Look at it this way. An apology without behavioral change is only apologizing for being caught in the act, not apologizing for the act.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Even for involuntary actions that don't have an immediate solution to change behavior?

by Careful-Jackfruit 2 days ago

You've invented a situation to disagree over as if people are out there demanding apologies and changed behavior for involuntary actions

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I didn't invent this situation. It's not good to assume that everybody is reasonable.

by Careful-Jackfruit 2 days ago

No one's assuming you're reasonable here

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Not talking about myself. There are unreasonable people out there that demand behavioral changes even if the person cannot change their behavior.

by Careful-Jackfruit 2 days ago

Habits can be changed (even involuntary actions in this context) if someone really wants too. So I think it's fair judge of how sorry someone is by how much effort they put into changing.

by Kooky_Cable464 2 days ago

It's a problem for me because it actually happened in my life and it's weird to be around people that speak rudely but involuntarily. This person apologized because they did indeed feel remorseful however, we don't know how to work on changing this behavior. And I'm not talking about people voluntarily doing bad things they will forever be shunned. I'm talking about people requiring others to make changes when they don't know if the behavior was involuntary or not.

by Careful-Jackfruit 2 days ago

You're the one who needs to change your behaviour and you're the one in the wrong. Getting offended because someone is saying rude things in their sleep is something you need to work on. There is nothing wrong with them doing that.

by Kooky_Cable464 2 days ago

It's unreasonable for you too tell someone you feel weird about this kind of behaviour. Do you not get that? Telling someone you feel weird about something like talking in their sleep that they neurologically have no control over makes you an asshole. If you felt weird because someone was overweight for example, do you think it would be reasonable for you to tell them that and let them apologise to you?

by Kooky_Cable464 2 days ago

I like the way you put that. A changing behavior could be as simple as being aware of your actions involuntary or not. That actually levels even the unreasonable requests to change behavior.

by Careful-Jackfruit 2 days ago

I think the request for changed behaviour is more about proof the person is attempting to do better. I don't think anyone is looking for a complete 180 on learned behaviours or habits but conscious efforts to make changes means a lot more than simply acknowledging the wrong you did. Depending on the original offence too, lack of change from the wrongdoer can also be a clear sign that the hurt that occurred will happen again, which for the victim might mean it's not safe to be around the weongdoer until they can eradicate that behaviour.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

I absolutely agree. But I also think that genuine remorse is valid as well even without changed behavior. Knowing that someone is in the situation that they themselves cannot change but must apologize to others for being inconvenient happens.

by Careful-Jackfruit 2 days ago

I think you underestimate human autonomy and exaggerate the saying. Telling yourself it needs to be immediate and absolute so you are convinced it is impossible to live up to. Absolving you of any responsibility. I have never heard the expectation of "changed behavior" to be immediate for most issues. But at minimum, a little effort. Recognition of the mistake before it has to be pointed out. A step in the right direction. This expectation usually comes after someone repeats the same mistake and gives an insincere apology. When my kid says, "I didn't mean to!" I respond with, "you didn't mean not to, either." Meaning their indifference was a choice, too! Yes, we have habits, but habits are created. We are also in control of our lives, behaviors, and actions. I acknowledge there is an insignificant number of people who aren't, but for most people, if they're repeatedly required to apologize, they just don't care enough to change. Then, use "habits" or "unconscious patterns" to make themselves feel better about their poor behavior and actions towards others. An apology isn't real if you have to apologize for the same thing over and over. It is insulting to the recipient. Be deliberate in your actions and behavior.

by omareichert 2 days ago

Forgiveness isn't a right. If you want my forgiveness, do what I expect or keep moving.

by Anonymous 2 days ago

Based

by Careful-Jackfruit 2 days ago