+51 Paradoxes are dumb, amirite?

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

Counter-example: This sentence is false. What is the simple solution?

by bertcummerata 2 days ago

It's in reference to another sentence, which is, in fact, false.

by CarefulElephant2407 2 days ago

The simple solution is that the paradox only exists because of the strict boundaries in place due to the nature of our own language. The only reason that paradox exists is because of the constraints of human language. There is no deeper meaning to it, just that we have made up words that are direct contradictions of eachother and can format them into a nonsensical sentence.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

It is deeper than that. The issue is that you cannot construct a language in which you can communicate that concept without a paradox.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

For what reason would that concept need to be communicated? It's a closed loop that serves no purpose to be answered.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

The point is that "paradoxes" are not just fun brain teasers, they are a core part of mathematical logic, and something that gives us deep insight into what "logic" is and how it works. Is it worth for humans to think about and understand mathematical logic? If you answer yes, then paradoxes are important, if you answer no, that's a whole different discussion.

by nelsschaden 2 days ago

But it does; paradoxes help to show the flaws in (in)formal systems (you already mentioned natural languages), and to explore the boundaries of such systems.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

It doesn't matter. It's a concept (really, a proposition) that is paradoxical independent of language.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Well I guess if you take that concept higher up to something more tangible like for instance, how the universe could either exist or not exist with each eventuality being as likely as eachother then I can start to understand the usefulness of thinking about that type of thing. I'm not sure if that makes sense in the contect of that sentence but in my head I see a connection.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

And apparently my grasp on the human language is poor because I said the same sentence twice in a row

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

Wow, okay then; way better answer than I was expecting. Well said OP, fair enough.

by bertcummerata 2 days ago

It's good that you brought it up though, because it led to an interesting discussion.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

The whole point of paradoxes is to point out flaws in systems. If you say this machine only produces blue or red widgets, then a red/blue widget comes out, the red/blue widget is a paradox. The paradox points out your initial assumptions are wrong and need work to account for it.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

That's a contradiction, not a paradox. A paradox is something which breaks a system of logic. Famously, does the set of all sets which do not contain themselves contain itself?

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Paradoxes are not dumb. They are a consequence of Gödel's incompleteness theorem.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Well, I stretched it a bit ... Gödel does not actually prove that each formal system contains paradoxes (statements which contradict themselves), but that each system contains statements which cannot be proven inside the system itself. Gödel essentially proved that it is impossible to create a formal system in which you can prove all statements that you can express in that system. (English is not my native language, excuses for the clumsy formulating)

by Anonymous 2 days ago

You expressed it well! And that's very interesting and i'll for sure look deeper into it. Thanks for giving me something to look up on.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

To understand a paradox one must become a paradox!

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

I sort of agree because you say most, but there are real scientific paradoxes that we just straight up don't have an answer for. Quantum superposition and weird stuff like that. Schrodinger's bitch ass cat.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Maybe I should have been more specific, as the types of paradoxes i'm referring to are those made up with no reference to reality and simply exist because somebody wanted to create a fake scenario where something contradicts itself. Those paradoxes that you mentioned are more like questions that have an answer but we don't have the means of answering yet

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

Or the grandfather paradox comes to mind as well.

by Strict_Badger 2 days ago

Achilles and the tortoise which is just plain nonsensical.

by That_Substance 2 days ago

Yeah that one seemed to have an obvious answer but I guess it's made to be an analogy for infinite and finite numbers. Albeit I think to express it using a tortoise and a guy chasing the tortoise isn't a good way to get the point across.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

I don't know if this one falls under that category, though. I think I once heard it used as a serious argument against the possibility of time travel. You could say that it's made up, because we can't travel back in time, but we don't yet know if it's completely impossible. If we assume that time travel could exist, then how do we solve this paradox? What if you did kill your grandfather? Is the solution simply that time travel is not possible or is it something else? Like I said, it's "made up" in the sense that it isn't a real situation, but I don't think I would write it off as one of the paradoxes that OP was talking about.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

"Meow" (Oh! She must be alive!)

by Expert-Expression953 2 days ago

Hahaha, the funny thing is, that whole thing wasn't meant to be serious. It was a professor pointing out the absurdity of quantum super position and people took the cat analogy serious.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Right? I can't believe people are out here genuinely thinking the cat is in real life purrgatory

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

So here's one for you: if you "hear" the cat, have you not actually "observed" it, in the broader sense of the word, thereby forcing it into one state or the other?

by Expert-Expression953 2 days ago

As far as I understood it, any observation or interaction will effect it's state.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Hahaha, you are way over thinking it. It could be a rat or hamster and the point could still be made.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Quantum physicist here. Just like to chime in to quickly say that quantum superposition and Schrodinger's cat are not paradoxes. They are super weird for sure, and defy our common-sense notions of reality, but they are not inconsistent in any way. They are quite well understood to be real parts of quantum physics, and are replicated in laboratory experiments around the world every single day.

by Handhannah 2 days ago

Verbal Paradoxes are an appeal...

by PrestigiousToday5157 2 days ago

im sensing you pondering too deeply on this

by Legal-Traffic 2 days ago

set theory would disagree

by Calliegutmann 2 days ago

What is set theory?

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

Let me do some research on those things and i'll get back to you!

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

Basically: (from layman) its a part of math that tries to conceptualize math concepts. So like the concept of infinity which is a paradox in itself. But having tools to understand it is really helping out quantum computing.

by Calliegutmann 2 days ago

That's interesting. I think concept of infinity is at it's core pretty confusing. Is it a real thing? A concept that works in theory but not reality? The idea of a countable infinity to me never seemed to make sense either because isn't infinity... infinite? Which I guess is uncountable infinity? All of this stuff is above my understanding but i'm sure it makes sense to some smarter people. If it's helping out quantum computing then it can't be useless and maybe these seemingly unanswerable questions are actually what will lead to the deepest answers of the universe.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 2 days ago

it is a "thing" but not a number like 10. thats where understanding and conceptualizing paradoxes help.

by Calliegutmann 2 days ago

I know someone who lied about everything who said all paradoxes are dumb

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Like what

by According-Fondant209 2 days ago

The liar paradox, the grandfather paradox, the barbershop paradox

by Practical_Pipe_7170 1 day ago

What about Simpson's paradox

by According-Fondant209 1 day ago

So yeah this is where my original point falls short. I guess i'm specifically referring to that one type of paradox where people make stuff up. Statistical paradoxes are very real and serve a purpose.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 1 day ago

Well I fail to see how it is a preference and not an opinion. But I guess to some people paradoxes are fun, but to me they are dumb.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 1 day ago

Maybe that's where the issue lies. There are various types of paradoxes, some useful and some that seem to have been made to jump on the bandwagon. Almost like paradoxes have become a caricature of themselves, or maybe people like me can't understand them enough to find them worthy of thinking about.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 1 day ago

A paradox is like a perpetual motion machine. It doesn't exist, but it is important to know what it is because its purpose is to test the boundaries of what's possible and what's impossible. It's important to define clearly what a perpetual motion machine is, so when someone claims they've built one, we can recognize it for the nonsense it likely is. So if something you suggestion contain a paradox in it. You know it is nonsense.

by Anonymous 1 day ago

A good way of visualising the usefulness of paradoxes. To me they were just dumb meaningless questions but when used as a way to question logic they seem more useful.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 1 day ago

Exactly, using it to question logic is useful. Just like how we have a list of fallacy. Treat them as something like a list of "common mistakes" people made. I don't need to mentally run through all those fallacy and prove it one by one. I can simply look up if my logic is similar to one of the fallacy, I know I need to fix it. This make it a great tools for communication.

by Anonymous 1 day ago

That's a pretty sophomoric perspective. The paradoxes you've heard of are simplified "nursery-rhyme" examples to introduce you to the concept of a paradox: a logical search for truth which may have no meaningful answer. There are many important paradoxes who's pondering has advanced human understanding of quantum mechanics, relativity, philosophy, theology, mathematics, game theory, and the nature of life itself. Take for example, the existence of a supreme being. How was the universe created? Through natural processes like physics, or by an omniscient creator? If natural processes, every breakthrough we make in understanding these processes only leads to more mysteries. It is difficult to believe that we could ever understand all of the physics that governs the behavior of the universe. If by the actions of some all-powerful creator, how was the creator created? Or an explanation of time. What is time? Why can we only move forward through time, never backwards or standing still? How is time relative to physical space? (Theory of relativity?) If time is relative why is "time travel" not possible? Or is it? If you try to answer these questions in any serious way, you will find that they "resemble" your more familiar paradoxes to such a high degree that they can aptly be called paradoxes. Specifically, pondering them carefully leads us to believe that no logical answer is possible. But the main point: understanding the concept of "paradox" helps us investigate these important questions, and many others, and understand those parts of the answers that we can already understand.

by Expert-Expression953 1 day ago

Well said!

by Expert-Expression953 1 day ago

The impossibility is kind of the point.

by levi03 1 day ago

I get what you're saying, but it doesn't apply to every scenario. For example, the twin paradox is science and not language. The Kelly brothers demonstrated this (on a small scale) during Nasa's twin study. It is a paradox because our simple minds struggle to understand these concepts of the universe.

by Devinrempel 1 day ago

Okay. And correlation is lame. Your opinion on the matter doesn't bear any weight on it. Paradoxes exist. Ooooooo

by Anonymous 1 day ago

Find me a paradox that actually exists in reality and can be tested

by Practical_Pipe_7170 1 day ago

Paradoxes aren't testable. They are inherent presentations of reality. Do you seriously not understand this? Actual paradox that exists and has been scientifically studied, not "tested": the Great Basin Bristlecone Pine lives on the upper reaches of mountain ranges, often exceeding the treeline in the harshest of conditions. Despite this, the more extreme the environment, the longer-lived the trees. That is a real paradox that exists in reality and you just have to deal with it.

by Anonymous 1 day ago

Bro came with receipts. Fair enough, i'm still allowed to think they're dumb though.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 1 day ago

I honestly don't care if you didn't figure it out. You're stubborn so I'm snarky.

by Anonymous 1 day ago

Well it's not stubborn to stand by my opinion, it would be stubborn to refute the things that you said which made sense. Maybe I am dumb for thinking they are dumb? But i'm still entitled to my opinion either way.

by Practical_Pipe_7170 1 day ago

So you admit that your premise was not only false, but that you're openly accepting the cognitive dissonance of your original claim and the fact that real, actual paradoxes do exist? Yeah that's literally the definition of stubborn. "I still think they're dumb" like cmon.

by Anonymous 1 day ago