We should implement universal basic income not out of altruism but out of disdain, amirite?

This is more realistic than paying everyone enough to live a comfortable middle class life whether they work or not. Most people would quit, not enough tax revenue would be generated and the system would fail.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

No one has ever suggested that UBI would allow for a middle class lifestyle, it's about having enough for food and shelter and basic necessities.

by Ok-Environment 3 days ago

Wouldn't the price of all these things go up until some people could no longer afford them? Just because there is more money floating around doesn't make finite resources less finite, at least for resource-limited ones. Take housing, for example.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Depends on the good. Generally passthrough is not nearly as clean or predictable as that Also pricing often has very little to do with how finite a resource is (see digital goods)

by No-Recording 3 days ago

Yeah OP's system would never succeed. No reason to work, and some jobs are simply undesirable. We would face major shortages. A UBI is not a replacement, it's just supposed to help. And it wouldn't be us workers paying for the majority. It would be a pool system funded primarily by taxes corporations pay. Us wagies would only contribute a small amount like we do for SSI or pensions.

by Naive_Reading1942 3 days ago

It just needs to be enough so people can have food and shelter. It doesn't need to be a great life

by Better_Scientist 3 days ago

We already have programs to feed and shelter those in need. If you want your own house or apartment, you are going to have to work for that though.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Isnt that just unemployment?

by Anonymous 3 days ago

There are 260 million people over age 18 in the United States. $1,500 a month for each is $4.7 trillion a year. We collect about $5.5T a year in taxes. Of that, about 22% goes to social security, which we mostly wouldn't have with UBI now. So that's over a trillion in savings. 27% ($1.5T) goes to Medicare and health, which we'd still need. 15% ($0.825T) goes to interest on the national debt, which we would still need to pay obviously. Defense is about 15%, maybe we could slip that down to 9-10% or so ($0.55T). The remainder 20% is on roads, airports, science funding, misc whatever else. Might be able to save some of that. There's probably around $3.5T that is just non-negotiable unless we want society to collapse, but even that's close (fully removing social security for example). Which would leave $2T left over. Meaning we could maybe get by with around $500/mo UBI if we cut every single other thing to the bone. But then social security recipients are only getting $500/mo, which is not enough to live on for most of them. So we'd probably need to keep social security going, and really probably could then only afford like $300/mo or so. Which we're already generally doing more than that for the poorest amongst us -- no income tax, various food aid and other benefits, etc.

by Repulsive-Reason 3 days ago

Going up is a thing taxes can do. Collect $8T in taxes.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

That's why we go after capital gains and other "non-income" that keeps them so wealthy.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

UBI is taxed back once you make over a certain amount. It's intended to be a safety net, if you're working and making your own income then the UBI goes back into the system, so really you aren't out that 4.7 trillion a year.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

if you're working and making your own income then the UBI goes back into the system So the U in UBI doesn't stand for Universal?

by Repulsive-Reason 3 days ago

Literally just unemployment benefit lol

by Anonymous 3 days ago

This person slowly working their way back to the system we already have with means testing before qualifying for benefits and so on.

by Repulsive-Reason 3 days ago

Congratulations, you just reinvented the (wheel) unemployment insurance

by Anonymous 3 days ago

I mean, if you are getting an interest-free loan for a year, why wouldn't you at least buy a 1yr bond with it and collect the interest?

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Just don't call it universal then, it's just another type of welfare if it's targeted for low income individuals.

by Hoppevalerie 3 days ago

I can agree with that. It COULD be universal if they choose to opt in, though. That could be the difference.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Isn't that just welfare then?

by Party_Ad_2215 3 days ago

Call it whatever you like but not in the sense that UBI is given out to everyone and then clawed back. Welfare isn't provided unless you apply for it.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

This would lead to a massive boom in under the table work and tax evasion. Universal means everyone. Otherwise you're wasting time and effort means testing.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Not to mention that wealth equality will cause big time inflation. Landlords everywhere will rejoice when they realize everyone has an extra 1500 a month to pay in rent.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

It doesn't have to be that way. You can absolutely put a cap on the things businesses are allowed to do, you CAN cap inflation.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Well I wish they would do it lol

by Anonymous 3 days ago

I really like it when people who know more than me break down the numbers like this- it gives so much insight and perspective.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

We could also raise taxes. I don't know where the idea that everything has to be revenue neutral came to be. If we want something nice we can pay for it. We've done nothing but lower taxes and cut services for years and look where it's got us.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

And you'd always have 1500/mo to contribute to any household that takes you in if you needed a place to land on your feet

by Human-Regret 3 days ago

If I didn't have my military disability coming in each month, pretty much in the way you described, then my life would be WAY harder.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Exactly. UBI is a fine line. You want to give enough to help people, but not so much where you give them an incentive to not work.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Depends on wby and when its implemented. Many first world countries are now gerintocracies, by the time the people who have the neuraplasticity to become interested gain significant levels of power(ie in like 30+years) automation might make a significant proportion of the population(not majority, just enough to matter) unemployable(not a single job they can do, generates more economic value than it takes to keep them alive) and it might be necessary for other reasons.

by Sensitive-Taste 3 days ago

Omg that would help so much. Maybe one day but probably not my lifetime.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

That's already more than I make working full time. It would more than double my income. You're underestimating how life changing that amount of money would be for a huge number of people

by Plane_Pattern3378 3 days ago

That's the point of UBI. Underpaid adults would be able to get by. Despite making the median income, it would be pretty life changing for me as well.

by Naive_Reading1942 3 days ago

It wouldn't be. The market is pretty efficient. If you got another $18000/yr in free money, then after a brief sugar high, the sum total of your groceries, utilities, rent, tuition, etc. would cost $18000 more per year on average, and the economy and employment market would be in shambles because the Fed would be hiking rates to combat this inflation. We just ran this experiment. It's crazy how fast people forget.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Me who lives on less than $1500mo That is an income replacement lol

by Such-Account-6935 3 days ago

A good UBI would be one that covers all essentials like food water and shelter, anything beyond that gotta work. So if you want a nice steak you gotta get a job but you'll have rice and beans enough to live comfortably. You want a hobby, gotta work for it.

by HeronBackground3118 3 days ago

Exactly

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I agree. Ubi should be for sake of humanity

by Anonymous 2 days ago

While a cool idea in theory, you'd be running about 375 billion a month in expenses just for the usa. That equates to 4.5 trillion in a year, or basically all of the usas generated revenue. And with less people then working less revenue would be generated

by Bodedarien 2 days ago

Exactly, so this for every one over the age of 18. Though i think you could also taper it per indvidual based on anaual income. I.E if you make nothing you get the full 1500-2000 dollars. Then for every say 500-1000 dollars you make eover the annual the UBI gets reduced down to a minimum

by No_Bullfrog_9958 2 days ago

$1500/mo is $18k/yr, paid to everyone in the country that's $6.1T Estimated 2025 US spending is $6.9T, with $4.9T in revenue (we're running a $2T annual deficit) This proposal would raise spending to $13T and $8T annual deficit Our national debt is $37T, and this would double that every 4.5 years UBI seems like a neat idea, but we'd have to nearly double our tax revenue... I doubt many people would support that for an extra $18k/yr

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Wouldn't the world or the economy adapt the way it did when women entered the workforce? You use your be able to afford a house with one income. (Just to be clear, the problem isn't women entering the workforce, but the fact that prices when up)

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Unfortunately corpos only have 40 yachts and vacations every week because of people like this existing in such bulk quantities. If we freed these people from working the worker would be in demand not the job which means the worker has the upper hand. Something corpos cannot allow for the sake of their totally earned bonuses

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I'm genuinely curious how this would be implemented without wild inflation. People who don't want to work don't work. So demand for workers increase -> salary increase. Do we think the executives just make significantly less in this scenario? Or does the cost of everything go up?

by Anonymous 2 days ago

If you think "labor costs massively increase" is going to result in "no change, except rich people get less rich" then I've got some stuff to sell you.

by jocelyn53 2 days ago

I think with UBI salaries would get adjusted, so even if there is an increase it would be lower than expected.

by Fun-Housing-9451 2 days ago

Can you elaborate a little on how the salaries would be adjusted?

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I'm no expert, but I'd expect that if you get 6000$ a month for example and there is a 1500/month UBI, salaries would adjust to get closer to 4500/month, while with a worker shortage it may go up to 5500/month for example. Part of the reason is that with UBI there are fewer reasons to keep a high minimum wage for government, as everyone is already getting paid enough to live minimal wage. At the same time, more people will get to the desirable/comfortable level of income and there'd be less incentive to fight for better wage and conditions. For many, if their income and expenses stay the same, they'll not try to fight for better wage, even if they come. Also I think many jobs might be just seen as non profitable and be cut if they have higher wages.

by Fun-Housing-9451 2 days ago

So it would be an actual 1500 reduction in salary from the employer's end? As in if my salary is 72000K annually, it would be reduced to 54,000 and the government would pay me the other 18000K? Wouldn't this result in lower percentage based raises in the long term? 3% raise on 54,000 vs 72,000 is a difference of $500 Also I think many jobs might be just seen as non profitable and be cut if they have higher wages. This seems almost certain to happen. If it becomes cheaper to automate certain jobs instead of meeting salary demands, that is what will happen.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

This doesn't sound like an unpopular opinion this just sounds like a rant because you don't like someone at your job.

by Kenton58 2 days ago

What?

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I mean, yeah, that's one way to not solve the problem.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

No, people would absolutely still want things and would still work. Plenty of people work more than they need to to secure a better style of living. What makes you think that would change? You think people would want to live in the most basic of lifestyles? UBI would be enough to live, not enough to thrive.

by No_Substance_6605 2 days ago

That is just not true. Most people do not WANT to sit at home and do nothing 24/7 and in any proposal of a UBI, it would not be enough to live well off of by any means. People will still work, just not as many will still be impoverished while working.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Not necessarily. A job still has value if you want to make money to travel or have anything nicer than the bare minimum needed to survive. Also I love my job, if I didn't have to work I probably still would.

by MathematicianFun477 2 days ago

The person I responded to said that UBI wouldn't work because no one would work if they received UBI, I argued that I would still go to work.

by MathematicianFun477 2 days ago

Oh ok yeah uta not an either or. Everyone gets it hahaha. It lifts everyone up. I surely wouldn't quit my job but my wife could quit hers

by Logical_Building2617 2 days ago

tbh if the jobs were less unpleasant than they are now, people might enjoy working them. there's lots of people who are lonely and want to interface with other people every day; they'd be happy working as a barista if it was a calm and supportive environment instead of a stressful corporate environment where you're barely making ends meet. frankly the sheer volume of "coffeeshop AU" fanfictions is a testament to how many people fantasize about working in a friendly local coffeeshop.

by armani93 2 days ago

I worked retail for 7 years, I actually liked the job but hated the hours and low pay. I wouldn't mind working it part time if I got some sort of UBI

by Life-Shelter-5707 2 days ago

Exactly, I like working; it's unusually coworkers and management that ruin the experience

by joanalemke 2 days ago

So people want to make good money for providing no real economic value and want things for free as well

by No_Durian 2 days ago

$1500 a month isn't even enough to cover rent in many places.

by Gloomy-Umpire-1100 2 days ago

When did I mention anything about 1500 dollars?

by jonatandickinso 2 days ago

Here in Brazil, we have the profession of 'frentista', a guy who simply fills up your car with gas. This doesn't exist anywhere else in the world, and honestly, every time I've tried to understand why, I haven't found the answer. The truth is that the system prefers to create useless jobs with no productivity whatsoever, rather than educate people to have useful professions or simply let them exist without a job.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

The most pointless thing ever IMO. They keep voting to keep that position in place because they don't want 1000s of jobs to disappear overnight.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Oregon has self serve gas now, but there are still frentistas.

by Sweet-Masterpiece846 2 days ago

Oregon actually passed a law in the last few years that allows self-serve now. There are still attendants, but most people just do it themselves anyway.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

"Here in Brazil, we have the profession of 'frentista', a guy who simply fills up your car with gas. This doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.." What? We have them too. They are called "gas station attendants".

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I like the Brazilian word better. Frentista sounds like a fancy friend. Friend-ista!

by Sweet-Masterpiece846 2 days ago

I was one of those people. In NJ. The owner did not want us there, but the law insisted. I also still wash windows like a boss.

by Major_Try2677 2 days ago

What this have to do with UBI??

by Logical_Building2617 2 days ago

If we've reached a point in civilization where we can create useless jobs, honestly, it's better to just leave these people at home than waste their time.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Weird that it's considered a separate profession and not just considered working at a gas station. I'd expect it'd be a job employees rotate through day to day.

by Lelandjaskolski 2 days ago

This is the most bizarre part, these guys' job is to stand around for 8 hours waiting for someone to come and fill up the car (and to make matters worse, there's usually one guy at each gas pump)

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I don't think its unpopular. Giving people the minimum just to survive is enough. Food, water, 1 bedroom flat and having access to the internet. If people want more than that, then the opportunity to live outside the bare minimum will require you to work Yes, I think having access to the internet in 2025 is a requirement, everything in society is done through the internet

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Yeah sorry I'm not going to pay a bazillion in taxes to pay for everyone else's debauchery. UBI should come with a work attachment. Volunteer, private, or the government gives you some easy job like cleaning the town. Alcoholic Joe needs to be in rehab or AA to get his UBI.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Volunteer, private, or the government gives you some easy job like cleaning the town. If this is done properly, then it will not feel like a job. If it doesn't feel like a job(chores), then more people will be willing to put more effort and care at doing their tasks properly while being happy.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

We should stick to the fact that not everyone has the ability to work and we shouldn't leave them to die.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

99.9% of people have the ability to work

by No_Durian 2 days ago

AI might change their ability to find work in the coming years.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

UBI is popular. Why it's implemented really doesn't matter. All evidence points to it not making people less productive. So sure, whatever reason you have for supporting it is fine with me. It's not going to have the results you seem to think, but it would make things better nonetheless.

by HolidayAnt6922 2 days ago

It's not going to have the results you seem to think, but it would make things better nonetheless. This is probably the most respectable stance I've seen in here.

by CommercialSpirit9064 2 days ago

What evidence?

by Inevitable_Tap5341 2 days ago

Can we just have disdain for you, OP and move on? Seems simpler.

by Relative_Sky4482 2 days ago

If everyone gets 1000$ a month, no one does. The market will respond to everyone having more money to pay for things and increase prices and rent accordingly since demand never changes. If you want to make things more affordable there are two options, decrease demand or increase supply. UBI will do nothing for the lower class, will make the middle class poorer, and the rich, well they'll just weather the price increase because they can. UBI doesn't lift people up to the same level, it brings people down to the same level.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I agree that it wouldn't magically solve our issues, but treating "the market" like some inevitable inhuman force is a bit silly when it's just a way of describing how humans work with the resources they have

by CommercialSpirit9064 2 days ago

People with more resources use those resources, devaluing them in the process. That's literally inflation.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Yeah, that's why we need Universal Basic Services. Gas, power, housing, basic food and perhaps a bicycle or something should be guaranteed.

by herman62 2 days ago

UBI is one of those things that sound great until you scrutinize it.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

UBI is an inevitability. Anyone who thinks otherwise lacks a basic understanding of our socioeconomic system. TLDR; Our society and economy rely on people to work in order to buy things. They work to produce things. If people don't work, then our society and economy collapse. It either collapses permanently or reforms into something where work isn't a pillar of that system. Full automation is upon us, and we haven't figured out properly the minimum wage system (which is the precursor of UBI).

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I never said it wasn't.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

sound great until you scrutinize it UBI is a great thing. Let me state it like this: The alternative to UBI is much, much worse. So any criticism you have of UBI pales in comparison to the alternative.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Yeah, no. I work for a living. So can you. I don't believe healthcare should be tethered to employment. And basic shelter should be a right too. But just receiving checks each month for doing nothing? Nope.

by Dewayne83 2 days ago

It's the same thing though. The government could force companies/people to provide healthcare, livable conditions, food, etc, all the necessities to live. That provides the necessities but removes choice from the person receiving them, and is ripe for corruption and issues because the providers are building for the government, not the end users. Paying the people the same amount gives them choice. They may choose to be reckless and stupid. Pros and cons to each, but they intend to solve the same problem.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

There is a overarching fear of there being less and less work to be done with advancements in automation. I, too, believe everyone should earn their keep principally, but I am also not ignoring the plethora of jobs that will be eliminated in the coming years and decades.

by Linwoodmante 2 days ago

Yeah, I mean if UBI is specifically a solution to massive job loss to the AI and automation, that's another thing. It might be something we are forced to consider in the future.

by Dewayne83 2 days ago

Receiving money do you can build a business or have a safety net or just so your wife doesn't have to work is stupid huh. To hell with living a quality life huh everyone should work long hard hours for low pay bc it builds character huh This is why you are poor

by Logical_Building2617 2 days ago

Based

by AirlineDirect5615 2 days ago

Yikes

by No_Durian 2 days ago

So you and a young kid with no experience working the same job?? Bro 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

by Logical_Building2617 2 days ago

Whatever helps you give me coins

by Anonymous 2 days ago

There isn't enough money for UBI. The math has been done.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Speaking of child support.. what happens there? Have a plan, boss, or is it still someone else's problem?

by Major_Try2677 2 days ago

Y'all forgot about Andrew Yang for president?

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I'm not doubling my tax burden so miserable people can be useless too.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

If the ENTIRE United States budget (6 trillion dollars) were spent solely on UBI (so...no defense/military, no FBI, no health insurance, no DOJ, no infrastructure, no government jobs, etc.), every adult in the US would get ~$1900 per month. [6 trillion divided by 260 million] Which, is a decent amount of money per person. But, the point is, for people who think UBI is possible, hopefully you can see that even if we spent every dollar in the entire budget on UBI (which isn't possible), it still wouldn't be more per person than what you already make if you make ~$12 per hour at your job. I'm not saying 2k per month wouldn't be LIFE CHANGING for many people, but I am saying that using the obviously non-sensical scenario that the entire US yearly budget is spent on UBI, it still wouldn't be enough for someone to afford a "middle class lifestyle" that people are assuming.

by BroadCapital4512 2 days ago

Would everything just rise in price similar to inflation

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Basically what you are saying is get rid of the losers from society. I agree.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I think something really important about how UBI would work is that it would reframe work. For the first couple years you may have a lot of unemployment by the people you describe, but UBI should be enough to live on, but not enough to live WELL on. So those people would want to pick up a job at least part-time, but I think standards would be higher and it would reframe how the work is seen in a positive way.

by ewaldcormier 2 days ago

Been saying this for a loooong time. Like, yes, please take my money and pay worthless people to stay out of my way. Not enough to go out in public and be in my way more — just enough that I don't have to see them and can interact with people who want to be a productive member of society.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

UBI wouldn't do anything but drive up prices, you'd need to work even harder to keep pace.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

You're seething at people who do not need to cross certain check marks to enjoy their life. Your parents probably told you that you need to do X and Y to have any value. Ask yourself why you feel the need to accomplish certain things or work so hard to be happy.

by mikayla81 2 days ago

Can someone please explain to me how it would work though? Since we pay the government taxes, wouldn't lowering taxes (and/or the increasing the standard deduction) be sort of equivalent to UBI, at least for those who work and pay taxes? How does the government pay us while we still pay it? I've never understood HOW it could work but I've always liked the idea of it as a broke person who works 2 jobs.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

interesting take. thank you.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Does that mean if I'm working I get free money too?

by Special-Weekend 2 days ago

I think UBI will explode inflation where the UBI can be spent. That said, the logic you propose out of spite intrigues me more than the bumper sticker explanations that the holier than thou altruistic people yell about

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Some people being more trouble than they're worth is something hard to internalize for many people. Instead they want (need?) to fix these people and make them be better! So we can't just shuffle them off into a reasonably-priced holding pen, even if it would make logical sense to do so.

by Hilpertcristoba 2 days ago

I would 100% quit my job if it was even remotely livable on that income. That's the issue. And I'm not even the bitchy worker, but if I can survive and have a roof over my head with a few amenities without working I would 100% do it

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I agree with the sentiment, but there is a problem. Free money = inflation. Handing out $1500 to $3000 monthly to everyone follows the same logic as " if we just printed money and gave everyone a million dollars, then we could all live like millionaires." UBI only works if you shut down every single social service and replace them with a monthly cheque. This sounds good on paper, and it could save money, but it is inhumane, and will literally kill people. The kind of people who need social services are not competent enough to manage their own affairs, and would not have the basic intelligence/skills/knowledge to use their monthly cheque appropriately and manage their own food, shelter, and housing. There is a reason we have people that do this for them.

by connerstrosin 2 days ago

You should try visiting the UK and seeing how this experiment worked out

by wilhelm55 2 days ago

Only going to cost the federal government another four trillion dollars a year. I say wait until people start getting replaced by automation.

by Friendly-Emu4238 1 day ago

This is a unpopular weird opinion.

by Anonymous 1 day ago

People should be allowed to live boring but completely safe and secure lives doing nothing. If they want to live more interesting lives, if they want to have a more fulfilling life, if they want to create something, if they want to have the next iPhone or go on vacations or whatever... THEN they can work. You shouldn't be worried about leaving a job because you'd be destitute or left without healthcare. You should be free to start a business or shop around for work. You should be free to get an education and get a better job. And having UBI and universal healthcare means you can get rid of Social Security, Unemployment, Medicaid, Medicare, Pensions, everything... No more panhandling. No more homelessness. You don't have to figure out if somebody is disabled enough to not work - you just give everybody the same thing. You don't have to figure out if somebody is buying food or booze with their UBI. If they're on the street, you assign them a social worker who controls their money for them.

by ShallotPrimary 1 day ago

A UBI wouldn't solve any problems. People claim that most people would work even if they don't have to, but I don't believe it. I got laid off recently, and find that if unemployment benefits lasted forever, I'd be just fine never working another day in my life. I've never been out of work more than a month or two before now, but to me this settles the question. I just don't see why people would be driven to work if they don't have to. And of course, if people don't work, the whole thing would collapse.

by Britney26 1 day ago

What you are describing is unsustainable at a faster rate than our current unsustainable trajectory…

by WonderfulAd5315 1 day ago

Wow what a really long-winded way to say that you don't understand how UBI, economics, aging working populations, and basic human behavior works. Tbh you could have saved yourself a lot of time by just giving us the incredibly tiny list of things you do understand

by bart17 1 day ago

UBI will only result in corporations raising prices, as virtually everyone will have more income, and corporations are greedy. Be careful what you wish for.

by Anonymous 1 day ago

If you implemented UBI every company would jack their prices up since everybody now has more money and they all want a piece of it. You'd wind up no better off in the end.

by Anonymous 1 day ago

Maybe we should lower taxes instead of incentivizing being lazy and dependent on government

by Anonymous 1 day ago

Why should people who make life worse for everyone deserve a free ride? If they can't pull their weight, maybe they don't deserve a paycheck—maybe they deserve a kick out the door, not a handout.

by macejkoviconie 1 day ago

UBI will never work. All you are doing is setting a price floor for goods and I get the grand ideas but the reality this is would basically be communism. You will end up with a few people or party in power and they are doling out just enough to keep the plebs alive.

by Anonymous 1 day ago