigger audience.

by toyuriah 2 months ago

Pretty pedestrian level gatekeeping. Hard to feel special with your quirky unique hobby when it's not kept out of reach of most people. Either it was artificially expensive or learning materials were kept scarce. Sounds at least like the actual skill and artistry required is not very high. People that love a hobby want to share it and improve it. People that love themselves want it kept for themselves.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

People that love a hobby want to share it and improve it. People that love themselves want it kept for themselves. Oooh, I'm borrowing this!

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Reads a bit like someone who was able to make their hobby a side hustle, but it mainstreamed and the well dried up.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Yeah I'm sick of all the riff-raff bringing down the tone at polo tournaments and sailing regattas.

by calebwiegand 2 months ago

Precisely! If I see one more uncouth troglodyte wander the deck in Hey Dudes and an Old Navy Polo I'll alert security. Now bring me another dark and stormy, lovey, I've had quite the day

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Ugh. Don't you just hate it when plebes refer to their 55-foot boats as yachts? They don't even have people to drive their own boats for them!

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I bet they probably have just two chefs and measly 25 person crew. Dock at the economy wharf in Monte Carlo too. Pheasants

by Select-Thought3067 2 months ago

"tugs down on Patagonia vest"

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Lol. I'm such a pleb I couldn't tell you what Hey Dudes are. I'm going to take a stab at toff shoes?

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Sailing gets a bad reputation because of the clubs in rich areas. But often there's middle class clubs that are just a shack and some docks. Show up and tell them you want to crew and they'll help find you a spot. You get to work ropes and act as ballast.

by Altruistic_Falcon467 2 months ago

Lmao my grandfather always had a blasty blast and all he had was a 6 foot long rubber boat with a tiny engine.

by Friendly-Anywhere785 2 months ago

The worst are the ones who show up like "tell me all about your hobby and how I can monetize it without doing any work" 👁️👄👁️

by Full-Mirror4592 2 months ago

Easy. Buy up everything rare until its so rare that it costs ridiculous prices for people who actually enjoys the hobby. Whales are a hobbyist's worst nightmare

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Who is toxic about board games

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Funny enough, sailing can be one of the more affordable hobbies if you do it through a club.

by isaiahanderson 2 months ago

It's nice that you let him pretend.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Lol. Keep up the good fight.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

How about any hobbies that require shared use of a common good where lack of knowledge and courtesy can have major negative impacts on the die hard users. That can be as simple as mountain biking on community trails right after a rainstorm and destroying it. Or backcountry anything where someone unprepared needs to be rescued and results in backlash against the community and closures of areas. Not saying there always needs to be a big financial barrier. But especially in hobbies with real risk i dont love the idea that watching a 5min youtube video puts you in the same group as someone whos spent a lifetime of learning and contribution. Lots of high risk hobbies have a background almost like an apprenticeship where you learn from another skilled hobbiest. Almost all those have good paid training courses if you need a way to break in.

by Wolffdanyka 2 months ago

Tangential to OP, a different presentation of the problem: Camp1: a hobby you do with others like book club or softball etc. In that case I'd want more people involved because part of the joy is sharing it with others. This bypasses a common problem, possibly ignoring the problems that come with mass adoption by staying vague, so I'll explain how something ordinary still falls prey to it. People often think there's a universal agreement about what 'softball' is, that it is immutable, presuming that anyone joining the group is of pure intent and is guaranteed to just want participation. When others want to start to change the rules of softball, it begins to become a problem, especially when enough of them join that they overwhelm the original fans. They could have started their own XSoftballX group, but they don't. They want to colonize the Softball group instead. This colonization happens all too frequently in hobbies.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Book club is another great example. I'm in one, sometimes people will show up who didn't read the book. Why are you here? We are here to talk about the book, if you didn't read it you cant really contribute anything. I'm with OP. I feel like a lot of people treat hobbies as a thing to do in the background while you chat. But if you're someone who actually likes the hobby that ruins it. I don't want my group ride to have some dude on a cruiser who can't keep up and just wants to talk about his week. I don't want someone to show up to a board game night, who doesn't like board games and just wants to hang out and drink beers.

by leola54 2 months ago

That reminds me of our office bowling team. I'm an OK bowler but there were a few people who really wanted to join the league and have a team. I wasn't into that much so my husband and I signed on to be alternates so we could cover when the team was short bowlers. Believe me when I tell you that I may have been the only person that played every single week the whole season because EVERY SINGLE WEEK enough regular members flaked that they needed (one and often two) alternates. When they were rallying to field a team for the next season, I was no thank you, I'm out.

by TemporaryInside 2 months ago

Im not sure what you're trying to say here because first you say it's an exception but then you describe how gate keeping makes the hobby worse for you.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

How old are you? Cliche-edgy-loner-rogue-based-on-an-anime-character players have literally always existed since the dawn of DnD (ok, maybe not the anime part). I have been playing since the 90s in a country with a very very small community, and we had them back then too.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

lol you said hibbies

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Can you give an example?

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Homebrewing is the way that it used to exclusively be made.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Cave diving

by Agreeable-Log 2 months ago

The one hobby that actually needs to be less accessible.

by Miles14 2 months ago

Unless you're being forced to do it with a group of inexperienced people at gunpoint I don't see how this could ever possibly affect you

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Warhammer 40k (actually playing the game that is, not just reading the books and whatnot)

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Well they warn you ahead of time 40k is starting price tag

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Lmao true

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Warhammer 401k

by Anonymous 2 months ago

The amount of money I have saved by buying a printer is ridiculous. I bought about 6-7k points for CSM. I have about 4k in points and have bought less than 500 points for my salamanders. No one bats an eye at RTT or GT's.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I say this every time people tout 3d printers as being cheaper. I mean they might be, but the entry level for Warhammer is lower than the entry for 3d printing. Buying a decent resin printer isn't going to cost less than a starter kit for Warhammer. With Combat Patrol and Spearhead, you can easily play for cheaper than a printer. But people say that 4k point games are their only option, which might be true... But that's not the fault of GW. It's like complaining that you're trying to get into racecar driving and F1 costs too much. The REAL benefit of a 3d printer is reducing the size of everything 2.5 times and using cm instead of inches so I can play tiny games of the Old World on my kitchen table.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Oh 100% but I wouldn't have the ridiculous sized army I now have without a printer.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Honestly HATE putting vehicles together. I'm enjoying taking my time putting a knight together though.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

It still boggles my mind how expensive Warhammer kits are considering that the buyer has to do all of the actual time consuming work 😅

by Mother_Swan 2 months ago

Same for yarn and fancy pens. Can't believe they make me pay so much and then make me actually do the hobby! Last time I looked at how expensive paint was and then the store owner had the audacity to tell me that I had to paint the picture too!

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Ahhhh why don't people learn that D&D is just one facet of the whole ttrpg hobby. It's not even a particularly well designed facet. Pathfinder 2e is much more balanced and doesn't put all the onus on the GM to make snap shot decisions all the time like 5e does because it usually has rules for how things work. Or you could play mech ttrpg with LANCER. Or Sci fi with Starfinder. Cyberpunk RED. Traveller. Mutants and Masterminds for some of the freest character creation ever. Want LESS rules more role-playing? There's a million-and-one rules lite ttrpgs out there that can work in any scenario. JUST BRANCH OUT. LEAVE D&D BEHIND YOU HAVE OUTGROWN IT!

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Except making the game more accessible through 3D printing or cheaper materials does not in any way affect the player that buys into the most expensive version of that game.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

What you're complaining about is the commercialization of your hobby. Not it's accessibility.

by Odd_Suspect_6000 2 months ago

And nailing 2x4s will magically generate this knowledge? Not everyone has some teacher in their family or friends and if you don't feel like helping then just say nothing and let the nice people step in.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

You've clearly never received a letter which wasn't legible!

by deron61 2 months ago

Skiing as an example. It's a sport/hobby for people with money, as it costs hundreds/thousands seasonally. However, this loser can kick rocks, because pricing people out of hobbies that don't need to be excessively expensive is pretentious and lame.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Get this, OP's example was calligraphy…

by Anonymous 2 months ago

that sounds like a text book example of hobby you can start doing for 0 dollars.

by PackageBeneficial 2 months ago

And if you do it badly, it affects absolutely no one. JFC 🤦🏻‍♀️

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Um you must study calligraphy at my studio in Japan for three years to get the Curly Wurly Calligraphy TM certificate to be a CERTIFIED member of the calligraphy community.

by Pfefferwilber 2 months ago

Well skiing price really depends were you live, i live in canada, skiing wasn't a rich people sports till more recently, mostly because they raised their price to ridiculous amounts these days

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I grew up low income in a high skiing area and the most expensive part is affording a pass for the mountain, and some places have cheap hills even if they aren't the most exciting. if you're in an area where it's common you can get used stuff for cheap, just can't be afraid to have 10-15 year old equipment. One of the main hills I went to as a kid still has tickets for two seasons in a row for like $100 total if you buy on a certain day

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I'm torn on this one, the main reason skiing/snowboarding is so expensive because of the lift tickets, which have become exorbitantly expensive due to the sheer number of people getting into the sport, and the short winters. Secondhand gear is very easy to obtain if you work an average full-time job. The demand is pricing the average person out while simultaneously making the sport less enjoyable, but increasing the price even more is the only thing that will reduce the crowds.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

This is the reason that sports which depend on scarce natural geography (surfing, skiing, climbing) breed the most gatekeepery insufferable enthusiasts

by Camilla65 2 months ago

I grew up in Southern California, I was on a ski team, and I now live in Boulder Colorado where basically everyone climbs. I can easily say skiers are by far the most insufferable and it's not even close.

by Pagacbrenden 2 months ago

You can get a basic startup kit from Delphi Glass, with everything you need to do simple projects (aside from a way to display it, like rings/chains/frames) for $430. Precut project kits from Diamond Tech are $100 with a soldering iron or $25 without (if you happen to already have one).

by PresentationReal177 2 months ago

i am only familiar with gunpla and girlpla, so my view might be bias, but I feel like most of the cost is R&D for designing the kit. So, even tho It's overprices from material point of view, it's the design and the engineering that make it, at least not as overpriced.

by Potential_Local_2042 2 months ago

One of my hobbies is disc golf; for $5 you can get a used disc and show up to the course as almost zero have entry fees. One of my biggest pet peeves is people who ignore every other play group out there and who litter on the course. Playing loud music (Enough to hear a hole away), chucking their discs Willy nilly, not understanding when others are either still on a hole or causing backups for playing too slowly.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

That's not a problem of the sport being affordable it's a problem of the owner of the course not enforcing whatever rules or regulations they have

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I see less gatekeeping from people IN hobbies than I do people complaining that something isn't accessible/affordable enough. I've not even been knitting a year, and I've seen people complain that a YouTube sweater tutorial only covers one size and you had to buy the written pattern for the other sizes, or the pattern is written out and not charted, or charted and not written out. It's like there is a certain type of person who expects everything to be accessible to everyone at all times.

by strackekristian 2 months ago

Maybe something like Blacksmithing? Idk I'm really trying to see where OP is coming from and it's tough. I don't think this opinion is as much unpopular as it is stupid.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

It's so discouraging when I'm trying to have a conversation about the gardening strategies I use in different abodes in my house collection when some peasant pipes up about a potted plant in their apartment.

by Christdeckow 2 months ago

You should make that a hobby!

by cristianleannon 2 months ago

No, only true gate keepers can join

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I agree with you except for one tiny setting. Warhammer 40k, please GW, lower the prices, i don't want to go into debt to afford more than a combat patrol

by dhammes 2 months ago

I can play football with my mates in the park and it doesn't take away from Messi's genius. This is such a bad take from you

by makenzie36 2 months ago

they said "not every hobby" meaning some hobbies are exempt such as football and other easy to access hobbies

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Making a hobby accessible is ALWAYS good. You don't have to dumb it down to make it accessible, and growing a hobby base is great. The idea that having more people able to do a hobby reduces it's 'soul' or 'depth' is an insane thing to say.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Dumb exemple but souls games gained alot of critique due to it not being accessible (it's too hard for some)

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I disagree. I think camping, surfing, and rock climbing have all suffered for accessibility. There is limited space. People ruining shared spaces sucks.

by oharatheresa 2 months ago

OP doesn't want the haggard peasantry to cheapen their hobbies

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I think it's more determined on what level you are with the hobby. If you're going to a rock gym like my friends do and sometimes a small mt, I don't see an issue. But if you're taking that level of skill and equipment to a more populated site with people who take the hobbie more seriouslly? Yes I see you as the problem.

by Briakuvalis 2 months ago

There's a big difference between not being accessible and gatekeeping. If something can be dumbed down in a youtube tutorial so people can get into the hobby? That's amazing, it makes things more accessible and more people can get into the hobby! Some hobbies can't be accessible to everyone though, because of their location or they cant afford the equipment or lifestyles. But... not letting people do something basic because you want to feel special? Yeah that's gatekeeping which is just stupid.

by Federal-Whereas7880 2 months ago

It's about reducing the barrier for entry. Let people have a chance to try things - it doesn't mean they'll be good at it. Being good at the hobby requires practice and skill (and maybe more money), but there's no harm in making it more accessible to people. Maybe they'll like it and go all-in, maybe not; but they won't find out until they try and they won't try if there are high costs associated with beginner level.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Let rare skills stay rare — that's part of their value. Effectively there aren't any rare skills, there are just too many people out there for any real rarity. This is why so few people can make money making art, singing, acting, playing an instrument. There are far more people who can do those things than there is a market willing to pay for them. Most people successful in those 'skills' are just get lucky.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I probably wouldn't want to participate in a hobby with you anyway!

by ApprehensiveChef1868 2 months ago

I'm a bit of a house plant hobbyist. I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see plants for sale, going for 15-30$, when a few years ago these plants would have been selling for hundreds or even thousands of dollars. I do love that everyone can get involved.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

My one kid is a competitive rock climber. As in traveling to other provinces for competitions. Guess what? She got her start at one of those birthday party fun climbing gyms - with the light up walls and silly themes. As someone else here said "before the skill and determination, comes the training wheels."

by Anonymous 2 months ago

It seems like you have a specific hobby in mind. I'm all for a healthy level of gatekeeping within a community but own up to it here. What hobby are you talking about?

by Electrical-Canary662 2 months ago

OH NO SOMEONE CAN BUY A CALLIGRAPHY KIT ON AMAZON AND START PRACTCING... it devalues my $500 pen and $2500 collection of boutique inks... The $500 pen and $250 ink exists because people can enter the hobby, get hooked, and buy better gear...

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Who cares? If you can't enjoy your hobby because other (less experienced) people might be trying their hand at it, this says a lot about you.

by Geovannigerlach 2 months ago

I disagree with the affordability part. Skateboarding for example isn't a widely accessible hobby because it requires time, effort, and some inherent skill to keep your teeth from being violently acquainted with the asphalt, and that's perfectly fine. Showing off your rare and hard-earned skill is part of the fun. If however skateboarding wasn't widely accessible because even an entry level board cost like $7000, then it'd just be a paywall to the hobby, not an inherent part of it that added to the experience in any way, other than bragging you can afford it.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

My hobby is creating art pieces on Teslas, it is very expensive and not for everyone

by Whole_Willingness 2 months ago

I play guitar. It's a fairly accessible hobby. It's the most versatile instrument there is. But no matter how much or little one spends, it doesn't make them good at it. So I think it depends on the hobby. Personally I do think certain hobbies should be accessible, like boating as other people have said. I've sailed a sailboat. I got lucky as I don't come from a sailboat owing family. But it's not that hard and not bad for the environment, it's just expensive and gate kept.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

The soul you preach about in hobbies comes from the mastery of it not money or accessibility.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Sure gate keeper, if that makes you feel special. Actually, I don't care if other people dabble in my hobbies. It takes nothing from me so I couldn't care less.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

You can just say you wish it was socially acceptable to gate keep whatever hobby you're into OP.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Having a hobby be more wide spread and making it easier for people to learn is a good thing. I learned how to crochet thanks to youtube tutorials. Im sure i couldve learned it another way too, like having someone show me, but would i have actually done that? Probably not. I also like to draw and i learned a lot from youtube videos and the internet as a whole. Whats so bad about that? I do agree that cheap, low quality starter kits are not it. Most of the time you dont actually need all that as an absolute beginner and you can get higher quality materials for cheaper if you just get the bare minimum. Obviously none of this is going to make you a master of a craft, but thats not the point anyways. And it of course depends on the hobby too. But this kind of mindset just feels elitist. Theres so many crafts that are slowly dying out because nobody is learning them.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Why? If you can make something accessible without fundamentally changing the hobby what reason could you possibly have for not doing so? The soul and nuance doesn't go away because a few people bought an Amazon kit

by Important-Glove 2 months ago

Somewhat agree, but also disagree. Also would like to make the point just because you share a hobby with someone doesnt mean you're in it for the same reasons, or that you should be friends. There are often facets to most hobbies that can be improved that make things better for everyone. However theres also people that have the expectation that every hobby is like tv or videogames, and if you cant just pick it up with zero experience or effort applying yourself, that you should instantly be able to enjoy it to the level of seasoned enthusiasts. One of my hobbies requires a culmination of several skills that are hobbies unto themselves. Money can help with some parts but is no shortcut. Yet, you do get people trying to shortcut all the way through with zero effort and minimal spending, without fail they never seem to have good intents in trying to fit in. Its a rather niche and hyper-specific hobby so apologies on being light on details, rather not dox myself.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

They aren't.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Hockey is known as one of the highest floor hobbies compared to other sports with lower floors and we can all acknowledge how talented many of these athletes are. It should stay that way, even if it's known as one for the privileged.

by GreenReplacement 2 months ago

Is gatekeeping a valid opinion? 🤔

by heidenreichmari 2 months ago

I mean firstly I'd say anybody has a right to pursue any skill. Why would you want to gatekeep random skills? Don't be a karen. Secondly, I'd argue that every skill has a learning curve. Making the beginning of the curve more approachable doesn't make the people toward the end of the curve any less impressive. If anything it makes it more clear that it is impressive just how talented someone is at the height of that skill because the beginners are even further from it.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

If I understand correctly, you would like to keep hobbies as simple or as complicated as they are. Works for me honestly!

by Ernserbrice 2 months ago

Mmmh, from they few hobbies I have, the only thing that gets more accessible is the starting point. Cheap drones for example are getting cheaper and cheaper, you can get very good value on 2nd hand. But that‘s the deal with most hobbies, 2nd hand market is p2p mostly so companies are kinda pressured to pump-out cheaper products to actually sell something

by Capable-Customer5859 2 months ago

Yup. Gatekeeping to keep the "normies" out helps preserve the integrity of it. Often times people outside the hobby will try to barge in and demand things change to suit them, rather than walking away and understanding it's not for them.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

If I'm deep into a complicated hobby, I know it can be daunting to get started into it but gets much more fun with practice. I don't see anything wrong with encouraging people, but I can totally imagine some BS marketing around some dumbed down product emulating a complicated hobby. That I don't like, and I hope we as consumers wouldn't accept being patronized like that

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I will never play golf because it is for pretentious richies

by Anonymous 2 months ago

I can't imagine being upset about something being accessible to a wider range of people.

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Agreed. I'm into many mountain based outdoor activities. There is, and should be, barriers to entry. There's the fitness aspect, which automatically excludes many folks. People can easily get in over their heads emulating what they see others doing, putting themselves in significant danger. People often don't know what they're getting into, and nature is unforgiving. With proper training and experience, that risk can be reduced. There's also the damage overenthusiastic people might not know they're doing. Alpine environments are easily damaged, harming the reason people want to participate in those hobbies, reducing the experience for others, and possibly leading to stricter regulations.

by runolfsdottired 2 months ago

Which hobby did a poor kid best you at

by Anonymous 2 months ago

Isn't just gatekeeping ?

by elzabuckridge 2 months ago

Is your hobby gate keeping?

by toyphoebe 2 months ago

that would be a good way to make your hobby completely obsolete and forgotten within a couple decades.

by clementtromp 2 months ago

They don't need to be affordable, but they need to be welcoming to anyone who wants to engage with them

by InvestigatorMany5755 2 months ago

I can agree with some things for sure. Soccer is one that has been gaining a ton of interest from adults lately. I'm a big soccer player, and I have a group that plays pick up usually about 5 times a week. We often will have random people come up and try to join our game. Our group is pretty high skilled players and someone that is just getting in to it ruins the game for everyone else. I am happy to see people getting in to the sport and they absolutely should, but as a beginner, you need to try and play with other beginners, and not try and jump in with seasoned vets.

by alycia94 2 months ago

Whatever man. Billionares have RUINED my hobby of collecting 100-200 ft yachts I remember from childhood. They want to buy them all up and stick them at docks. Boats are meant to be driven!

by Anonymous 2 months ago

What hobby do you have in mind, OP, and how do you feel it's been dumbed down?

by Dangerous-Buyer-4400 2 months ago

Gatekeeping to a reasonable degree is how to keep a hobby alive tbqh.

by Accomplished-List 2 months ago